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S&C UnderGround >> Squats - hip drive vs upper back drive


4/12/13 10:44 AM
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Blunderhooks
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Which form do you fellas think is safer and more effective - Rippetoe's hip drive (lead with the hips out of the hole, pushing them up, not forward) or upper back drive (back and neck into the bar first, then push hips forward instead of up - if I understand correctly - favored by Donnie Thompson, Louie Simmons etc)?

I am a beginner and have been doing starting strength, so I learned the Rippelytoes way. But I read about the other approach and tried it today and it felt more explosive, natural and easier.

Is this one of those things where one thing works for some people and not for others? Or the hip approach is just best for beginners and that's why Rip teaches it that way? Or simply one is right and one is wrong? Phone Post 3.0
4/12/13 10:49 AM
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jeremy hamilton
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The only people advocating the way Louie Simmons says to squat are people who lift in multi ply gear.

If that is what you want to do then you should read everything Louie writes. If it isn't then look elsewhere.
4/12/13 11:19 AM
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JamesDean57
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Here are 5 good videos on squatting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ME8gEN54Ao&list=PLD7BE939BB32B4CAB&index=1
4/12/13 12:01 PM
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dc1000
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Blunderhooks - Which form do you fellas think is safer and more effective - Rippetoe's hip drive (lead with the hips out of the hole, pushing them up, not forward) or upper back drive (back and neck into the bar first, then push hips forward instead of up - if I understand correctly - favored by Donnie Thompson, Louie Simmons etc)?

I am a beginner and have been doing starting strength, so I learned the Rippelytoes way. But I read about the other approach and tried it today and it felt more explosive, natural and easier.

Is this one of those things where one thing works for some people and not for others? Or the hip approach is just best for beginners and that's why Rip teaches it that way? Or simply one is right and one is wrong? Phone Post 3.0
When I go rips way I end up doing a squat that looks more like a good morning.

I trained that for a while and got up to a respectable number.


But can't go the high bar big chest hip forward way with much weight.

My oly coach says rips way is stupid. But that's because it has little translation to the clean

I'm torn as well. I can move more weight with rips way Phone Post 3.0
4/12/13 12:13 PM
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Blunderhooks
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Thanks drab and DC, helpful Phone Post 3.0
4/12/13 12:14 PM
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Blunderhooks
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Drab typo = dean Phone Post 3.0
4/12/13 1:07 PM
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Blunderhooks
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btw I got thinking about this after watching this video.

4/12/13 5:44 PM
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surf2live
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Depends what you are squatting for. If you are squatting just to squat big weights then Rip's way will work just fine. If you want it to help with olympic lifts then a high bar back squat where you stay more upright and push the hips forward would be the way to go. Neither way is "wrong", both are correct for different goals.
4/12/13 10:07 PM
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Kroger39
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I don't really understand what the Candito guy is talking about. "Hip drive" is about driving your hips up not back. I don't get what he's trying to say. The example he shows of a low bar squat looks exactly what Rippetoe is talking about. Is he against sitting back? I don't get it.

I think the clip he uses is taken out of context and is a misrepresentation of what Rippetoe is actually promoting. Here is the video that snippet comes from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yha2XAc2qu8

The rep that is used as an example is not how your regular squats should look. This is a coaching video focusing on a specific point. For what Rippetoe was trying to coach it's fine. The whole point is hip drive. Once you figure that out, feel it, then you can work on getting the other pieces in line.

Rippetoe addresses the back angle issue at around the 2:00 mark of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kawBY5p29fQ
4/13/13 12:32 AM
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Blunderhooks
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Kroger, thanks. I've embedded the second video you mention here.

 

4/13/13 10:51 AM
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dc1000
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Blunderhooks -

 

Kroger, thanks. I've embedded the second video you mention here.

 

Did he say "that forward shit is what ruins the hip dive"? Hahaha

My problem is that I can send my hips all the way up with out moving the bar. Just changes the angle of my back and then I end up doing a good morning Phone Post 3.0
4/24/13 5:32 PM
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supersaiyan
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back straight and drive with the hips UPWARDS
4/26/13 10:29 PM
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molsonman
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4/27/13 12:16 PM
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ArthurKnoqOut
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Rip's way has always made me go "huh?" even before I took a single kinesiology class
5/8/13 8:34 PM
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Squatdog
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'How to Turn your Squat into a Good Morning', by Mark Rippetoe
5/9/13 1:06 AM
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The Gunslinger
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Part of this is knowing the difference between lifting in gear and raw. The other part is knowing different squatting styles. Last is knowing the difference between teaching cues in order to get people to perform the lift in the style they teach. People who can't separate these things and then argue over them don't deserve to have an opinion on the matter. Many coaches and even 'good' coaches have this problem. They good good at teaching one style in one way... Then, in their mind, it becomes the only way. The thing is that to be are really good coach you should have an understanding of various styles and ways to teach. What this does is allow you not make stupid statements like certain builds not being able to squat (or shouldn't squat) or not be able to make depth. They can, it just might now be in the style or way you teach.

5/9/13 8:49 AM
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supersaiyan
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I was always taught old school to drive with the hips and to find a point to look up at on a ceiling/above area and followed it. as that keeps your back straight and aligned through the motion.
5/9/13 11:19 AM
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scottbut
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I've been using the techniques described in Jonnie Canditos video for my past 2 squat sessions and they have made a massive difference. I used to use the Rippetoe method of breaking the hips first then the knees and basically anything approaching my 5RM would result in a 'squat marking' and a lot of lower back strain. Following Canditos advice of breaking the knees slightly before sitting back and down has given me a much more efficient squat with no lower back strain, I can see me breaking my previous PRs very soon, I'm using 531 atm so it will be a while before I'm back up there, but using Wendlers 1RM formula I've already smashed my previous best. Phone Post 3.0
5/9/13 2:44 PM
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The Gunslinger
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Congrats, you've found what works for you.
5/9/13 3:24 PM
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scottbut
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*Squat morning

I hope so because I've really struggled to get my squat up to a respectable number, here's to getting 315 for reps! Phone Post 3.0
5/10/13 12:52 AM
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OregonChaelClosedDueToBandWagonCrash
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Never really though about it. I just go up and down lol Phone Post 3.0
5/10/13 3:46 AM
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acamp76144
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Sub Phone Post 3.0
5/11/13 10:03 AM
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Blunderhooks
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scottbut - I've been using the techniques described in Jonnie Canditos video for my past 2 squat sessions and they have made a massive difference. I used to use the Rippetoe method of breaking the hips first then the knees and basically anything approaching my 5RM would result in a 'squat marking' and a lot of lower back strain. Following Canditos advice of breaking the knees slightly before sitting back and down has given me a much more efficient squat with no lower back strain, I can see me breaking my previous PRs very soon, I'm using 531 atm so it will be a while before I'm back up there, but using Wendlers 1RM formula I've already smashed my previous best. Phone Post 3.0
How do you come back up though (you are talking about just the way down I think? Sorry if I'm being dumb I'm a beginner!) Phone Post 3.0
5/11/13 10:21 AM
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scottbut
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Tbh I don't over think that part too much, I concentrate on keeping everything tight and driving the bar with my upper back, driving the floor with my heels and my hips forward when I get past the halfway point. Keeping everything tight throughout, grip, shoulders, abs, back, backside and legs.

I'm no more than an intermediate lifter myself so still learning all the time. Phone Post 3.0
5/18/13 5:39 AM
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molsonman
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