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S&C UnderGround >> Squats - hip drive vs upper back drive


5/21/13 11:00 PM
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Seemore Butts
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Not trying to bash rippetoe, but what kind of credentials does he have? I know CF loves to ride his jock...but it seems to me this guy gets way too much credit. He doesn't seem to be very active in the RAW, single ply, or multiply powerlifting world.

My opinion is.... you squat with what technique works best for your body type. I prefer a straight back, some guys prefer a good morning style squat. One technique isn't better than the other if the lifter in question is killing it on the platform.

I watched Greg Panora squat 750 raw this weekend. His back was completely hunched over coming out of the pocket. You mean to tell me some internet coach is going to tell him his form is incorrect? Give me a break. He killed it. Same goes for others who actually compete, and perform, and kill it on the platform. Nothing against Rippetoe, but his gym isn't producing the best powerlifters at the moment (that I know of).
5/22/13 2:21 PM
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None So Blind
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^^^ Read up on Rip and Pendlay and who they coached in the 90's, I believe it was.

But then again, read the name of Rip's book. Read it again. And again. And so on, until you realize why asking "what champs has he trained" is not a relevant question. It's almost like asking one of the country's best high school science teachers about how many Nobel Prize winners he's produced...

Here's a quote from Rip's forum on the matter:

Quote Originally Posted by OCG"
"Which makes me wonder something else that is occasionally brought up elsewhere. Rip have you ever had a lifter with even the potential to win major Olympic lifting meets, even only in the US? Something I've seen brought up elsewhere is "Well Rip hasn't trained any medallists either." and it makes me wonder if you've ever had the chance. I don't think this particularly effects your argument, just wondering."


Rippetoe: It is interesting that people don't seem to know that BOTH Pendlay and I coached all of the lifters that came out of the Wichita Falls Weightlifting program from 1999 to 2006. It was hosted at my facility, completely free of charge to all the lifters and Glenn for the entire duration. I was at the practices, Glenn did the programming, we discussed it and their strength preparation, and we both coached the lifters through the practices. I sponsored the team at great personal expense -- the presence of so many weightlifters cost me a lot of mainstream gym business during this period of time, but I was glad to do it because it was OUR TEAM. During that period WFW generated dozens of age-group and open National champions and international team members. WFW is the reason you know who Glenn is. Between 2004-2006 I was less involved, due to reasons I will not discuss here.

So, yes, I've trained national champions, to exactly the same extent that any athlete coached by multiple coaches can be said to be "trained" by one of these coaches, as is commonly accepted practice and which has built the coaching reputation of several of my detractors on the web. And I am therefore entitled to an opinion about these matters. It doesn't affect my argument, which stands on its own merit, but it is tempered with as much experience as that of anybody coaching right now.
5/22/13 3:53 PM
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Seemore Butts
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"But then again, read the name of Rip's book. Read it again. And again. And so on, until you realize why asking "what champs has he trained" is not a relevant question. It's almost like asking one of the country's best high school science teachers about how many Nobel Prize winners he's produced..."

It is totally relevant. I am sorry I disagree. I don't know enough about the guy, and I don't want to bash him.. But I have checked out his site. It seems it is more directed towards making money.. Nothing wrong with that, I can't fault the guy.

I get annoyed by internet coaches directing people that one method of squatting or any exercise is the only way. Maybe there is a correct anatomical way of performing the squat. Regardless of the fact, lifters have different body types, and perform differently based on physical advantages/disadvantages. I take the words of world class powerlifters like wenning, green, KK, panora, and simmons over Rippetoe.

The fact remains he hasn't had a top lifter, to my knowledge, absolutely destroying it on the platform. Like I said earlier, I saw Panora squat this weekend. Technically speaking, going off what internet coaches say, his technique was terrible, but it works for him, and his numbers speak for him. Sorry I am skeptical of "crossfit coaches". Many are not the top in their respective sports.

Again, not trying to tear the guy down. He seems like a great dude. I just think you use what works best for you. I will be in the minority in that, and my professional background does not back up my claim. But I have seen great lifters, and they do what works for them. PAVLOVS rule.
5/22/13 4:36 PM
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jeremy hamilton
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Rippetoe says that he isn't a PLing coach, so you should stop putting him in that postition. I have heard him say that personally to an elite female lifter.

He is very good at teaching begginers the mechanics of lifting.

If you were to sit down and talk with him about lifting I am sure you would agree on far more things than disagree.

5/22/13 4:50 PM
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Seemore Butts
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I would agree with you^^

I was always under the assumption he was the crossfit PL coach? Am I wrong?

I am sure he is a great guy.. I never denied that. I just don't think people should take one mans advice like it is the only way. I could be in the wrong...I am okay with that.
5/22/13 4:52 PM
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None So Blind
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No probs, dude - I think you're missing what I'm trying to convey, or else I'm not being as clear as I should be. My bad if so.

Putting it another way - how many current UFC champs have Ryron and Rener Gracie trained? Zero? Then why should you listen to anything they have to say about jiujitsu and fighting? :-) But of course, Ryron and Rener would say that the vast majority of their students (and the audience for their "Combatives" DVDs and seminars and such) are folks who are just dabblers rather than pros. The audience of BJJ hobbyists is probably 5 figures in this country, maybe 6 if you really pushed it; the audience of competitive UFC fighters is triple digits, maybe 4 if you pushed it. And obviously, UFC champion caliber guys number about 20-30 right now. Easy to see where there is more money to be made, and in fact where to get your info to as many people as possible.

Same with Rip. I'm sure he'd be happy training 1-2 world or Olympic champs, but he'd probably be much happier (and considerably better paid) if he trains several thousand couch potatoes to a 300 pound deadlift. Maybe it's just the money, or maybe he really does just find that more fulfilling, who knows. But if you read his quote above, he did in fact train many award-winning lifters with Pendlay from 1996 to 2006.

What it comes down to is that Rip focuses on taking non-lifters (esp. teenagers) and making them pretty strong, and that's it. He succeeds at that. If he wanted to train Olympic champs or whatever, well, his success at that would be debatable, and personally I'd like to see how it would shake out. But he focuses his efforts on the early stages of lifting, not the end/champ stages. As any lifter knows, beginners train VERY differently from experienced lifters.

That said, hip drive works just fine for beginners, and the argument for doing it seems reasonable - it really is just a trade-off, an oversimplification may be that a high bar squat is ~70% quads/30% posterior chain, while low bar is 60% quads/40% PC, there's nothing holy about either approach, it's just whatever you choose to focus on, and Rip chooses for beginners to have a more blended or even approach.

Jesus, you'd think I have a crush on the dude the way I defend him, LOL. But fuck it - I used his approach as an older guy myself and got *really* fucking strong, and probably could go higher if life events hadn't interfered, so I'll stick up for him in thanks.

I will be the first to admit, though, that he's very opinionated and crotchety, and has probably pissed off just about anyone he's worked with for years, and so perhaps almost by default he's out of the major-league training circles.
5/22/13 5:00 PM
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jeremy hamilton
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Seemore Butts - I would agree with you^^

I was always under the assumption he was the crossfit PL coach? Am I wrong?

I am sure he is a great guy.. I never denied that. I just don't think people should take one mans advice like it is the only way. I could be in the wrong...I am okay with that.

No problem.

I am pretty sure Louie Simmons is the Xfit guy now. Ripp hasn't been for a while.

5/22/13 5:13 PM
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Seemore Butts
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jeremy hamilton - 
Seemore Butts - I would agree with you^^

I was always under the assumption he was the crossfit PL coach? Am I wrong?

I am sure he is a great guy.. I never denied that. I just don't think people should take one mans advice like it is the only way. I could be in the wrong...I am okay with that.

No problem.

I am pretty sure Louie Simmons is the Xfit guy now. Ripp hasn't been for a while.


They have a mutli-ply guy coaching? haha that is funny.

I am competing raw in my next competition so I ditched his methods.
5/22/13 5:14 PM
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Seemore Butts
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None So Blind - No probs, dude - I think you're missing what I'm trying to convey, or else I'm not being as clear as I should be. My bad if so.

Putting it another way - how many current UFC champs have Ryron and Rener Gracie trained? Zero? Then why should you listen to anything they have to say about jiujitsu and fighting? :-) But of course, Ryron and Rener would say that the vast majority of their students (and the audience for their "Combatives" DVDs and seminars and such) are folks who are just dabblers rather than pros. The audience of BJJ hobbyists is probably 5 figures in this country, maybe 6 if you really pushed it; the audience of competitive UFC fighters is triple digits, maybe 4 if you pushed it. And obviously, UFC champion caliber guys number about 20-30 right now. Easy to see where there is more money to be made, and in fact where to get your info to as many people as possible.

Same with Rip. I'm sure he'd be happy training 1-2 world or Olympic champs, but he'd probably be much happier (and considerably better paid) if he trains several thousand couch potatoes to a 300 pound deadlift. Maybe it's just the money, or maybe he really does just find that more fulfilling, who knows. But if you read his quote above, he did in fact train many award-winning lifters with Pendlay from 1996 to 2006.

What it comes down to is that Rip focuses on taking non-lifters (esp. teenagers) and making them pretty strong, and that's it. He succeeds at that. If he wanted to train Olympic champs or whatever, well, his success at that would be debatable, and personally I'd like to see how it would shake out. But he focuses his efforts on the early stages of lifting, not the end/champ stages. As any lifter knows, beginners train VERY differently from experienced lifters.

That said, hip drive works just fine for beginners, and the argument for doing it seems reasonable - it really is just a trade-off, an oversimplification may be that a high bar squat is ~70% quads/30% posterior chain, while low bar is 60% quads/40% PC, there's nothing holy about either approach, it's just whatever you choose to focus on, and Rip chooses for beginners to have a more blended or even approach.

Jesus, you'd think I have a crush on the dude the way I defend him, LOL. But fuck it - I used his approach as an older guy myself and got *really* fucking strong, and probably could go higher if life events hadn't interfered, so I'll stick up for him in thanks.

I will be the first to admit, though, that he's very opinionated and crotchety, and has probably pissed off just about anyone he's worked with for years, and so perhaps almost by default he's out of the major-league training circles.

I get what you're saying.

Regardless of what my opinion is, he seems like a great dude. I always respect any one who gives free advice, or helps lifters out. I don't use his methods, but I am sure many people have, and it is great.

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