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UnderGround Forums >> Gonzaga camp to protest Browne loss


4/15/13 12:01 AM
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Underground Blog
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At the TUF 17 Finale, Travis Browne was awarded a win and the Knockout of the Night over Gabriel Gonzaga, via elbows to the head, at 1:11 of Round 1.

At least some of the blows appear to egregiously violate both the no striking to the back of the head rule, and the 12-6 elbow rule.

The referee may have ended the fight when the initial, legal elbows landed, and thus the later ones would not count towards a disqualification.

This is the position held by UFC president Dana White who addressed the matter during the TUF 17 post-fight media scrum.

"Me and Joe Silva looked at a replay of it on the Internet," said White. "he was out with the ones to the side (of the head), and then he hit him with a couple more to the back of the head after he was already out. That's the way that I saw it."

"You know me, if I didn't think the referees did a good job I would tell you. They did a good job tonight, considering the bad situations tonight when people were in bad situations, they did a good job tonight of stopping the fights."

For his part, Browne says there was no ill intent.

"I remember hitting him with one, and the referee was right there," said Browne. "I could kind of see him standing off to the side, and he didn't say anything. I hit him with two more, and by that time he was done.

"I just kind of stopped. I didn't feel him fighting anymore. I try to be respectful in the cage, and if I know somebody can't defend themselves, I'm not going to take advantage of that."

However, Gonzaga's manager Marco Alvan says the decision will be appealed to the governing regulatory body, the Nevada Athletic Commission. Via Facebook.

"Guys Gabriel Gonzaga is ok, thanks for the messages," wrote Alvan.

"I need to review it to count how many illegal elbows but Its a fact that it was illegal. I contacted Keith Kizer head of Nevada Athletic Comission and he told me to file a complaint and he would review it.
I true believe it was illegal. I never complaint about a losses who knows me know that I handle it good but illegal we can not accept."

"We appeal to the Nevada State Athletic Commission because we think were the illegal elbows neck. Whenever we had accepted any defeat, but this was illegal."

"This video is clear about the elbow.

"I very hope the commission look it carefully and make a correct decision about it. We respect Travis and his camp but it was a sad night. We hope this result can be fixed and get a new fight between them."

What do you think UG? Were the blows legal or illegal? 


4/15/13 12:04 AM
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Condit's Face Broke My Hand
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Only one hit him in the back of the head imo. The rest were the side Phone Post
4/15/13 12:05 AM
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JunkieDog
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Yeah, but that's Mo. He deserved it.
4/15/13 12:06 AM
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Wes_Mantooth
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He lost, accept it. Phone Post
4/15/13 12:06 AM
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thebigsexybeast
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I agree theres atleast one Illegal elbow but not intentional Phone Post
4/15/13 12:07 AM
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Refuse to Lose
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It's definitely questionable and worth getting reviewed.Elbows from that position can be dangerous especially from a HW. Phone Post
4/15/13 12:18 AM
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Condit's Face Broke My Hand
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BadMon - 
Condit's Face Broke My Hand -  Only one hit him in the back of the head imo. The rest were the side Phone Post

Even that 1 is iffy, Gonzaga fell over unconscious as it connected.  wasn't intentional.


Well it doesn't matter if it was intentional or not, but I agree it happened as Gonzaga fell over. I know fans hate Browne and will look to pick this apart, but I have a hard time seeing the NSAC overturning this.

4/15/13 12:43 AM
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WestCoastKid
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All the butt hurt armchair refs on the UG are just wasting their time dissecting the stoppage. Unless you are the referee in the cage, your opinions are meaningless. Petitions and crusades led by the UG in other threads are laughable. Gonzaga lost. Get over it. The win for Browne won't be overturned. Kizer is laughing at all of you right now thinking the win for Browne is going to be overturned. And no other referee is ever going to point a finger at another referee, especially one in Nevada. LOL
4/15/13 12:55 AM
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Proteus The Invincible
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There doesn't seem to be a general agreement upon what can be labelled a back-of-the-head strike, despite how straightforward the criteria appears to be. From my perspective, the last four of the six elbows landed by Browne were clearly to the back of the head (including the one that connected just after the referee stepped in), and even the first two looked questionable, although not questionable enough to get very upset over.

With that in mind, I don't think Browne's win was at all clean, much like his loss to Bigfoot wasn't.
4/15/13 1:00 AM
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Rigamaroles
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I thought they were very illegal Phone Post 3.0
4/15/13 1:00 AM
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40oztofreedom
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Proteus The Invincible - There doesn't seem to be a general agreement upon what can be labelled a back-of-the-head strike, despite how straightforward the criteria appears to be. From my perspective, the last four of the six elbows landed by Browne were clearly to the back of the head (including the one that connected just after the referee stepped in), and even the first two looked questionable, although not questionable enough to get very upset over.

With that in mind, I don't think Browne's win was at all clean, much like his loss to Bigfoot wasn't.
Agreed. If I were Keith Kizer, I'd overturn it to NC. A fighter shouldn't be allowed to elbowfuck another fighter behind the ear like that. It's dirty. Behind the ear is the back of the head. Phone Post 3.0
4/15/13 1:05 AM
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AbbottMary
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Edited: 04/15/13 1:05 AM
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I don't blame him. Haha its funny how on fight night i was getting voted down within seconds of saying "looked illegal, but nice ko," because they were so upset with the illegal bows, and now people are shitting on gabes camp for trying to contest it. I think that this is a super close call either way, but travis browne deserves the win IMO. He knocked gonzaga out cold with some nasty elbows, imo that means you win the fight. Like i said though if i was in gonzagas camp i'd probably try to contest it too.
4/15/13 1:14 AM
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Ingrained Media
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Edited: 04/15/13 1:15 AM
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Ingrained Media, President
The commission rules do not allow the overturning of an official decision. There has to be collusion to cheat or a mistake on the scorecards that can be proven (see Camozzi vs Villasenor) or drugs. Since this happened while the fight was in motion the commission will support the decision made by the referee. Gonzaga's people need to petition Zuffa for a rematch not the NSAC to overturn.

NAC 467.770 Change of decision after contest or exhibition: Factors considered by Commission. (NRS 467.030) Except as otherwise provided in subsection 6 of NAC 467.850, the Commission will not change a decision rendered at the end of any contest or exhibition unless:
1. The Commission determines that there was collusion affecting the result of the contest or exhibition;
2. The compilation of the scorecards of the judges discloses an error which shows that the decision was given to the wrong unarmed combatant; or
3. As the result of an error in interpreting a provision of this chapter, the referee has rendered an incorrect decision.
[Athletic Comm'n, § 40, eff. 4-25-78]--(NAC A 12-13-82; 12-2-97; R090-07, 12-4-2007)
4/15/13 1:16 AM
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stonepony
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Condit's Face Broke My Hand - 
BadMon - 
Condit's Face Broke My Hand -  Only one hit him in the back of the head imo. The rest were the side Phone Post

Even that 1 is iffy, Gonzaga fell over unconscious as it connected.  wasn't intentional.


Well it doesn't matter if it was intentional or not, but I agree it happened as Gonzaga fell over. I know fans hate Browne and will look to pick this apart, but I have a hard time seeing the NSAC overturning this.


I believe the referees do distinguish between targeted blows, versus inadvertent blows. If the illegal blow was in motion and targeted toward a legal area, and the fighter moves his head causing it to land illegally, the referees do consider that. In boxing too, they factor in the "intent" of the strike.

It's why the Lesnar Mir stoppage was so egregious.
4/15/13 1:17 AM
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Dmoney35
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honestly I really like both guys but every single elbow was more back than side and it was pretty clear.

lets say the first one rocked him right? then back of the head blows finished him off no question.

no contest, check ball run it back. Phone Post 3.0
4/15/13 1:19 AM
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shootfightermike
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ttt

4/15/13 1:24 AM
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UGCTT_ScarecrowRio
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stonepony - 
Condit's Face Broke My Hand - 
BadMon - 
Condit's Face Broke My Hand -  Only one hit him in the back of the head imo. The rest were the side Phone Post

Even that 1 is iffy, Gonzaga fell over unconscious as it connected.  wasn't intentional.


Well it doesn't matter if it was intentional or not, but I agree it happened as Gonzaga fell over. I know fans hate Browne and will look to pick this apart, but I have a hard time seeing the NSAC overturning this.


I believe the referees do distinguish between targeted blows, versus inadvertent blows. If the illegal blow was in motion and targeted toward a legal area, and the fighter moves his head causing it to land illegally, the referees do consider that. In boxing too, they factor in the "intent" of the strike.

It's why the Lesnar Mir stoppage was so egregious.

I view it this way aswell. Thats why GSP vs Penn 2 didnt have points taken away, because Penn moved his head, which caused him to get hit in the back of the head. Gabriel fell over, which is when the elbows hit the back of the head. I do believe the last one also hit his head, but it was the blows to the side of the head that ended the bout.

4/15/13 1:31 AM
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WestCoastKid
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Fans shouldn't be referees. They have a fan's perspective and really don't know what a referee is looking at and do not have the proper training or ring/cage experience. Just because you watch the UFC from a couch doesn't make you a UFC referee. A referee is looking for malicious or unsportsmanlike intent and targeted shots. Browne was just trying to finish the fight, not be unsportsmanlike or malicious in anyway. The elbows were not 12 to 6. They were more 11 to 5 or 10 to 4 which are legal elbow strikes. He was bringing his elbow back and into not straight down and into.


Remco vs. Orlando Weit are 12-6 elbows and one of the reasons that this rule was made up

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82187110/

http://www.mmaweekly.com/the-12-to-6-illegal-elbow-explained-2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-vgDogzTrY
4/15/13 1:38 AM
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shaqitup
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Does it even matter which shot made him go out?

Correct me if i'm wrong here, but the fight isn't over until the referee jumps in, and he hit him in the back of the head  before the reff hopped in.

4/15/13 1:38 AM
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stonepony
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UGCTT_ScarecrowRio - 
stonepony - 
Condit's Face Broke My Hand - 
BadMon - 
Condit's Face Broke My Hand -  Only one hit him in the back of the head imo. The rest were the side Phone Post

Even that 1 is iffy, Gonzaga fell over unconscious as it connected.  wasn't intentional.


Well it doesn't matter if it was intentional or not, but I agree it happened as Gonzaga fell over. I know fans hate Browne and will look to pick this apart, but I have a hard time seeing the NSAC overturning this.


I believe the referees do distinguish between targeted blows, versus inadvertent blows. If the illegal blow was in motion and targeted toward a legal area, and the fighter moves his head causing it to land illegally, the referees do consider that. In boxing too, they factor in the "intent" of the strike.

It's why the Lesnar Mir stoppage was so egregious.

I view it this way aswell. Thats why GSP vs Penn 2 didnt have points taken away, because Penn moved his head, which caused him to get hit in the back of the head. Gabriel fell over, which is when the elbows hit the back of the head. I do believe the last one also hit his head, but it was the blows to the side of the head that ended the bout.


Perhaps the UFC can find a way to make ref helmet cams work. The button cam was a dud obviously.

Ref cams, and an instant replay system, and these problems will be reduced a lot. As of now, the downward angle on our view of those elbows is terrible, and the referee's perspective was perfect. He had his face in there with his eyes on Gonzaga.

I think only one of those elbows actually glanced the back of the head. I'd be interested to hear what the Ref has to say about it.

Either way... Gabriel was out, and TB wasn't targeting the back of his head. The person with the best view of what happened, was the Ref. The appeal isn't going to go anywhere.
4/15/13 1:40 AM
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CHILLITACO
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12-6
And definitely some illegal ones to boot!


Should be a nc I don't think brown meant any of it. Phone Post
4/15/13 1:43 AM
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stonepony
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And you're right about GSP vs Penn. Another good example is when Gonzaga exploded one of Tuchscherer's testicles. A fighter can land 3 low blows without having a point taken. If they're stray knees or leg kicks. But, kick somebody square in the balls by surprise during the tap, and the fight will probably be stopped. DQ.
4/15/13 1:44 AM
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NiteProwleR
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I saw them all hit the ear/chin spot on, but if anything the 2nd to the last one was 12-6.
4/15/13 1:48 AM
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DoomFarmer
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If Sakara lost to Cote, Browne just lost that fight.

Consistency needs to be maintained. Phone Post 3.0
4/15/13 1:52 AM
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da Vinci 81
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The last couple and the one that made him go limp looked blatantly illegal to me. They looked like both a 12-6 motion and to the back of the head. I hope the decision does get overturned because the ref dropped the ball completely, imo. Phone Post 3.0

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