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UnderGround Forums >> Alan Belcher IMMUNE To Submissions?


4/26/13 10:53 AM
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2JupitersTooMany
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Does it ever occur to these guys that typing in the trademark style of Lloyd Irvin will create an association between the two in the minds of potential buyers? Do you think the MMA/grappling community isn't thoroughly aware of the controversy? Why would you encourage that association? I personally wouldn't touch a product with a loose connection to that filthy community. For all the supposedly brilliant marketing insights of the Master, it's ironic that they engage in reputation suicide that could easily be avoided. Phone Post 3.0
4/26/13 12:27 PM
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Zapruder
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David Bollea - 
vegard - these testimonials for lloyd like crap are all the same.

who me? not me?

I'm just a regular dude talking about something I really like.

I don't have any connection.

Just think it's a great product.

(Insert name) is a great guy. (insert name) was really struggling trying to run a gym (fight) and do what he loves.

Now he can.

I DO really like it..

And I DO have a connection

They're not mutually exclusive of each other

Again that's what the FREE videos are for

So you can see if YOU really like it...

Is the video on the web for all to see? Or must you give something to see the video?

So, once again, FUCK YOU MORAN!
4/26/13 2:13 PM
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Alumynabjj
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2JupitersTooMany - Does it ever occur to these guys that typing in the trademark style of Lloyd Irvin will create an association between the two in the minds of potential buyers? Do you think the MMA/grappling community isn't thoroughly aware of the controversy? Why would you encourage that association? I personally wouldn't touch a product with a loose connection to that filthy community. For all the supposedly brilliant marketing insights of the Master, it's ironic that they engage in reputation suicide that could easily be avoided. Phone Post 3.0

These David Bollea cat is doing more than just continuing this marketing style, he is still actively supporting Lloyd and calling people like us, who do not think Lloyd is awesome, as a bunch of haters.

This David dude is a fucking tool and this is not fighter bashing as this is not based on him as a fighter yet as a small business owner who has chosen to associate himself with raping scumbag.
4/26/13 3:53 PM
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David Bollea
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Zapruder - 
David Bollea - 
vegard - these testimonials for lloyd like crap are all the same.

who me? not me?

I'm just a regular dude talking about something I really like.

I don't have any connection.

Just think it's a great product.

(Insert name) is a great guy. (insert name) was really struggling trying to run a gym (fight) and do what he loves.

Now he can.

I DO really like it..

And I DO have a connection

They're not mutually exclusive of each other

Again that's what the FREE videos are for

So you can see if YOU really like it...

Is the video on the web for all to see? Or must you give something to see the video?

So, once again, FUCK YOU MORAN!

You don't have to do anything..

Nobodys making you

If you choose that you want to see the free videos Alan will email you the free videos

And in exchange for creating free videos and sending them to you hes going to tell you about his dvds

If at any point you want to get the free videos and not hear about the dvds you just click the unsubscribe button at the bottom of the email

Then you got your free videos and didnt have to pay anything or even hear about buying dvds from a guy who made them to sell and is trying to show potential buyers free samples...

You can literally get the free videos and unsubscribe and come on here and call me bad names and live a life of no repercussions

There's nothing to be mad about .. no one making you subscribe.. and no ones being mean to you for being very aggressive online

I'm trying to and I hope I'm doing a good job addressing your concerns despite the way you're coming at me because I'm trying to see things your way and I'm sure you feel what you're doing is valid
4/26/13 4:33 PM
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David Bollea
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Alumynabjj - 
2JupitersTooMany - Does it ever occur to these guys that typing in the trademark style of Lloyd Irvin will create an association between the two in the minds of potential buyers? Do you think the MMA/grappling community isn't thoroughly aware of the controversy? Why would you encourage that association? I personally wouldn't touch a product with a loose connection to that filthy community. For all the supposedly brilliant marketing insights of the Master, it's ironic that they engage in reputation suicide that could easily be avoided. Phone Post 3.0

These David Bollea cat is doing more than just continuing this marketing style, he is still actively supporting Lloyd and calling people like us, who do not think Lloyd is awesome, as a bunch of haters.

This David dude is a fucking tool and this is not fighter bashing as this is not based on him as a fighter yet as a small business owner who has chosen to associate himself with raping scumbag.

You can fighter bash me dude. Im not sensitive. That's part of the responsibility I had to deal with for putting myself out there. I get that and I don't have any hard feelings towards you.

In fact I kind of admire your because I believe you're doing what you feel is right. And that's always admirable

Just because you and I don't see eye to eye on marketing etc doesn't mean that I don't think your intentions are good.. which I believe they are.

As far as me thinking people are haters that's not accurate..

Have I been a big supporter of Lloyd in the past before all these allegations came out.. YES.

Has the fact that Master Lloyd introduced me to direct response marketing changed my life. YES.

Do I think "you guys" are witch hunting haters? No. That would be a blanket statement. I believe a lot of people have good intentions.

Any "hatery" would be an individual basis.

For example there's a guy who locked ML out of his own Internet Marketing group on Facebook ..

Which he probably felt he was doing the right thing.

No judgement.

But he then went on to talk about Lloyd not being a good marketer.

In the group. The group Lloyd created. The group Lloyd had 2000 people in.

Well if Lloyd isn't a good marketer then this guy wouldn't have a platform on which to speak.

So the fact that he was using Lloyds marketing efforts instead of his own and then in the same breath saying Lloyd isnt a good marketer seems hypocritical to me

If hes such a better marketer why doesn't he start a Lloyd is a scumbag group and get 2,000 people in it?

He can't.. he doesn't know how.. and even if he did.. people would be there because they're anti Lloyd not because pro him.

You see what Im saying?

I think protecting the community from what people see as a potential threat is admirable..

And I think rape prevention and advocacy is admirable ...

But there's also the harsh reality that while a lot of people's intentions are good a lot aren't..

I posted two threads on helping rape victims.. how to donate etc..

Not many replies.. You'd imagine that with the 1,000s of views and responses to anything that even may be remotely tied to the similar marketing that LI uses that there would be much more support of threads about helping rape victims etc..since there's such an outcry for victims

The fact that not many people supported those threads saddened me .. but there were also several good people who stepped up and donated which is awesome

So some people really care about the victims and helping people

Some people dont

And some people care but feel they cant donate or help

So then again it's a case by case basis.. like the dude who is bashing lloyd for being a terrible marketer in lloyds marketing group.. he might be a hater lol

(even tho ive been trying to eliminate the word hater from my vocabulary because I think it attracts negative attentions and prejudged people who may just not understand you.. that's a whole other topic on the law of attraction being tolerant and understanding others etc)

But so yeah honesty is my biggest thing so anybody who asks me if lloyd has helped me.. the answer is yes.

Is direct response marketing better for small businesses than what most businesses do? I believe so yes.

Am I supposed lie and say lloyd didnt put me on to direct response marketing etc?

I guess the fact that this scandal has come out about a guy that happened to have helped me makes me and every body else who its helped look bad

And I get that

But if Im not going to lie and say lloyd didnt put me onto direct response.. and im not going to lie and say direct response didnt change my life

It did and I guess the fact that the guy who happened to put me on to it is involved in in a terrible scandal makes anything I do or say automatically bad in some of your eyes..

Which is fine.. time and actions will show whos who..

Are there good marketers and bad ones yes

Are there good out criers and bad ones yes

The same way its wrong to lump concerned members of the community into a group of haters is the same way it may be wrong to lump anybody selling DVDs via email and websites with red tahoma font headlines into a group of bad people

I believe a lot of you guys have good intentions and again I admire that.

Oh and if at anytime I say.. have said or will say anything directed at anyone don't read too much into it.. im a fuckin moran. Just ask the guy above :)
4/26/13 5:04 PM
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David Bollea
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2JupitersTooMany - Does it ever occur to these guys that typing in the trademark style of Lloyd Irvin will create an association between the two in the minds of potential buyers? Do you think the MMA/grappling community isn't thoroughly aware of the controversy? Why would you encourage that association? I personally wouldn't touch a product with a loose connection to that filthy community. For all the supposedly brilliant marketing insights of the Master, it's ironic that they engage in reputation suicide that could easily be avoided. Phone Post 3.0

I've thought about that a lot actually

There's pluses and minuses to everything

Here's where Im at with it

The marketing helps a lot of people make more sales and helps a lot of customers get access to info they wouldn't have had other wise. So if a DVD I promote helps one person.. and helps a fellow martial artist make a sale to me thats a win/win

BUT there's also the counter point which is .. does this marketing turn off people who these products could potentially help?

The issue isn't if its a good product or not.. we can all see it clearly is..

The issue is with the marketing and or who introduced us to this marketing

So if 1000 people who wouldn't have heard about it do hear about it .. and 10 of them buy.. then we got a good product in the hands of 10 people who wouldn't have heard about it other wise

But lets say 3 people of that 1000 would buy the product but refuse to because of the way it was marketed or who introed us to this of marketing.. but those people would have never heard about it anyway..

So at the same time you want to tell the 10 people who want to hear about it.. you have to deal with the 3 that dont

The thing is the 3 that dont are usually the vocal minority

And while there are a few negative responses to the email frequency there's also hundreds of people who have bought already and the 1000 copies will sell out.. not to mention the tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who are enjoying the free videos and either enjoy the emails or kind of think the emails are a bit silly but over look that cuz the content is good

What it really comes down to is if you learned BJJ from a guy who was involved in a murder trial.. does that make BJJ bad?

BJJ works. It helps people. So does direct response marketing.

I'd be open to learning from anyone who has a way of getting good products in the hands of people who want them and the products will help

I've even thought about reaching out to Tom Callos since lots of people speak highly of him but honestly I don't know him like that and from what I've seen he's not selling 500 dvds in a day.. which is fine it's not for everybody..

There's two ends of the spectrum to look at it to... "OMG you guys sold 500 dvd courses in a day you guys are evil marketers ewww"

Or "Wow that's impressive Id like to learn how to share what I've learned with 500 people across the world and help spread the artform I love and make a profit while helping people avoid the mistakes Ive made"

Both are fine.. theyre just opinions.. and theres all sorts of variations in between

I guess the marketing thing is kind of like fighting.. when I decided to fight I knew that a lot of people would like me and a lot wouldn't..

As far as who introed me into all of it.. should I lie?

No. Master Lloyd introduced me to something that changed my life.

That's the truth and I figure you can't go wrong with the truth..

What else are you going to do besides be yourself be cool to people ya know?
4/26/13 5:20 PM
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David Bollea
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krept - David,

I completely agree that fighting is a tough way to earn a living. Further, I do not have a problem with network marketing when it is done right, so to speak.

I can't afford a lot on training beyond the monthly bjj dues for my son and I, but I can help spread the word of those who I think deserve it. For example, I cannot say enough good things about the free content that Stephan Kesting and the Gracie Academy provide and I have no connection to them. Thus, while I have spent less than $100 with both combined, I try to help by recommending their products when questions come up.

On the flip side, if there is a potential that someone is affiliated with very bad network marketing, I will be more vocal about it.

I don't know if you are Alan continue to be part of Lloyd Irvin's system, affiliation, program (whatever) but I sure hope not... not for me, but for you guys. Even if you are part of it, I appreciate you responding because it's a much better, respectful approach than saying nothing and hoping it will go away.

I appreciate you being level headed and open to assuming the best instead of the worst

The whole network marketing thing is a bit misunderstood..

The Belcher Immunity launch is more referral marketing which means if you're going to talk about Stephen Kesting and the Gracies anyway and recommend them

What if they sent you a link that said you get 25% or 50% or whatever on anyone you refer...

You already believe they have awesome products and their products have helped you and your son.. so you tell people about good stuff that has helped you and you make a referral

That's really all it is..

I can't speak for Alan but as far as my association with Lloyd goes he's taught me a lot .. he's put me on to information that changed my life.. and I hope the allegations about him are untrue.

I always choose assume the best about people because that's what I would like to do for me.

Even in this thread I always try and assume the best that even when people are calling me bad names etc meaning I try and believe that they have GOOD intentions..

I try not to judge and I try to be cool.. Do I make mistakes yeah.. in fact I even TRY and make mistakes because that's how we learn.. and I want to learn faster

Maybe posting on forums about products is a good idea.. maybe its a bad idea.. but you never know until you try..

Part of me thinks it was a mistake because it has upset some people.. but part of me thinks it was good because there are positive responses too ..

And even in the negative responses it's creating a dialogue which allows people to understand each other better and to me thats a good thing
4/26/13 5:37 PM
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UGCTT croy_00
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UFC 69
Opponent: Kendall Grove
Outcome: Loss
Reason: Belcher was submitted in round 2 via D'arce choke

Just sayin'...oh and kick his ass Alan.
4/26/13 5:38 PM
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David Bollea
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Edited: 04/26/13 5:44 PM
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Huey Freeman - Disgusting that belcher still associates with this disgusting set of people and this is the main reason I hope he loses tommorrow.

If you are associated with filthy rapists then you don't deserve any respect at all.

It's fucking tragic filth like Irvin is so successful, and people who associate with him are enablers and just as bad, maybe donate some money to victims of rape. Phone Post 3.0



Donating is important to help victims and increase prevention

So much so that at the heat of the controversy I posted two threads about it



You can go to either of those threads they promote the same charity

Or if you want you can donate directly at the site below

http://www.rainn.org/donate/ways-to-give

Also for those of you interested in an interesting marketing "case study" the controversial headline and "marketing copy" got a 20x respose...and therefor helped 20x more people who needed it.

As with anything powerful you can use direct response marketing to do a lot of good.

4/26/13 5:45 PM
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David Bollea
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Paul_Blanka_Harris - 

the guy when toeto toe with paulharris  and won !!


TOE to TOE !! lol
4/26/13 5:54 PM
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Morgz
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Marketing ploy would be much more effective if Belcher was about to fight someone capable of submitting anyone in the UFC MW division Phone Post 3.0
4/26/13 5:56 PM
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dhughes
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Edited: 04/26/13 5:57 PM
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People might feel a little weird about donating through a post generated by an associate of LI using techniques learned from LI for rape prevention. Know what I'm saying?

I wouldn't measure desire to help based on response or lack of response on those threads. Besides which, it's just a matter of fact that people get much more emotionally invested in attacking the perpetrators of crimes than helping the victims of them when they are not directly involved. Take Boston for example. There were and are far, far more news stories about the brothers than there were about the victims.

Anyway Lloyd is a scumbag. I appreciate your willingness to engage in a dialogue and your candidness. But do know that you will be hard pressed to find any one here that will be moved by the fact that LI changed your life. Bad people are capable of doing good things.
4/26/13 6:00 PM
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krept
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Edited: 04/26/13 6:05 PM
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If at any point you want to get the free videos and not hear about the dvds you just click the unsubscribe button at the bottom of the email


As mentioned on page 1, therubberbandit was on Avellan's list and tried to unsubscribe 10 times and could not. Since at least one of the e-mails was touting Belcher's vids, the concern about being unable to unsubscribe is salient.

Have I been a big supporter of Lloyd in the past before all these allegations came out.. YES.


The phrasing here clearly makes certain implications; do you still support Lloyd? I mean "support" in a very broad sense, not some nuanced interpretation like "physically provide structural reinforcement" like a crutch for someone with a limp.

If you think answering leads to an endless series of questions, why did people stop asking questions of Ryan Hall, of Nak, of Fuzzy (Brandon), or others who seemed to be more associated with Lloyd than you? It's because of the actions they took alleviated doubt.

I guess the fact that this scandal has come out about a guy that happened to have helped me makes me and every body else who its helped look bad

And I get that


Thats the thing, man... I am not going to bite too much at the straw man but as I mentioned, people who directly shilled for Lloyd have spoken up and don't look bad (despite Lloyd's attempts to frame the dialogue), much less people who his network marketing helped. This is directly because they have spoken out and helped to raise awareness of what is going on, which is far, far more than just "aggressive marketing" or some such... Current and prospective world champions at BJJ, the Medal Chasers, do not simply up and leave in the middle of the night because they decided to hate on affiliate marketing.

It IS bad when people give off the impression that they are no longer affiliated when it turns out they are.
4/26/13 6:02 PM
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krept
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Edited: 04/26/13 6:02 PM
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dbl
4/26/13 6:09 PM
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2JupitersTooMany
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superCalo -  Rape prevention courses are a GREAT idea, balling my man! Phone Post

lol

4/26/13 6:24 PM
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2JupitersTooMany
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The part about reclaiming the moral high ground by posting links to rape charities is gold. I genuinely mean no ill will but that is rich. Phone Post 3.0
4/26/13 6:25 PM
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Dominated
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For later. Phone Post
4/26/13 6:41 PM
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2JupitersTooMany
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The risk-reward calculations you are doing can make financial sense if they measure all the relevant data but it is not believable not truly driven by gifting the works with a beautiful that the marketing process is driven by a desire to gift the world with a beautiful product. Anyone with half a brain knows that the methods are primarily, maybe even exclusively, driven by a desire to maximize net income.

But even if we remove moral considerations and talk exclusively about money, I think your allegiances may be blinding you to significant parts of the equation. If a young entrepreneur is associated with a budding rape/ sex cult controversy, it may have more of a negative impact than you're plugging into the algorithm. You are being very respectful in this thread, but seriously, nobody familiar with the TLI disaster is going to unconsciously separate anyone with a lingering TLI connection from the controversy and that is a risk prospect for a new business venture. Phone Post 3.0
4/26/13 6:44 PM
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2JupitersTooMany
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Yikes, I wrote a nonsensical sentence. *it's not believable that the marketing strategy is motivated by gifting the world with something beautiful etc Phone Post 3.0
4/26/13 6:54 PM
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2JupitersTooMany
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Looks at the reception his marketing is getting on the best MMA message board on the planet. Is this the garbage a nice guy marketing a product on what should be his stomping grounds should worry about deflecting? Cut the cord bro. Phone Post 3.0
4/26/13 7:21 PM
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David Bollea
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krept - 

If at any point you want to get the free videos and not hear about the dvds you just click the unsubscribe button at the bottom of the email


As mentioned on page 1, therubberbandit was on Avellan's list and tried to unsubscribe 10 times and could not. Since at least one of the e-mails was touting Belcher's vids, the concern about being unable to unsubscribe is salient.

Have I been a big supporter of Lloyd in the past before all these allegations came out.. YES.


The phrasing here clearly makes certain implications; do you still support Lloyd? I mean "support" in a very broad sense, not some nuanced interpretation like "physically provide structural reinforcement" like a crutch for someone with a limp.

If you think answering leads to an endless series of questions, why did people stop asking questions of Ryan Hall, of Nak, of Fuzzy (Brandon), or others who seemed to be more associated with Lloyd than you? It's because of the actions they took alleviated doubt.

I guess the fact that this scandal has come out about a guy that happened to have helped me makes me and every body else who its helped look bad

And I get that


Thats the thing, man... I am not going to bite too much at the straw man but as I mentioned, people who directly shilled for Lloyd have spoken up and don't look bad (despite Lloyd's attempts to frame the dialogue), much less people who his network marketing helped. This is directly because they have spoken out and helped to raise awareness of what is going on, which is far, far more than just "aggressive marketing" or some such... Current and prospective world champions at BJJ, the Medal Chasers, do not simply up and leave in the middle of the night because they decided to hate on affiliate marketing.

It IS bad when people give off the impression that they are no longer affiliated when it turns out they are.

1. If people can't unsubscribe from a list its bad. I dunno what's up with that.

2. Like you said I'm not very associated with them in the 1st place. So I have nothing to speak out about as all my personal experiences have been good. Anything else would be speculation. I live in Vegas. I do my own thing.

3. Yeah I was surprised to see a lot of the Medal Chasers left.
4/26/13 7:27 PM
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David Bollea
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dhughes - People might feel a little weird about donating through a post generated by an associate of LI using techniques learned from LI for rape prevention. Know what I'm saying?

I wouldn't measure desire to help based on response or lack of response on those threads. Besides which, it's just a matter of fact that people get much more emotionally invested in attacking the perpetrators of crimes than helping the victims of them when they are not directly involved. Take Boston for example. There were and are far, far more news stories about the brothers than there were about the victims.

Anyway Lloyd is a scumbag. I appreciate your willingness to engage in a dialogue and your candidness. But do know that you will be hard pressed to find any one here that will be moved by the fact that LI changed your life. Bad people are capable of doing good things.

1. I agree with what you're saying thats why I found it fascinating that the "Lloyd Irvin" marketing donation thread out pulled the plaing Donate Here thread by 20-1

2. Yeah that was my goal in posting about the charities.. To help people who were concerned about helping victims have an outlet to do so that they may have not previously known about

3. Yeah I appreciate you too.. I'm not trying to move anyone to change their mind on anything. It's more people ask me about TLI and I tell them the week I trained there as a visitor was great and LI's marketing helped me. More just answering peoples questions when they ask than trying to move anybody to do anything.
4/26/13 8:09 PM
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David Bollea
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Edited: 04/26/13 8:20 PM
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2JupitersTooMany - The risk-reward calculations you are doing can make financial sense if they measure all the relevant data but it is not believable not truly driven by gifting the works with a beautiful that the marketing process is driven by a desire to gift the world with a beautiful product. Anyone with half a brain knows that the methods are primarily, maybe even exclusively, driven by a desire to maximize net income.

But even if we remove moral considerations and talk exclusively about money, I think your allegiances may be blinding you to significant parts of the equation. If a young entrepreneur is associated with a budding rape/ sex cult controversy, it may have more of a negative impact than you're plugging into the algorithm. You are being very respectful in this thread, but seriously, nobody familiar with the TLI disaster is going to unconsciously separate anyone with a lingering TLI connection from the controversy and that is a risk prospect for a new business venture. Phone Post 3.0

I see your point and I've thought about that exact same thing

But what if its not necessarily allegiances blinding me but more so the truth?

Could I make more money publicly calling LI a "limp dick who scammed me"? Yes. but I don't feel that's the case

You know what I mean?

Like I get that everybody's supposed to come out and tell their horror story.. but I don't have one.

Am I a member of or associated with TLI? No. I live in Vegas. I do my own thing.
4/26/13 9:02 PM
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krept
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David, thanks for continuing the dialogue. I did not see the earlier post for some reason or I would have responded.

I understand the concept of affiliate marketing and I can't say it wouldn't be nice to share a cut in the sales as you mention in the earlier reply. To further the analogy, if one of the people whose videos I advocte did something bad (oversimplification for sake of brevity) then as uncomfortable as it would seem I would try to make things right and correct the wrong.

I feel that is what we have seen from those previously in Lloyds association in recent months, a couple at least. That is why I and others feel the important first step towards making amends is making a clean break. Short term, this will appear to have mostly a downside, while remaining associated or neutral may seem to be the best course $ wise but we will see how it plays out in the end. I think general rules of thumb do not apply to this due to the breadth and depth of the accusations. Phone Post
4/26/13 9:43 PM
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David Bollea
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krept -  David, thanks for continuing the dialogue. I did not see the earlier post for some reason or I would have responded.

I understand the concept of affiliate marketing and I can't say it wouldn't be nice to share a cut in the sales as you mention in the earlier reply. To further the analogy, if one of the people whose videos I advocte did something bad (oversimplification for sake of brevity) then as uncomfortable as it would seem I would try to make things right and correct the wrong.

I feel that is what we have seen from those previously in Lloyds association in recent months, a couple at least. That is why I and others feel the important first step towards making amends is making a clean break. Short term, this will appear to have mostly a downside, while remaining associated or neutral may seem to be the best course $ wise but we will see how it plays out in the end. I think general rules of thumb do not apply to this due to the breadth and depth of the accusations. Phone Post

I see what you're saying and I agree that if there we're ties to sever then that's the right route for anyone who wants to polarize themselves from that ..even if they are (and not all of them are) doing it for selfish reasons.. thats the right move to sway public perception of themselves

The thing is is that I'm not a member of TLI or MMA Millionaires at all.. so there's no ties to sever

Im not in any of the Masterminds.. Nothing.

For some reason ML just like really helped me out A LOT for no reason

I've only paid to attend one of his events (Its was $197 I believe) and I own the triangle course and grappling game plan from back in like 07ish?

Besides that I've never paid him for anything.. He just helped me out.

Like he literally just helped me for no reason.

And some people will be like he was just buttering you up to get that $197 down the road.. which would have been fine by me because the stuff he taught me/introduced me to made me $10,000's of dollars easily

As far as rape culture I tend to stay away from discussing stuff I dont know anything about .. and when I was in MD I didnt see any of that.

The only stuff Ive seen is the threads on here.. and theres a lot of people staying with TLI and a lot of people leaving..

So like I said earlier Im not the guy to ask about that.. someone from those two groups would know more than me

I only speak about the effectiveness of the marketing and the experiences Ive personally had because that's all i know about

Anything else would be pure speculation on subjects Im not qualified to talk about

It's hard for me to say bad stuff when aside from stuff I've read on line from people with weird screennames the only experiences Ive had with anyone on past or present TLI have been positive ones..

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