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UnderGround Forums >> Ken Shamrock: "UFC is taking advantage of fighters


4/24/13 8:36 PM
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RyannVonDoom
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tommypatron - 
Othello - So a persistent undercard fighter in the UFC has 10 fights and he can retire for life? Seriously Shamrock?? I wonder how many NFL players making the league minimum can play a couple seasons then retire for life? Or MLB,NHL..... any professional sport for that matter.

IDK why people insist on making blanket statements when it comes to UFC pay and the people it effects.
Isn't the league minimum still like six figures? Phone Post 3.0

500k a year min for NFL. 

4/24/13 9:05 PM
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JerodR
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RyannVonDoom - 
tommypatron - 
Othello - So a persistent undercard fighter in the UFC has 10 fights and he can retire for life? Seriously Shamrock?? I wonder how many NFL players making the league minimum can play a couple seasons then retire for life? Or MLB,NHL..... any professional sport for that matter.

IDK why people insist on making blanket statements when it comes to UFC pay and the people it effects.
Isn't the league minimum still like six figures? Phone Post 3.0

500k a year min for NFL. 


Not possible for the UFC to do...that is just reality. They are not the NFL.

I keep seeing things like NHL, NFL, MLB...crap like that. The entry level UFC fighter is never going to make a 500K minimum but just for arguements sake lets take a look at something...

I believe the UFC currently has around 600 fighters on contract... You want to pay a min. of $500,000 per year to the bottom 50% so there is $150 million right there. Then say the top 40% make $800K a year. That is another $192 million per year. Since everyone believes the people near the top deserve Mayweather money, then say the top 10% make 20 million a fight which accounts for another 1.2 billion dollars for them..

Payroll for UFC fighters- $1,542,000,000
Now they have to pay medical which would be at least $18K per fighter/per year. ($10,800,000)
Then they are supposed to offer 401K/Retirement...how much? Lets say 8% of the wages. ($123,360,000)

You are talking nearly 1.7 Billion Dollars and it hasn't even scratched the surface. The UFC still has to pay for travel, promotion of all kinds (TV, Radio, Appearances, Posters, etc..), salary of all of the people that make this stuff possible on a day to day, rentals for all properties, venues, and many...many other expenses. Then on top of all of that they are supposed to drop the price of PPV's because people bitch because it is too much money.

So the UFC is anywhere from 400-500 million in PPV Revenue per year. People expect them to pay out 2-3 billion a year in expenses, and at the same time cut the PPV cost down. Does anyone else see a problem with this?
4/25/13 12:39 AM
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JeffersonDArcyChoke
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djones -
kyle223 - Good stuff. While I don't know the whole picture, it does suck seeing some of the less popular guys getting $10,000-$20,000 a fight. Now, whether or not that includes additional money based on PPV buys, sponsorships, etc., who knows how much that is (rhetorically speaking). But you take that amount and subtract training expenses and other stuff, and these guys aren't making much money for putting their lives at stake.

My question is tho how many of us would really watch or attend a show headlined by "less popular" fighters?... I have been to many local shows and watched plenty of unknown fighters..the avg fan (non hardcore) will not spend $$ to see these guys... and there in lies the problem... to make huge money you have to be a great fighter or a great personality

The UFC sells on name alone.

This is why they really don't build individual fighters or promote individuals save for Ronda/GSP/Silva/Jones.

The UFC announces zero fights and still sells tickets.

If the UFC decided to head to Montana behind an Amir Sadollah main event; it would sell tickets because those people never get a show and would be paying to see the UFC rather than any one fighter.

Dana is like Oprah with how many times he has been featured on the cover of his own magazine.

If you promote individuals it pays off with bigger buy rates BUT you give these fighters leverage they can use.

By promoting the brand name of UFC you retain all leverage.

With the way the UFC cuts guys and signs new talent it's clear they are selling a brand like the Harlem Globetrotters for the most part and that's a more solvent plan than banking on one guy and risking injury/retirement/hopping ship. Phone Post
4/25/13 12:40 AM
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dubate
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willienugget - I got sucked into something else. To your point, you are correct. An entry level UFC fighter does not deserve to make 500k a year.

What you replied to though has nothing to do with whether or not an entry level fighter deserves 500k per year. It's about whether or not an NFL player earning the minumum could retire after a few years. Why we're talking about that? I'm not sure.
Well just as an exercise let's say there's a player that makes the league minimum for four years who is then released and never catches on with another team. That give him a career salary of 2 million dollars. Of that two million dollars 15 percent goes to his agent and 35 percent goes to the federal government and roughly 12 goes to state governments ( players get paid per game and whatever state they are in when they play they have to pay that states tax. So right off the bat that two million dollars isn't two million it's 40% of 2 million or $800,000. If you figure the average salary of an American is $40,000 that comes out to 20 years of income in four years now someone just has to show me a 21 year old who gets paid a half a million dollars a year and invests/saves it like it has to last him the rest of his life. Phone Post
4/25/13 12:52 AM
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bigsakimoto
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The NFL players have a union, UFC not so much. Therein lies the difference.
4/25/13 1:10 AM
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jimbonice
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Ken's right about this. Phone Post
4/25/13 1:18 AM
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Whambo
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Outlaw'd by Lytle - 
MTomlinson - Series of bad points by Ken, who clearly doesn't understand capitalism.

anything's value, or a fighter's value, is worth ONLY and EXACTLY what someone else is willing to pay for it, not what Ken THINKS should be paid.

it's the Fertitta's business. They're not forcing anyone to sign any contract.

Correct. Phone Post 3.0

When one company has so much control of the market they can essentially pay fighters whatever they decide. This is why a union is necessary.

You act as if capitalism is just perfect. There are tons a rules and regulations put in place to protect workers. However they only do much, especially in such a new sport, and a government body that reacts so slowly.

Why do you think the Mohammed Ali act was put in place for boxing? Why didn't the Gov just say oh capitalism is perfect nevermind!

Ken is far from the first to accuse Zuffa of hiding money. The report ESPN did quoted a ridiculously low revenue % going to the fighters. Zuffa refuted the #, but didn't say how much actually goes to the fighters. Compare this to the NHL, they just went to a 50/50 split. I think ESPN quoted less than 5% going to the fighters for the UFC. I'm not saying the report is accurate, but I can tell you there is no way they're even in the ball park of 50%. I highly doubt they're even close to 25.
4/25/13 1:27 AM
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CindyO
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awesomestprime - Ken is some body who believes he deserves the overinflated status given to him because of his fame.

Fighters should fight for a few years and retire? Really? Why not the guy who does exterminating or HVAC who's ruined his knees? Why not the guy who's roofed for years and destroyed his entire body? The contractors and business owners they work for also make loads of money.

People today think way to highly of famous people and especially entertainers. Ken thinks way to highly of himself. I've always found it absurd the way athletes and entertainers are looked at like they DESERVE to be millionaires. I believe it's just another thing the fans want to live vicariously through their favorite pop star, actor, or athlete.

Employees DESERVE fair market value. They are worth what someone is willing to pay them, not a penny more. Just like the rest of the world.

They are not special. They do not need special treatment. And they sure as hell don't all DESERVE to retire by 30 years old. If they can? Good for them. They've done well for themselves and have EARNED it.


When you're right, you're right! Voted up:)

 

Cindy

4/25/13 1:33 AM
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daba
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It's big business and like most bug businesses they will screw the little guy over.

I don't think it's right but like many billion dollar companies, there will be people getting screwed over. At this point it's more bothersome how brainwashed some ppl are when they defend Zuffa and how crappily many guys get paid Phone Post 3.0
4/25/13 2:18 AM
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dubate
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Whambo -
Outlaw'd by Lytle - 
MTomlinson - Series of bad points by Ken, who clearly doesn't understand capitalism.

anything's value, or a fighter's value, is worth ONLY and EXACTLY what someone else is willing to pay for it, not what Ken THINKS should be paid.

it's the Fertitta's business. They're not forcing anyone to sign any contract.

Correct. Phone Post 3.0

When one company has so much control of the market they can essentially pay fighters whatever they decide. This is why a union is necessary.

You act as if capitalism is just perfect. There are tons a rules and regulations put in place to protect workers. However they only do much, especially in such a new sport, and a government body that reacts so slowly.

Why do you think the Mohammed Ali act was put in place for boxing? Why didn't the Gov just say oh capitalism is perfect nevermind!

Ken is far from the first to accuse Zuffa of hiding money. The report ESPN did quoted a ridiculously low revenue % going to the fighters. Zuffa refuted the #, but didn't say how much actually goes to the fighters. Compare this to the NHL, they just went to a 50/50 split. I think ESPN quoted less than 5% going to the fighters for the UFC. I'm not saying the report is accurate, but I can tell you there is no way they're even in the ball park of 50%. I highly doubt they're even close to 25.
Most professional teams don't have to rent out a venue in order to host their events. Most teams don't even pay for the stadiums they play in. They get taxpayers to pay for them and tax breaks on top of that. They also have profit sharing to decrease the risk of running a team. In fact outside of salaries (which is the 50 percent you're talking about) the teams have very little overhead that isn't related to the day to day employees and operations. Phone Post
4/25/13 2:28 AM
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ShanTheMan
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LeftLowKick - this coming from a guy who when standing around at a fan expo was asked to take a pic and said no, because he wouldn't take a pic with anyone unless they came to his booth and bought merchandise first

I had a similar experience with Shammy. Screw him.
4/25/13 2:34 AM
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CindyO
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JerodR - The bigger the draw, the better the performance, the more money you make. It isn't that hard to understand. Even if you are an undercard guy but put on a great performance the UFC gives pretty good bonus's for doing so.

I love how people expect the PPV cost to go down, if not free. They expect the UFC to hire and keep just about every fighter under the sun because god forbid nobody gets let go. Then people expect full medical, retirement, and huge minimum pay for these fighters. At the same time they all want to see the top guys make Mayweather money as well. All while being the one that promotes the events, rents the venues, provides all the travel, expands into new markets, etc, etc, etc.... Finally what do the people that own the UFC get for all of this risk and overhead...next to nothing because people also expect people like Dana, Lorenzo, and company to make little money as well because it should all go to the fighters.

Sorry people, but the numbers don't add up. If you think it does then you should never, ever own a business. Of course if you think you can do better that is an option... It has worked out well for so many others.

 

Cindy

4/25/13 2:36 AM
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Kneeblock
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Vale_Tudo_83 -  The reason mma fighters make so littel compared to boxing is the ufc wants to keep them hungry.

Dana talks about it in that stanford business interview.

He said basicly if guy get to rich they lose the drive and do the bare minimum to win. Since the have a big payday in there pocket. Phone Post

lol anyone who believes that deserves to have irons clapped on them and be shipped right to the plantation. What a load of crap.

4/25/13 3:32 AM
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CaptainBurma
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sirjoshua - "They are putting 100k paintings on the wall instead of putting 100k in their fighters pocket"

Coolz...I'm working on a 9' X 5' painting depicting Burmese boxers...hit me up in a couple of months Dana! ;)
4/25/13 4:19 AM
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MMALOGIC
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willienugget - 
CindyO - 
awesomestprime - Ken is some body who believes he deserves the overinflated status given to him because of his fame.

Fighters should fight for a few years and retire? Really? Why not the guy who does exterminating or HVAC who's ruined his knees? Why not the guy who's roofed for years and destroyed his entire body? The contractors and business owners they work for also make loads of money.

People today think way to highly of famous people and especially entertainers. Ken thinks way to highly of himself. I've always found it absurd the way athletes and entertainers are looked at like they DESERVE to be millionaires. I believe it's just another thing the fans want to live vicariously through their favorite pop star, actor, or athlete.

Employees DESERVE fair market value. They are worth what someone is willing to pay them, not a penny more. Just like the rest of the world.

They are not special. They do not need special treatment. And they sure as hell don't all DESERVE to retire by 30 years old. If they can? Good for them. They've done well for themselves and have EARNED it.


When you're right, you're right! Voted up:)

 

Cindy


Well in fairness, the HVAC dude didn't blow his knees out in three years for your entertainment. Some of the fighters Ken is talking about just might earn less than your HVAC guy. How about just paying them more while they're fighting and leave it up to them to retire or not?


if they earn less, then they should do HVAC instead of fighting.

4/25/13 4:30 AM
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CaptainBurma
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Am I the only one on this thread that wants to see the paintings Dana paid 100K for? Seriously, I'm an artist, & I'm curious...:)
4/25/13 6:20 AM
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CaptainBurma
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willienugget - 
CaptainBurma - Am I the only one on this thread that wants to see the paintings Dana paid 100K for? Seriously, I'm an artist, & I'm curious...:)

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/433409/The-art-in-Dana-Whites-office/

Thanks willie! VU! I like the Sabrertooth skull & the photos. :)
4/25/13 6:48 AM
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MachidasBrew
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MTomlinson - Series of bad points by Ken, who clearly doesn't understand capitalism.

anything's value, or a fighter's value, is worth ONLY and EXACTLY what someone else is willing to pay for it, not what Ken THINKS should be paid.

it's the Fertitta's business. They're not forcing anyone to sign any contract.

FUCK CAPITALISM Phone Post 3.0
4/25/13 6:51 AM
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MachidasBrew
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SamboMMA -
Vale_Tudo_83 -  The reason mma fighters make so littel compared to boxing is the ufc wants to keep them hungry.

Dana talks about it in that stanford business interview.

He said basicly if guy get to rich they lose the drive and do the bare minimum to win. Since the have a big payday in there pocket. Phone Post

This proves what a Cult of Personality revolves around Dana White. Any other Promoter who says they deliberatly underpay their fighters would have been crucified already.
THIS Phone Post 3.0
4/25/13 6:55 AM
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MachidasBrew
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CindyO -
mose - given his well-documented history, i am not surprised that shamrock doesn't understand how capitalism works.

He's gonna understand how bankrupcy court works if he doesn't stop the shit talking. He owes them 6 figures in atty fees. Folks could say this documented roider, accused fight-thrower, and worlds most easiest cut man is taking advantage of the fans when he steps inside the cage/ring:)

 

Cindy

Fucking fighter bashing right there... GTFO you fucking shill, seriously you're just as crude as Dana. Phone Post 3.0
4/25/13 7:17 AM
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awesomestprime
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willienugget - 
CindyO - 
awesomestprime - Ken is some body who believes he deserves the overinflated status given to him because of his fame.

Fighters should fight for a few years and retire? Really? Why not the guy who does exterminating or HVAC who's ruined his knees? Why not the guy who's roofed for years and destroyed his entire body? The contractors and business owners they work for also make loads of money.

People today think way to highly of famous people and especially entertainers. Ken thinks way to highly of himself. I've always found it absurd the way athletes and entertainers are looked at like they DESERVE to be millionaires. I believe it's just another thing the fans want to live vicariously through their favorite pop star, actor, or athlete.

Employees DESERVE fair market value. They are worth what someone is willing to pay them, not a penny more. Just like the rest of the world.

They are not special. They do not need special treatment. And they sure as hell don't all DESERVE to retire by 30 years old. If they can? Good for them. They've done well for themselves and have EARNED it.


When you're right, you're right! Voted up:)

 

Cindy


Well in fairness, the HVAC dude didn't blow his knees out in three years for your entertainment. Some of the fighters Ken is talking about just might earn less than your HVAC guy. How about just paying them more while they're fighting and leave it up to them to retire or not?


Yes he did. He kept your house cool.

I don't know about you, but I'd give up MMA before I would AC.

And if you want to get rich, don't get into the fight business. Go to law/med school or start a business.
4/25/13 9:30 AM
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mm370
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Whether its fair or not, is irrelevant. The UFC can do what they want with their business. If fighters think they are being under paid, find another org. to fight for or find another line of work. Phone Post 3.0
4/25/13 9:41 AM
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shaqitup
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Othello - So a persistent undercard fighter in the UFC has 10 fights and he can retire for life? Seriously Shamrock?? I wonder how many NFL players making the league minimum can play a couple seasons then retire for life? Or MLB,NHL..... any professional sport for that matter.

IDK why people insist on making blanket statements when it comes to UFC pay and the people it effects.

the minimum an NFL player will make in 3 years is like 1.5 million.

 

What lower level UFC fighter makes even close to that in their entire career?

Not saying they should make that much, but why use such a silly comparison.

 

 

4/25/13 9:47 AM
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DEZBOT
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Nucky -

A Private company who cornered the market and gained a full on monopoly by buying out the competition is taking advantage of their employees? SAY IT AINT SO!!!!.

And because of that u get the top 2 guys in the world from each division regularly competing on free to air cards for your entertainment, any other way everyone here will still be bitching about something, every mma fan out there does not know how lucky they are that the UFC exists Phone Post
4/25/13 10:22 AM
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Lux Fixxins
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Nucky -

A Private company who cornered the market and gained a full on monopoly by buying out the competition is taking advantage of their employees? SAY IT AINT SO!!!!.

You.... Don't know stuff. Do you? Phone Post 3.0

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