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UnderGround Forums >> Ken Shamrock: "UFC is taking advantage of fighters


4/25/13 11:45 AM
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Viet Rounder
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When I stream, I only watch the headliner fights and big names.

When I go to Hooters, I only catch the headliner fights and big names.

When I pool and order for a paper view I go to the bathroom or kitchen during the prelims.

Fighters get paid for what they are worth. Put some asses in the seat and I guarantee you even fighters can afford 100K paintings on the wall.
4/25/13 11:51 AM
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LEET060
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Greg Savage said on sherdog radio this past weekend "UFC makes money only of 5% of the fighters, the other 95% UFC is losing money on."

Jordan Breen said on sherdog radio a while back "UFC puts more money back into the sport, than boxing does for boxing."
4/25/13 11:55 AM
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Attila
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MTomlinson - Series of bad points by Ken, who clearly doesn't understand capitalism.

anything's value, or a fighter's value, is worth ONLY and EXACTLY what someone else is willing to pay for it, not what Ken THINKS should be paid.

it's the Fertitta's business. They're not forcing anyone to sign any contract.


So anyone who criticizes how a company treats its employees doesn't understand capitalism? Even from a purely libertarian point of view, that's bullshit.
4/25/13 1:59 PM
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Whambo
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dubate - 
Whambo -
Outlaw'd by Lytle - 
MTomlinson - Series of bad points by Ken, who clearly doesn't understand capitalism.

anything's value, or a fighter's value, is worth ONLY and EXACTLY what someone else is willing to pay for it, not what Ken THINKS should be paid.

it's the Fertitta's business. They're not forcing anyone to sign any contract.

Correct. Phone Post 3.0

When one company has so much control of the market they can essentially pay fighters whatever they decide. This is why a union is necessary.

You act as if capitalism is just perfect. There are tons a rules and regulations put in place to protect workers. However they only do much, especially in such a new sport, and a government body that reacts so slowly.

Why do you think the Mohammed Ali act was put in place for boxing? Why didn't the Gov just say oh capitalism is perfect nevermind!

Ken is far from the first to accuse Zuffa of hiding money. The report ESPN did quoted a ridiculously low revenue % going to the fighters. Zuffa refuted the #, but didn't say how much actually goes to the fighters. Compare this to the NHL, they just went to a 50/50 split. I think ESPN quoted less than 5% going to the fighters for the UFC. I'm not saying the report is accurate, but I can tell you there is no way they're even in the ball park of 50%. I highly doubt they're even close to 25.
Most professional teams don't have to rent out a venue in order to host their events. Most teams don't even pay for the stadiums they play in. They get taxpayers to pay for them and tax breaks on top of that. They also have profit sharing to decrease the risk of running a team. In fact outside of salaries (which is the 50 percent you're talking about) the teams have very little overhead that isn't related to the day to day employees and operations. Phone Post

I understand that, that's why I wouldn't expect the UFC to be able to pay 50% in salaries. But look at how salaries jumped up in pro sports due to the leverage provided by their unions, and the owners are still able to make substantial profits.

The unions fight for things like the player pension fund, making sure that guys who sacrificed so much of their lives are still taken care of. Many hockey players make more than their market value with the addition of min salaries at the expense of the star players making even more money. Maybe Sidney Crosby could make 14 mil a year instead of 11 without this, but things like that are done for the health of the sport and best interest of the union as a whole.

I do not like seeing someone like Jon Jones making millions for a PPV and someone on the undercard make 5k. You can say it's fair, but is not good for the sport of the athletes as a whole. Those guys on the undercard are what help keep the sport alive, it keeps a fresh talent pool always coming up with skilled competitors. Right now as Ken said you're going to see big name fighters without a penny to their name. Look at Coleman, only way he got his hip surgery was begging a sponsoring company to keep him on their insurance or something like that.
4/25/13 2:20 PM
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RyannVonDoom
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JerodR -
RyannVonDoom - 
tommypatron - 
Othello - So a persistent undercard fighter in the UFC has 10 fights and he can retire for life? Seriously Shamrock?? I wonder how many NFL players making the league minimum can play a couple seasons then retire for life? Or MLB,NHL..... any professional sport for that matter.

IDK why people insist on making blanket statements when it comes to UFC pay and the people it effects.
Isn't the league minimum still like six figures? Phone Post 3.0

500k a year min for NFL. 


Not possible for the UFC to do...that is just reality. They are not the NFL.

I keep seeing things like NHL, NFL, MLB...crap like that. The entry level UFC fighter is never going to make a 500K minimum but just for arguements sake lets take a look at something...

I believe the UFC currently has around 600 fighters on contract... You want to pay a min. of $500,000 per year to the bottom 50% so there is $150 million right there. Then say the top 40% make $800K a year. That is another $192 million per year. Since everyone believes the people near the top deserve Mayweather money, then say the top 10% make 20 million a fight which accounts for another 1.2 billion dollars for them..

Payroll for UFC fighters- $1,542,000,000
Now they have to pay medical which would be at least $18K per fighter/per year. ($10,800,000)
Then they are supposed to offer 401K/Retirement...how much? Lets say 8% of the wages. ($123,360,000)

You are talking nearly 1.7 Billion Dollars and it hasn't even scratched the surface. The UFC still has to pay for travel, promotion of all kinds (TV, Radio, Appearances, Posters, etc..), salary of all of the people that make this stuff possible on a day to day, rentals for all properties, venues, and many...many other expenses. Then on top of all of that they are supposed to drop the price of PPV's because people bitch because it is too much money.

So the UFC is anywhere from 400-500 million in PPV Revenue per year. People expect them to pay out 2-3 billion a year in expenses, and at the same time cut the PPV cost down. Does anyone else see a problem with this?
All indid was answer a question.

Dana himself has stated they are the nfl of mma. He makes the reference and people follow suit.

There should be a minimum, 500k? No. Enough for the up and comers to train only and not need a second job while being in the "nfl of mma." If they are in the ufc, they have earned a spot in the top org and deserve to only fight/train for a living. I also dont believe they should hve to rely on sponsorships for that either. It's on the ufc to pay them accordingly and the sponsorships are additional income that they shouldnt have to have to keep their heads above water.

@Mmalogic.. You said that if they make less than hvac guysthey should do tht instead? Do you understand how short sighted that statement is? If we had them leaving there would be no future of this sport we love. Think before you post, please. Phone Post 3.0
4/25/13 2:30 PM
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MTomlinson
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the lack of basic business acumen spewing from the posters on this thread is pretty disturbing.

If I start a lemonade stand, and hire a few kids around the block to work it for me, will the UG be here to call me an asshole when the kids say I don't pay them enough?

they don't have to work at the lemonade stand

they don't have to accept my offer

they can do anything at all they like with their lives besides working at my lemonade stand. No one forced them.

If my wages were unfair, I wouldn't have hordes of kids trying to come work for my lemonade stand

The UFC has hordes of kids wanting to come work for their lemonade stand.

where's the problem? are you people idiots? LOL

4/25/13 2:32 PM
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MTomlinson
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Edited: 04/25/13 2:32 PM
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and before any of you invoke the monopoly argument, please see Cindy's post from earlier.<br /><br />.....and then stop posting
4/25/13 3:32 PM
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Lux Fixxins
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Card -
"They are putting 100k paintings on the wall instead of putting 100k in their fighters pocket"
Translation: "I'm butt hurt I squandered my money" Phone Post 3.0
4/25/13 4:05 PM
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deadlysyn
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Boxers on average actually make less then UFC fighters only a very very very small number make the big numbers so little u could probably count it with your fingers Phone Post 3.0
4/25/13 5:06 PM
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Truemanc3
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Boxing is a sport... UFC is an Business!

MMA fighters at the top should be making much better money but they are all property of the UFC so it wont happen.
4/25/13 5:15 PM
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buvaiser
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wtf with all the hate for shamrock. respeck for one of the original gangstas of mma.
4/25/13 5:16 PM
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Ministry of Truth
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supersaiyan - kinda have to agree with ken on this

4/25/13 5:20 PM
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time traveling 12er
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I wonder how many of the people complaining about fighter pay are the same ones complaining that they wouldn't pay to see those fighters fight?  You want those lower end fighters to make 500k?   Would you pay 75$ to watch a card headlined by those same people?

4/25/13 5:40 PM
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Canooke
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time traveling 12er - 

I wonder how many of the people complaining about fighter pay are the same ones complaining that they wouldn't pay to see those fighters fight?  You want those lower end fighters to make 500k?   Would you pay 75$ to watch a card headlined by those same people?


God forbid the charitable ideas of socialists be carried out by funds from their own pockets. It's always what somebody else should do.
4/25/13 5:43 PM
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nexus6ca
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Kevin Arnold - 
CindyO - 
mose - given his well-documented history, i am not surprised that shamrock doesn't understand how capitalism works.

He's gonna understand how bankrupcy court works if he doesn't stop the shit talking. He owes them 6 figures in atty fees. Folks could say this documented roider, accused fight-thrower, and worlds most easiest cut man is taking advantage of the fans when he steps inside the cage/ring:)

 

Cindy


Pure propaganda from a Zuffa schil, what a shocker.

Just exactly what did CindyO say in that post that is untrue?

http://www.mmajunkie.com/news/2010/06/ken-shamrock-admits-to-steroid-use-2

Ken Shamrock has been accused of throwing a fight.

And Ken's cut after a pay dispute help bring down EliteXC.

Maybe CindyO is pro UFC but nothign she said in that post was untrue.
4/25/13 5:48 PM
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KingInFishnetsBottomingBetas
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1 MMA fight could never equal the entertainment value of 1 boxing fight. There are hardly ever wars in mma, but in boxing there are several week in and week out. That's why mma'ers will never make boxing money, when someone buys a gsp fight, they're essentially purchasing the same exact fight every ppv, while julio cesar chavez JR got fined more than GSP's purse lmfao.
4/25/13 6:03 PM
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JerodR
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Everyone keeps saying more money...but how much do you think an entry level, mid, and top level UFC fighter make? Remember...600 fighters. Just do the math.
4/25/13 6:18 PM
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56sav
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If Zuffa doesn't want to be criticized they shouldn't buy up rival organizations just to let them die, or have inter-organizational events IMO. They have a monopoly on the fight game. UFC needs a fighter's union.
4/25/13 6:30 PM
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JerodR
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This is a bit old...but interesting given the current conversation.

http://mmapayout.com/2010/10/the-state-of-the-ufc-address/
4/25/13 8:37 PM
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jbradanick08
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How much would the "least talented" fighter on the UFC roster have to make per fight to satisfy Shamrock's need to complain about fighter pay? That said, I would like to see fighter pay increase as well, but it seems like Shammy has an ax to grind and this is a safe, "fan and fighter friendly" way to do so. I would bet Shamrock has made a whole lot of dough between MMA and WWE and should be set for life and should not have to fight anymore to make a living! Sour grapes, if you ask me.
4/25/13 9:11 PM
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The Maccabee
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RyannVonDoom - 
JerodR -
RyannVonDoom - 
tommypatron - 
Othello - So a persistent undercard fighter in the UFC has 10 fights and he can retire for life? Seriously Shamrock?? I wonder how many NFL players making the league minimum can play a couple seasons then retire for life? Or MLB,NHL..... any professional sport for that matter.

IDK why people insist on making blanket statements when it comes to UFC pay and the people it effects.
Isn't the league minimum still like six figures? Phone Post 3.0

500k a year min for NFL. 


Not possible for the UFC to do...that is just reality. They are not the NFL.

I keep seeing things like NHL, NFL, MLB...crap like that. The entry level UFC fighter is never going to make a 500K minimum but just for arguements sake lets take a look at something...

I believe the UFC currently has around 600 fighters on contract... You want to pay a min. of $500,000 per year to the bottom 50% so there is $150 million right there. Then say the top 40% make $800K a year. That is another $192 million per year. Since everyone believes the people near the top deserve Mayweather money, then say the top 10% make 20 million a fight which accounts for another 1.2 billion dollars for them..

Payroll for UFC fighters- $1,542,000,000
Now they have to pay medical which would be at least $18K per fighter/per year. ($10,800,000)
Then they are supposed to offer 401K/Retirement...how much? Lets say 8% of the wages. ($123,360,000)

You are talking nearly 1.7 Billion Dollars and it hasn't even scratched the surface. The UFC still has to pay for travel, promotion of all kinds (TV, Radio, Appearances, Posters, etc..), salary of all of the people that make this stuff possible on a day to day, rentals for all properties, venues, and many...many other expenses. Then on top of all of that they are supposed to drop the price of PPV's because people bitch because it is too much money.

So the UFC is anywhere from 400-500 million in PPV Revenue per year. People expect them to pay out 2-3 billion a year in expenses, and at the same time cut the PPV cost down. Does anyone else see a problem with this?
All indid was answer a question.

Dana himself has stated they are the nfl of mma. He makes the reference and people follow suit.

There should be a minimum, 500k? No. Enough for the up and comers to train only and not need a second job while being in the "nfl of mma." If they are in the ufc, they have earned a spot in the top org and deserve to only fight/train for a living. I also dont believe they should hve to rely on sponsorships for that either. It's on the ufc to pay them accordingly and the sponsorships are additional income that they shouldnt have to have to keep their heads above water.

@Mmalogic.. You said that if they make less than hvac guysthey should do tht instead? Do you understand how short sighted that statement is? If we had them leaving there would be no future of this sport we love. Think before you post, please. Phone Post 3.0

I got all the disclosed numbers in this essay, jump to the exhibits at the bottom or the actual fighter salary analysis starting on page 8, probably help with the ballparking of #'s

http://www.scribd.com/doc/135451215/Are-UFC-Fighters-Underpaid
4/25/13 10:14 PM
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Colboyo
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Is Ken saying DANA REALLY MAKES Anderson Silva Money!?
4/26/13 12:23 AM
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hooha
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Ken also has knowledge of the hard realities of pro wrestling, which is a world that has a lot in common with MMA; the two even often overlap (Brock Lesnar, Bellator/TNA Wrestling, Josh Barnett,etc.).

How many tragedies have we seen there? Everything Ken was talking about; poverty, crime, suicide, etc. 

We read about the effects of fighting/pro wrestling: a lifetime of concussions causing depression and violence,  broken bodies/minds from a lifetime of training and fighting and weight cutting - not your average sport!

Pro wrestling is an old craft and pro MMA is young, but we've already read so many tragic stories here on the UG involving MMA fighters. And how horrible is it to read stories about (like other have pointed out in this thread) guys in situations like Mark Coleman?

All you folks posting here, capitalist or otherwise, say what you want about money and business and economics:

If any of us (for whatever reason, right or wrong) ever found ourselves in a position of a badly broken down and impovrished fighter - in pain, brain damaged, suffering and without money and support - you wouldn't be talking about economics.

 

 

4/26/13 12:57 AM
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RyannVonDoom
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The Maccabee - 
RyannVonDoom - 
JerodR -
RyannVonDoom - 
tommypatron - 
Othello - So a persistent undercard fighter in the UFC has 10 fights and he can retire for life? Seriously Shamrock?? I wonder how many NFL players making the league minimum can play a couple seasons then retire for life? Or MLB,NHL..... any professional sport for that matter.

IDK why people insist on making blanket statements when it comes to UFC pay and the people it effects.
Isn't the league minimum still like six figures? Phone Post 3.0

500k a year min for NFL. 


Not possible for the UFC to do...that is just reality. They are not the NFL.

I keep seeing things like NHL, NFL, MLB...crap like that. The entry level UFC fighter is never going to make a 500K minimum but just for arguements sake lets take a look at something...

I believe the UFC currently has around 600 fighters on contract... You want to pay a min. of $500,000 per year to the bottom 50% so there is $150 million right there. Then say the top 40% make $800K a year. That is another $192 million per year. Since everyone believes the people near the top deserve Mayweather money, then say the top 10% make 20 million a fight which accounts for another 1.2 billion dollars for them..

Payroll for UFC fighters- $1,542,000,000
Now they have to pay medical which would be at least $18K per fighter/per year. ($10,800,000)
Then they are supposed to offer 401K/Retirement...how much? Lets say 8% of the wages. ($123,360,000)

You are talking nearly 1.7 Billion Dollars and it hasn't even scratched the surface. The UFC still has to pay for travel, promotion of all kinds (TV, Radio, Appearances, Posters, etc..), salary of all of the people that make this stuff possible on a day to day, rentals for all properties, venues, and many...many other expenses. Then on top of all of that they are supposed to drop the price of PPV's because people bitch because it is too much money.

So the UFC is anywhere from 400-500 million in PPV Revenue per year. People expect them to pay out 2-3 billion a year in expenses, and at the same time cut the PPV cost down. Does anyone else see a problem with this?
All indid was answer a question.

Dana himself has stated they are the nfl of mma. He makes the reference and people follow suit.

There should be a minimum, 500k? No. Enough for the up and comers to train only and not need a second job while being in the "nfl of mma." If they are in the ufc, they have earned a spot in the top org and deserve to only fight/train for a living. I also dont believe they should hve to rely on sponsorships for that either. It's on the ufc to pay them accordingly and the sponsorships are additional income that they shouldnt have to have to keep their heads above water.

@Mmalogic.. You said that if they make less than hvac guysthey should do tht instead? Do you understand how short sighted that statement is? If we had them leaving there would be no future of this sport we love. Think before you post, please. Phone Post 3.0

I got all the disclosed numbers in this essay, jump to the exhibits at the bottom or the actual fighter salary analysis starting on page 8, probably help with the ballparking of #'s

http://www.scribd.com/doc/135451215/Are-UFC-Fighters-Underpaid

Cool. Just got to my system, will give that a read after my classwork is done. 

4/26/13 1:28 AM
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SamboReigns
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ttt for later.

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