UnderGround Forums
 

UnderGround Forums >> PRIME Frank Shamrock vs PRIME Kazushi Sakuraba

| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

5/7/13 6:15 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
PeterIrl
39 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9919
Saku takes this by sub.
5/7/13 6:21 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
simonpe
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/26/11
Posts: 1197
WALES1 - Prime Shamrock had it all.

Tapping out an Olympic gold medal wrestler in 16 seconds - this is one of the most underrated moments in MMA.

His slam on Zinoviev.

Beating Tito and his war with Enson. Phone Post 3.0
Wrestlers were so hard to tap back then... said no one ever

Saku all day Phone Post
5/7/13 6:24 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
malryan
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/2/11
Posts: 161
I like Frank for this speculative fight, but Sak was a beast, hmmm I don't know actually, wish we could go back in time and somehow make the fight happen. Also how do you define Sakurabas prime? Phone Post 3.0
5/7/13 6:30 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Jons Forsberg
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 16027
Saku takes him down at will, best single leg in the biz and Frank's TDD was non-existant.
5/7/13 6:44 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
DMC
52 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/02
Posts: 3446
Jons Forsberg - Saku takes him down at will, best single leg in the biz and Frank's TDD was non-existant.
Yup.

My money's on Sak via decision or maybe sub.

Hard to call though - one of the greatest fights that never happened :( Phone Post 3.0
5/7/13 7:30 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Nick Diaz Fan
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/13/11
Posts: 519
Saku Phone Post 3.0
5/7/13 7:37 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WarAJS
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/14/12
Posts: 114
Prime Shamrock ftw
5/7/13 8:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kneeblock
118 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 35128

You have to remember, if we're talking primes, the fight would've been in Japan where taking a person down doesn't necessarily do you any favors in the judges eyes. Sak may have run the pipe on that single, but then what? Sak's grappling game wasn't necessarily positionally strong as much as it was a counterattacking style. Frank's sub game would've at least matched Sak's. 

On the feet, Frank had a clear advantage, but Sak's creativity could've taken Frank a little out of his game as that was always sort of an issue for him. 

Sak fought three of Frank's former teammates, Tiger White, Guy Mezger and Ken Shamrock. The Tiger fight was more or less a straight grappling match, which Sak won, but Vernon was never the grappler Frank was. The Mezger match was a clear win for Guy (like most of Sak's matches against strikers) though it was overshadowed by rules ambiguity and possible outright promotional chicanery. The Ken fight was just weird. It was either a job or a robbery.

They had a number of common opponents such as Allen Goes, Renzo, Tamura and Funaki, but they faced each of these guys at very different points in their career. A green Frank did much better against a young Goes than a relatively green Saku did against more experienced Goes. Sak beat Renzo, but it seems Renzo was on his way to beating Frank (though we'll never know). Tamura was a draw for Frank and a loss for an aged Sak. Funaki was basically teaching Frank in their fights, but was a shell of himself by the time he got taken out by Sak. 

There's no easy way to convincingly say who would have won. All I know is that people got so lost in the clamor for Sak vs. Rickson that this fight was barely mentioned even though it could have been made around the same time. Frank was cleared of his UFC contract drama by 2000 since he fought Elvis. Rickson had just fought Funaki earlier that year, but his son passed not long after. Pride should have moved heaven and earth to build a narrative of Sak having defeated one first family of Mixed Martial Arts and now moving on to another once it was clear the Rickson fight was out of reach. Frank said in interviews in the intervening years leading up to his return stateside in WEC that he would've loved to fight Sak since they both came from the Fujiwara lineage. But neither fans nor promoters seemed to care much for whatever reason. I suspect Frank had priced himself out and they didn't think they could get the return they would on a Rickson fight. Alternately they just didn't want to lose their meal ticket.

Interestingly, in his heyday, Sak fought only 5 Americans: White, Mezger, Randleman and Rampage. You could throw Ken in there, but by then, both were edging past their prime. The two guys I always felt he should've fought and never did were Dan Henderson and Frank. In either fight at the time, it would've been a toss-up. 

I wish we'd gotten some of these great battles, but we got plenty of others so I can't be too upset. Still...

5/7/13 8:08 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
deedzBJJ
3 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/21/07
Posts: 422
Saku would tap frank no doubt. Phone Post
5/7/13 8:22 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
OUTCOLD
28 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/11/06
Posts: 2558
Leaning towards Saku but Frank was a beast.
5/7/13 8:23 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
El Ninja
25 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/1/09
Posts: 504
WALES1 - Prime Shamrock had it all.

Tapping out an Olympic gold medal wrestler in 16 seconds - this is one of the most underrated moments in MMA.

His slam on Zinoviev.

Beating Tito and his war with Enson. Phone Post 3.0
VTFU for truth, proper spelling and sheer awesome! Phone Post 3.0
5/7/13 8:31 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
KSloane
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/9/13
Posts: 19
Great thread!! Two of the best fighters from two of the best MMA organizations (SEG UFC and Pride) .... SEG UFC and PRIDE never die!!!
5/7/13 9:47 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WALES1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/4/09
Posts: 7517
simonpe -
WALES1 - Prime Shamrock had it all.

Tapping out an Olympic gold medal wrestler in 16 seconds - this is one of the most underrated moments in MMA.

His slam on Zinoviev.

Beating Tito and his war with Enson. Phone Post 3.0
Wrestlers were so hard to tap back then... said no one ever

Saku all day Phone Post
Fucking LOL at making out that tapping a monster like Kevin Jackson in 16 seconds as nothing special. Phone Post 3.0
5/7/13 10:07 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tito Or Tease
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/9/10
Posts: 628
Sakuraba.

Shamrock's weakness was wrestling and Sak had great takedowns. One of Shamrock's weapons was cardio but it would be nullified by Saku's smokers cardio.

5/7/13 12:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SKARHEAD
59 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/11/04
Posts: 36182
After seeing PRIME SHamrock vs Tamura....Sakuraba all day....Tamura got caught in a flash sub (Sakurab would not be)....but after that it was ALL Tamura via superior wrestling.




Frank couldn't wrestle for shit and was forever losing position to wrestlers and solid BJJ guys...He would simply not be able to stay on the feet to get anything done....and on the ground he would be controlled by a better wrestler w/ superior subs and sub defense....Frank would be essentially helpless.
5/7/13 12:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Pro Ice
2138 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/6/09
Posts: 8556

Iirc this fight was supposed / rumoured to happen at Pride 10, not sure why it fell through

Also interesting that they have the same linage

5/7/13 12:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SKARHEAD
59 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/11/04
Posts: 36183
Kneeblock - 

You have to remember, if we're talking primes, the fight would've been in Japan where taking a person down doesn't necessarily do you any favors in the judges eyes. Sak may have run the pipe on that single, but then what? Sak's grappling game wasn't necessarily positionally strong as much as it was a counterattacking style. Frank's sub game would've at least matched Sak's. 

On the feet, Frank had a clear advantage, but Sak's creativity could've taken Frank a little out of his game as that was always sort of an issue for him. 

Sak fought three of Frank's former teammates, Tiger White, Guy Mezger and Ken Shamrock. The Tiger fight was more or less a straight grappling match, which Sak won, but Vernon was never the grappler Frank was. The Mezger match was a clear win for Guy (like most of Sak's matches against strikers) though it was overshadowed by rules ambiguity and possible outright promotional chicanery. The Ken fight was just weird. It was either a job or a robbery.

They had a number of common opponents such as Allen Goes, Renzo, Tamura and Funaki, but they faced each of these guys at very different points in their career. A green Frank did much better against a young Goes than a relatively green Saku did against more experienced Goes. Sak beat Renzo, but it seems Renzo was on his way to beating Frank (though we'll never know). Tamura was a draw for Frank and a loss for an aged Sak. Funaki was basically teaching Frank in their fights, but was a shell of himself by the time he got taken out by Sak. 

There's no easy way to convincingly say who would have won. All I know is that people got so lost in the clamor for Sak vs. Rickson that this fight was barely mentioned even though it could have been made around the same time. Frank was cleared of his UFC contract drama by 2000 since he fought Elvis. Rickson had just fought Funaki earlier that year, but his son passed not long after. Pride should have moved heaven and earth to build a narrative of Sak having defeated one first family of Mixed Martial Arts and now moving on to another once it was clear the Rickson fight was out of reach. Frank said in interviews in the intervening years leading up to his return stateside in WEC that he would've loved to fight Sak since they both came from the Fujiwara lineage. But neither fans nor promoters seemed to care much for whatever reason. I suspect Frank had priced himself out and they didn't think they could get the return they would on a Rickson fight. Alternately they just didn't want to lose their meal ticket.

Interestingly, in his heyday, Sak fought only 5 Americans: White, Mezger, Randleman and Rampage. You could throw Ken in there, but by then, both were edging past their prime. The two guys I always felt he should've fought and never did were Dan Henderson and Frank. In either fight at the time, it would've been a toss-up. 

I wish we'd gotten some of these great battles, but we got plenty of others so I can't be too upset. Still...


No, Sakuraba all day. They have a similar lineage, but Frank's entire fighting style is just a very watered down version of the Catch wrestling style that Sakuraba mastered....except Frank couldn't actually wrestle for shit.


Sakuraba destroys him on the feet w/ leg kicks....easily gets the SL takedown...and easily controls Frank from the top on the way to a sub or just embarrassing him from the top w/ all sorts of tactics.
5/7/13 2:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
whoabro
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/22/07
Posts: 9171
Wut

Saku would take him down at WILL-- his low single was insanely fast. Not sure if hed get the sub or not but he would easily dominate the grappling. Phone Post 3.0
5/7/13 2:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Truemanc3
9 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/11/06
Posts: 4599
I think Frank had the edge in the stand up and Sak on the floor.

Its a tough one but Id say Sak eks out the win.

Both in their day were very good.

Its a shame it never happened.

I always said at the time it would have been a great match.
5/7/13 2:15 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
HERTSWENIP
65 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6570
After seeing what Horn did to Frank, saku easy. Frank didn't try to stop TD's back then as he had total confidence in his submisson over position ground game, but it wasn't on saku's level.
5/7/13 2:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SamboMMA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/6/08
Posts: 3733
Pro Ice - 

Iirc this fight was supposed / rumoured to happen at Pride 10, not sure why it fell through

Also interesting that they have the same linage


Frank just loved to hear himself talk at that point. He was always saying he would submit Saku with ease or would KO Wand with ease. Then when the fights were offered to him he wouldn't sign.
5/7/13 2:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
King Trav
420 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/8/09
Posts: 236
WALES1 - Prime Shamrock had it all.

Tapping out an Olympic gold medal wrestler in 16 seconds - this is one of the most underrated moments in MMA.

His slam on Zinoviev.

Beating Tito and his war with Enson. Phone Post 3.0
Tapped horn too. And that guys no slouch on the ground. Cool match up though. Catch wrestling vs catch wrestling.

Side question...has there been any big name catch wrestling vs catch wrestling match ups? Just off the top of my head I can't really think of any. I'm sure if I sat and thought about it, I'd remember some... Phone Post 3.0
5/7/13 2:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
King Trav
420 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/8/09
Posts: 237
Jons Forsberg - Saku takes him down at will, best single leg in the biz and Frank's TDD was non-existant.
Even today saku's single is the best ever in mma. Sooooo smooth. I saw a highlight of just his single years ago. It was awesome. Phone Post 3.0
5/7/13 4:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Funaki Masakatsu #1
179 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/18/09
Posts: 2997
"Frank's takedown defense sucks" isn't accurate, in my opinion. Frank's takedown defense definitely wasn't top tier but he liked fighting off his back and he didn't believe in expending a lot of energy trying to fight off takedowns in an effort to be more efficient with his cardio and endurance. He also liked going for submissions straight off takedowns and scrambles; he caught Tamura in a super slick armbar off a double leg takedown, he armbared Kevin Jackson off a double leg, and he nearly caught Tito in an armbar immediately after a takedown.

Frank went to train with the Stanford wrestling team to prepare for Tito and brought in bigger wrestlers to help him prepare. His wrestling coaches were the coaches of the Stanford team, IIRC. He wasn't inept at wrestling.

That said, I don't think there's any way he taps Sakuraba so Frank needs to abandon that style and defend takedowns and when he gets taken down he needs to scramble to his feet and work his superior kickboxing. Phone Post 3.0
5/7/13 4:27 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
CharlesLewis
785 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 19961
WALES1 - 
simonpe -
WALES1 - Prime Shamrock had it all.

Tapping out an Olympic gold medal wrestler in 16 seconds - this is one of the most underrated moments in MMA.

His slam on Zinoviev.

Beating Tito and his war with Enson. Phone Post 3.0
Wrestlers were so hard to tap back then... said no one ever

Saku all day Phone Post
Fucking LOL at making out that tapping a monster like Kevin Jackson in 16 seconds as nothing special. Phone Post 3.0

I would have been more impressed if he had tapped Kevin after ten minutes on the ground with him. Catching a new-to-MMA wrestler with a quick armbar was something that used to happen a lot back then. Both guys dry, Kevin gets what he feels is the good position early and overextends... it happens. Not shitting on the win but it wasn't like he outmanuvered him and subbed him after a battle... I was far more impressed that he finished Horn, even if it seemed like a brainfart gimmie from Jeremy's side.


| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.