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UnderGround Forums >> Pride Hendo vs Prime Saku


5/11/13 1:28 PM
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Smith1234
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Just because a fighter fights above his weight class, that does not make him that higher weightclass. Even if said fighter gains weight to qualify for the weightclass.

For example Sak is a MW, not a LHW, no matter how much he fought at 205. Phone Post 3.0
5/11/13 1:35 PM
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Wasa-B
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Smith1234 - Just because a fighter fights above his weight class, that does not make him that higher weightclass. Even if said fighter gains weight to qualify for the weightclass.

For example Sak is a MW, not a LHW, no matter how much he fought at 205. Phone Post 3.0

Sak was actually about today's WW range when he was in his prime or smaller than GSP. Sak was listed at 183 for most of his prime years. Even when he was fat and old, he still had a MW frame at best and he never cut weight anyhow.

BJ fought at MW and Machida at HW (though he didnt actually weigh over 205) and also has huge wins at WW, doesnt change the fact that he is still a LW.

There was always talk of how small Fedor was at HW and that was part of his greatness as a HW. CC was also a small HW. Both of those guys could have likely made 205. Is this also a "slur" against those guys beause we're talking their actual weight range?

Dan has and still can make 185. When he fights at LHW, he is still a MW fighting at LHW, he is smaller than all of his LHW opponents. He weighed in at 207 for his fight with Fedor when most LHWs are around 220 for LHW bouts. Everyone knows this and think by pointing out actual numerical facts, its a "slur" or you're considered a Dana/Zuffa troll.

To deny that Dan is a MW is more of the nut-huggin vein than being a troll of any other.

- Still a huge Fedor fan
5/11/13 1:39 PM
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Wasa-B
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Also regarding Franklin, if he cannot make 185 anymore, then he is no longer a MW. But is it confirmed that he can no longer make the weight or was he fighting at catch weights or LHW because he had no where left to go at MW?

And...do we remember how small he was compared to Forrest?

Its not uncommon for a fighter to fight at weight but have to go up when he gets older. Andy used to be a WW but since he cannot make 170 anymore, or hasnt, and has fought at MW, he is a MW. He has also fought at LHW but he can still make 185 and thus is a MW.

Again, will always be a Fedor fan and lol at me needing to prove this from anyone who's been around the forum thru the Fedor years but its nothing more than nut-hugging denial to say Dan is not a MW.

Just because he cant beat Anderson but beat Shogun (again, in controverisal fashion) doesnt change his weight or size.
5/12/13 11:43 AM
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SKARHEAD
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Wasa-B - 
Smith1234 - Just because a fighter fights above his weight class, that does not make him that higher weightclass. Even if said fighter gains weight to qualify for the weightclass.

For example Sak is a MW, not a LHW, no matter how much he fought at 205. Phone Post 3.0

Sak was actually about today's WW range when he was in his prime or smaller than GSP. Sak was listed at 183 for most of his prime years. Even when he was fat and old, he still had a MW frame at best and he never cut weight anyhow.

BJ fought at MW and Machida at HW (though he didnt actually weigh over 205) and also has huge wins at WW, doesnt change the fact that he is still a LW.

There was always talk of how small Fedor was at HW and that was part of his greatness as a HW. CC was also a small HW. Both of those guys could have likely made 205. Is this also a "slur" against those guys beause we're talking their actual weight range?

Dan has and still can make 185. When he fights at LHW, he is still a MW fighting at LHW, he is smaller than all of his LHW opponents. He weighed in at 207 for his fight with Fedor when most LHWs are around 220 for LHW bouts. Everyone knows this and think by pointing out actual numerical facts, its a "slur" or you're considered a Dana/Zuffa troll.

To deny that Dan is a MW is more of the nut-huggin vein than being a troll of any other.

- Still a huge Fedor fan

Dan fights FAR BETTER at LHW than he ever did @ MW...Dan was the Pride 205lb champ and has more than held his own against LHW's . He is a small LHW @ 207lbs, not a huge HW cutting down to 205lbs....but that still makes him a LHW. No one ever said a LHW HAD TO BE a huge 225lb HW cutting down. 207 puts bhim right there, especially if he performs better than at MW
5/12/13 12:07 PM
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bhealthy
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39 by whatever he wants. he was just way too smart for hendo, like Hampage, Silva, and Machida
5/12/13 12:08 PM
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bhealthy
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^^^^^and of course, the Legend
5/12/13 2:22 PM
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Wasa-B
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SKARHEAD - 
Wasa-B - 
Smith1234 - Just because a fighter fights above his weight class, that does not make him that higher weightclass. Even if said fighter gains weight to qualify for the weightclass.

For example Sak is a MW, not a LHW, no matter how much he fought at 205. Phone Post 3.0

Sak was actually about today's WW range when he was in his prime or smaller than GSP. Sak was listed at 183 for most of his prime years. Even when he was fat and old, he still had a MW frame at best and he never cut weight anyhow.

BJ fought at MW and Machida at HW (though he didnt actually weigh over 205) and also has huge wins at WW, doesnt change the fact that he is still a LW.

There was always talk of how small Fedor was at HW and that was part of his greatness as a HW. CC was also a small HW. Both of those guys could have likely made 205. Is this also a "slur" against those guys beause we're talking their actual weight range?

Dan has and still can make 185. When he fights at LHW, he is still a MW fighting at LHW, he is smaller than all of his LHW opponents. He weighed in at 207 for his fight with Fedor when most LHWs are around 220 for LHW bouts. Everyone knows this and think by pointing out actual numerical facts, its a "slur" or you're considered a Dana/Zuffa troll.

To deny that Dan is a MW is more of the nut-huggin vein than being a troll of any other.

- Still a huge Fedor fan

Dan fights FAR BETTER at LHW than he ever did @ MW...Dan was the Pride 205lb champ and has more than held his own against LHW's . He is a small LHW @ 207lbs, not a huge HW cutting down to 205lbs....but that still makes him a LHW. No one ever said a LHW HAD TO BE a huge 225lb HW cutting down. 207 puts bhim right there, especially if he performs better than at MW

Yes, I realize that he has fought better at LHW however you guys are simply not getting the point that that does not change what Dan actually weighs, ie. what size/weight he actually is.

And no, being at 207 for his Fedor/HW fight does not make him a LHW. 207 is still MW range and you guys all know this. The 207 Dan that showed up for Fedor can still make 185.

The funny thing is that I mentioned originally that Dan is "technically" a MW meaning that is his actual size and weight and have never denied that he fights better at LHW and that there was but 17lbs between him and Fedor which doesnt make it necessarily a "MW vs HW" bout and that anyone who's been on this board knows im a hardcore Fedor fan, just ask Orcus but the moment i reiterate a numerical fact about Dan's weight, apparently im a Dana mouthpiece. Not saying you're saying that but all this aside, Dan is still a MW because that is his size.

Anderson and most other MW can also weigh in at over 205lbs on any given day, so that makes them not MWs then too?
5/12/13 2:27 PM
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Immaculata
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Hendo would beat Saku.
5/12/13 2:34 PM
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Wasa-B
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Btw, just for arguement's or "blow by blow" sake, and though i dont necessarily have a problem with Dan being consdidered at better fighter at LHW, if you look at his notable wins and losses at both MW and LHW, i dont think his LHW resume stands heads and tails above his MW one.

Wins @ HW:
Fedor
Babalu
Nog (almost universally regarded as a bs decision)
Yvel

Losses @ HW:
Nog (submission)

Wins @ LHW:
Shogun (debatable decision)
Feijao
Babalu
Wand II (for Pride "MW" belt)
Vitor
Nakamura (injury TKO)
Ninja (debatable decision)
Goes (debatable decision)

Losses @ LHW:
Machida
Rampage (to unify Pride, UFC belts @ 205)
Lil Nog (submission)
Arona
Wand I

Wins @ MW:
Bisping
Franklin (debatable decision)
Palhares
Misaki
Busta II (debatable decision, for Pride "WW" belt)
Kondo (debatable decision)
Busta I (though imo the clash of heads but Busta out, still a TKO in any case)
Renzo (not sure what Renzo weighed at this point but im sure both him and Hendo were under 183lbs)
Newton (debatable decision, this was in UFC's "MW" or 200lb class at the time but both him and Newton were still MW size range, Newton would later fight WW of course)

Losses @ MW:
Shields
Anderson (submission, to unify Pride, UFC belts at 185)
Misaki
5/12/13 2:43 PM
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Wasa-B
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For the record on my pick for this, I think it could have gone either way.
5/12/13 4:05 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Wasa-B - Btw, just for arguement's or "blow by blow" sake, and though i dont necessarily have a problem with Dan being consdidered at better fighter at LHW, if you look at his notable wins and losses at both MW and LHW, i dont think his LHW resume stands heads and tails above his MW one.

Wins @ HW:
Fedor
Babalu
Nog (almost universally regarded as a bs decision)
Yvel

Losses @ HW:
Nog (submission)

Wins @ LHW:
Shogun (debatable decision)
Feijao
Babalu
Wand II (for Pride "MW" belt)
Vitor
Nakamura (injury TKO)
Ninja (debatable decision)
Goes (debatable decision)

Losses @ LHW:
Machida
Rampage (to unify Pride, UFC belts @ 205)
Lil Nog (submission)
Arona
Wand I

Wins @ MW:
Bisping
Franklin (debatable decision)
Palhares
Misaki
Busta II (debatable decision, for Pride "WW" belt)
Kondo (debatable decision)
Busta I (though imo the clash of heads but Busta out, still a TKO in any case)
Renzo (not sure what Renzo weighed at this point but im sure both him and Hendo were under 183lbs)
Newton (debatable decision, this was in UFC's "MW" or 200lb class at the time but both him and Newton were still MW size range, Newton would later fight WW of course)

Losses @ MW:
Shields
Anderson (submission, to unify Pride, UFC belts at 185)
Misaki


First of all your list is fucked! Why post crap? Never mind!

HW - Not quite, figure it TF out

MW - Hendo is 6-3, figure out which fights they were. Stop posting crap (maybe that means STFU)

Hint: yes UFC 17 MW was under 200 IBS but Hendo fought as a LHW (modern weight classes, well over 185 (3)) not MW (as did Goes who for some reason you put at LHW correctly LMFAO. Newton too was a LHW). Ace fight was at LHW too.

Hendo lost his last fight before AS at MW BTW to the Hitman.

Below is a blow for blow break down of one fight just so you can grasp WTF it even means.

"Franklin- Rd. 1 was easy Hendo. Rd.2- With Ace slightly ahead midway threw the RD, Hendo got a TD and did more than enough to win the rd. (GnP). No one even claimed a 10-8 in rd.3"

Hendo won't even fight at MW any more because he said he's "weaker".
5/12/13 4:11 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Opps there is MORE BS in your post too! LMFAO

Hint: Hendo never fought below 195 when he was not forced to cut.
5/12/13 4:20 PM
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bhealthy
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Immaculata - Hendo would beat Saku.

not likely if shields could manhandle him. saku was not manhandled on the ground by rampage or wand, both of them outwrestled TRT dan
5/12/13 4:24 PM
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Immaculata
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bhealthy - 
Immaculata - Hendo would beat Saku.

not likely if shields could manhandle him. saku was not manhandled on the ground by rampage or wand, both of them outwrestled TRT dan

Dan got tired nearly beating Jake to death in the 1st rnd.
5/12/13 4:26 PM
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Lazer MMA
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bhealthy - 
Immaculata - Hendo would beat Saku.

not likely if shields could manhandle him. saku was not manhandled on the ground by rampage or wand, both of them outwrestled TRT dan


Page had no real advantage in that fight in wrestling. Dan had TD'd and top control for good periods of time too. Yea if Dan had to cut I's take Sak too though. OP does not say @ 83 though.
5/12/13 4:34 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Immaculata - 
bhealthy - 
Immaculata - Hendo would beat Saku.

not likely if shields could manhandle him. saku was not manhandled on the ground by rampage or wand, both of them outwrestled TRT dan

Dan got tired nearly beating Jake to death in the 1st rnd.


Ah in fairness even just before the fight even the announcers themselves talked about Hendo's back (injury), moreover he was forced into a real tough cut in the fight due to a medication.

Jake fought a great fight, and Hendo but a shadow of himself at MW in fairness too.

Sak VS Hendo with no weight cut a different fight (tough one), but Sak no lock
5/12/13 6:19 PM
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Wasa-B
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Immaculata - 
bhealthy - 
Immaculata - Hendo would beat Saku.

not likely if shields could manhandle him. saku was not manhandled on the ground by rampage or wand, both of them outwrestled TRT dan

Dan got tired nearly beating Jake to death in the 1st rnd.

Dan imo was clearly not himself that night. No way he consistently gives up the td that easily all night.
5/12/13 6:32 PM
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Wasa-B
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Lazer MMA - 
Wasa-B - Btw, just for arguement's or "blow by blow" sake, and though i dont necessarily have a problem with Dan being consdidered at better fighter at LHW, if you look at his notable wins and losses at both MW and LHW, i dont think his LHW resume stands heads and tails above his MW one.

Wins @ HW:
Fedor
Babalu
Nog (almost universally regarded as a bs decision)
Yvel

Losses @ HW:
Nog (submission)

Wins @ LHW:
Shogun (debatable decision)
Feijao
Babalu
Wand II (for Pride "MW" belt)
Vitor
Nakamura (injury TKO)
Ninja (debatable decision)
Goes (debatable decision)

Losses @ LHW:
Machida
Rampage (to unify Pride, UFC belts @ 205)
Lil Nog (submission)
Arona
Wand I

Wins @ MW:
Bisping
Franklin (debatable decision)
Palhares
Misaki
Busta II (debatable decision, for Pride "WW" belt)
Kondo (debatable decision)
Busta I (though imo the clash of heads but Busta out, still a TKO in any case)
Renzo (not sure what Renzo weighed at this point but im sure both him and Hendo were under 183lbs)
Newton (debatable decision, this was in UFC's "MW" or 200lb class at the time but both him and Newton were still MW size range, Newton would later fight WW of course)

Losses @ MW:
Shields
Anderson (submission, to unify Pride, UFC belts at 185)
Misaki


First of all your list is fucked! Why post crap? Never mind!

HW - Not quite, figure it TF out

MW - Hendo is 6-3, figure out which fights they were. Stop posting crap (maybe that means STFU)

Hint: yes UFC 17 MW was under 200 IBS but Hendo fought as a LHW (modern weight classes, well over 185 (3)) not MW (as did Goes who for some reason you put at LHW correctly LMFAO. Newton too was a LHW). Ace fight was at LHW too.

Hendo lost his last fight before AS at MW BTW to the Hitman.

Below is a blow for blow break down of one fight just so you can grasp WTF it even means.

"Franklin- Rd. 1 was easy Hendo. Rd.2- With Ace slightly ahead midway threw the RD, Hendo got a TD and did more than enough to win the rd. (GnP). No one even claimed a 10-8 in rd.3"

Hendo won't even fight at MW any more because he said he's "weaker".

Well, well, well, look who's back...again?

"Happy posting goodbye" anyone? That being the 2nd time I was told I was gonna be ignored and left for good. Kinda like the domestic abuse victim that says she's gonna leave her man for good this time but keeps coming back for more punishment.

K, first, i stand corrected on the Franklin fight, yay for you. Thanks again for your awesome blow by blow. Either way, i do remember enough debate after that fight and it was in fact a very close bout from what i recall myself. And even if the fight was at LHW, Franklin only went there after having no where to go at MW. He isnt a true LHW either. And iirc, he was still bigger than Dan.

"(as did Goes who for some reason you put at LHW correctly LMFAO. Newton too was a LHW)"

I put Goes at LHW because Goes was a true LHW. Not Newton. He was like Frank Sham and Zinoviev and Sak, MWs fighting at "MW" of the 200lbs division when the next drop was 170. Newton must have later fought at WW because he's really a LHW right? And then when he was older and a bit bigger, he still fought at 183 in Pride at his heaviest. He was around the same size as Sak when they fought too early in Pride.

"Hendo lost his last fight before AS at MW BTW to the Hitman"

That must probably be why that loss is included in the below:

"Losses @ MW:
Shields
Anderson (submission, to unify Pride, UFC belts at 185)
Misaki"

Awaiting yet another emotional exclamation marks, being told im never gonna be responsed to again only to be responded to again. Just cant stay away, can ya?
5/12/13 6:37 PM
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Wasa-B
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And lol at Hendo being 6-3 at MW:

Renzo
Kondo
Chonan
Gono
Busta I
Misaki
Misaki II
Anderson
Palhares
Bisping
Shields

That's 11 fights and not even including the Newton fight in a 200lb div when the next class down was 170. And Oyama was probably around 200lbs natural weight, def a MW frame.
5/12/13 7:04 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Wasa-B - And lol at Hendo being 6-3 at MW:

Renzo
Kondo
Chonan
Gono
Busta I
Misaki
Misaki II
Anderson
Palhares
Bisping
Shields

That's 11 fights and not even including the Newton fight in a 200lb div when the next class down was 170. And Oyama was probably around 200lbs natural weight, def a MW frame.


6-3 is fuckin spot on!

Again Hendo was 195 or greater vs Renzo & Kondo.

WTF cares where Newton went, he was heaver than Hendo in that fight who came in at 195. You correctly put Babalu at HW in 1 fight. WTF did he go after the fight with his weight? Why not put him @ LHW in the 1st fight? Because he was NOT a LHW at the time of the fight!

Bunch of bull crap talking out of your ass as usual, will you fuckin stop? Hendo fights at 83 (85) = ONLY

Chonan
Gono
Busta I
Misaki
Misaki II
Anderson
Palhares
Bisping
Shields

PERIOD

He's a damn shadow of himself after any cut. He has admitted he's weaker after any cut (finally) and he will not fight at MW any more (save AS). A smart enough person would know exactly why too. Hint: so many years of weight cutting and wrestling.
5/12/13 7:06 PM
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Lazer MMA
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oops it was Busta 2, you were wrong about that too
5/12/13 7:21 PM
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Wasa-B
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Yeah, missed that in the 2nd list, had both Busta fights in my original lists.

Babalu went from HW to LHW. Newton did not go from LHW to WW. 195 is closer to MW range than LHW range anyhow. Not that im gonna fight tooth and nail about that but Newton was never a true LHW and everyone knows it.

And even if you move a few fights from MW to LHW in his resume, I still wouldnt consider Dan a "shadow of himself" at MW compared to LHW.

Btw, what happened to you ignoring me again?
5/12/13 7:31 PM
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Lazer MMA
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It does not fuckin matter where Babalu went! You put him at HW because he was over 230 in the 1st fight correctly.

It does not matter where Newton went! He fought heavier than Hendo who was 195 at the time.

It's not "even if you move" crap! Hendo 6-3 at MW period and yes even per himself (and resume with really no great wins at MW) he's but a shadow of himself ("weaker", and will not fight there).

Stop at least posting BS about his damn exact record at various weights and u have deal. You've been wrong every fuckin time.
5/12/13 7:38 PM
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I AM A MOFO
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SKARHEAD - 
IsmokeCrack - Pride and prime Hendo KTFO Saku.

Hendo took the belt from Wand. Phone Post 3.0

Hendo also took the belt from Vanderlei IMMEDIETLY following his horrific KO at the Hands of Cro Cop...Vanderlei was already broken, not to mention he was VISIBLY sick going into the fight w/ Dan. In their 1st match where Vanderlei was younger and both were healthy Dan lost.

Yep, was gonna point out that Wand had strep throat and a fever of 102 during the fight. Was sitting backstage hooked to an IV prior.

In the fight before that, Hendo didn't even want to get off his back (since that's where every exchange left him anyways), resulting in 70% of the fight playing out with Hendo lying there while Wand kicked his legs ala Vitor x Sakuraba.


For a little perspective for you new guys, people were pissed when they announced the Hendo Wand rematch for Pride 33. We/they all said Wand was being given another gimme/"can", from a lower weight class whom he had already dominated to get him over in America. HENDO was called a CAN when it came to Pride Wandy.




That said, when Sakuraba was to fight Wand the first time he was a heavy favorite. It's hard to say who would've won but I lean Saku and if you had asked this at THAT point in time, anyone who disagreed would likely be mocked. I feel like a lot of people are basing their picks on what has happened SINCE then?
5/12/13 7:54 PM
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sparkuri
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Dan is a fighter. Not Specifically a light heavyweight or middle weight or heavy weight. He said before he feels better at light heavyweight.
All that aside, I can see these guys splitting their fights. It's a great match up. Masaki beat Dan, some say twice, as did arguably Newton, who lost to Sak.
It woulda been a great fight, maybe even trilogy;) Phone Post

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