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UnderGround Forums >> Pride Hendo vs Prime Saku


5/12/13 7:58 PM
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FingerorMoon
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ALL HENDO IS PRIME HENDO
5/12/13 8:09 PM
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CharlesLewis
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Tough call, could go either way. Dec by Sak or KO by Dan.

5/12/13 8:15 PM
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orcus
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Saku probably would have won, he was showing better wrestling in MMA than Dan was and was obviously a far superior grappler. Better cardio, better grappling, better takedowns at the time imo.

And however Wand looked after the first fight with Dan, he beat the hell out of Dan in that fight.

5/12/13 8:26 PM
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orcus
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"Also regarding Franklin, if he cannot make 185 anymore, then he is no longer a MW. But is it confirmed that he can no longer make the weight or was he fighting at catch weights or LHW because he had no where left to go at MW?"

His last fight was at 185 against Cung Le.

"Dan fights FAR BETTER at LHW than he ever did @ MW...Dan was the Pride 205lb champ "

He was also the Pride 185lb champ. Other than Wand coming off the Crocop KO, which Pride 205ers did Dan beat? Arona no, Ninja yes but highly controversial, Kondo (himself more of a 185er) yes but highly controversial, Rogerio no...let's face it, he had no definitive wins over anyone at 205 in Pride other than Wand in that rematch and Vitor (who wasn't even part of Pride's 205 division). 

In his whole career, Dan's only non-controversial wins over notable 205ers are Wand in the rematch, Vitor, and Feijao.

5/12/13 8:41 PM
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kingkoopa
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orcus -

"Also regarding Franklin, if he cannot make 185 anymore, then he is no longer a MW. But is it confirmed that he can no longer make the weight or was he fighting at catch weights or LHW because he had no where left to go at MW?"

His last fight was at 185 against Cung Le.

"Dan fights FAR BETTER at LHW than he ever did @ MW...Dan was the Pride 205lb champ "

He was also the Pride 185lb champ. Other than Wand coming off the Crocop KO, which Pride 205ers did Dan beat? Arona no, Ninja yes but highly controversial, Kondo (himself more of a 185er) yes but highly controversial, Rogerio no...let's face it, he had no definitive wins over anyone at 205 in Pride other than Wand in that rematch and Vitor (who wasn't even part of Pride's 205 division). 

In his whole career, Dan's only non-controversial wins over notable 205ers are Wand in the rematch, Vitor, and Feijao.

Never thought about it but its true

The contoversial decisions in Dans career are imo his fights with ninja, newton, goes, kondo, misaki 1, busta 2 and if i recall correctly shoji.

Decision Dan for sure has a padded record with the controversial decisions. Also Pride Dan is def different than Prime Dan, which is why i asked about PRIDE Dan...

Imo dan vs saku in pride is a dream match that necer happened. Cant really choose a winner

PS:
Many people might not know but dan fought frank shamrock in a grappling only match and got worked. I believe it was right before he went to pride Phone Post
5/12/13 9:16 PM
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Wasa-B
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Lazer MMA - 
It does not fuckin matter where Babalu went! You put him at HW because he was over 230 in the 1st fight correctly.

It does not matter where Newton went! He fought heavier than Hendo who was 195 at the time.

It's not "even if you move" crap! Hendo 6-3 at MW period and yes even per himself (and resume with really no great wins at MW) he's but a shadow of himself ("weaker", and will not fight there).

Stop at least posting BS about his damn exact record at various weights and u have deal. You've been wrong every fuckin time.

Newton weighed in at over 195 against Hendo? Again, even if he weighed 200lbs, again, like Frank Shank, Zinoviev, Sakuraba and Henderson, those guys were all fighting at "MW/LHW" at the time because there was no 185/MW div. They were not real LHWs.

And, holy exclamation bombs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What happened to that whole inhale/breathe thing?

And....again, what happened to you ignoring me? Remember? You said it twice.
5/12/13 9:24 PM
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Wasa-B
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sparkuri -  Dan is a fighter. Not Specifically a light heavyweight or middle weight or heavy weight. He said before he feels better at light heavyweight.
All that aside, I can see these guys splitting their fights. It's a great match up. Masaki beat Dan, some say twice, as did arguably Newton, who lost to Sak.
It woulda been a great fight, maybe even trilogy;) Phone Post

Misaki is a far diff fighter than Sak though, a tricky counter puncher. Newton and Sak basically put on a one of the most exciting subgrappling matches in MMA, Hendo never fought like that. All diff stylistic matchups there.

I think fights like Ninja and Arona point to how well Sak could do though both guys were bigger, Ninja was hardly known as a top notch wrestler where Arona was. Also iirc, both Ninja and Arona got Dan down in the clinch most of the time. Im quite sure Sak could get Dan down off his singles as Dan overextended himself on the attack but cant recall if Sak had man clinch tds in his career.
5/12/13 9:34 PM
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Wasa-B
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kingkoopa - 
orcus -

"Also regarding Franklin, if he cannot make 185 anymore, then he is no longer a MW. But is it confirmed that he can no longer make the weight or was he fighting at catch weights or LHW because he had no where left to go at MW?"

His last fight was at 185 against Cung Le.

"Dan fights FAR BETTER at LHW than he ever did @ MW...Dan was the Pride 205lb champ "

He was also the Pride 185lb champ. Other than Wand coming off the Crocop KO, which Pride 205ers did Dan beat? Arona no, Ninja yes but highly controversial, Kondo (himself more of a 185er) yes but highly controversial, Rogerio no...let's face it, he had no definitive wins over anyone at 205 in Pride other than Wand in that rematch and Vitor (who wasn't even part of Pride's 205 division). 

In his whole career, Dan's only non-controversial wins over notable 205ers are Wand in the rematch, Vitor, and Feijao.

Never thought about it but its true

The contoversial decisions in Dans career are imo his fights with ninja, newton, goes, kondo, misaki 1, busta 2 and if i recall correctly shoji.

Decision Dan for sure has a padded record with the controversial decisions. Also Pride Dan is def different than Prime Dan, which is why i asked about PRIDE Dan...

Imo dan vs saku in pride is a dream match that necer happened. Cant really choose a winner

PS:
Many people might not know but dan fought frank shamrock in a grappling only match and got worked. I believe it was right before he went to pride Phone Post

Dan TKOd Shoji without controvery. Dan's grappling match with Frank was in Contenders and was prior to the UFC iirc when Dan had little submission training. Dan's sub defense by the time he was in Pride was already top notch, look at how long it took Big Nog to tap him. Busta had him on the ground in their rematch and couldnt do much. Rog tapped him but Dan was pretty beat up standing first just like he was vs Andy. I dont think Dan got into much sub trouble on grappling alone save for the Big Nog fight which of coure doesnt really count.

I dont think Arona had back mount on him, one of the few times?
5/12/13 9:37 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Hendo dominated the first 8 minutes of the fight with Newton forcing him to the ground and issuing GNP before he made a rookie mistake and stood up.

Hendo beat the Hitman squarely in the 1st fight, there was little debate (uneventful fight in all).

Arona won that fight squarely but Hendo had TD's and top control for periods too.

Likewise with Ninja Hendo also had Td's and top control and caused the only damage in the fight. Ninja newver close to finishing the fight (PRIDe rules).
5/12/13 9:39 PM
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Lazer MMA
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LOL at discrediting any win without even being willing to debate WTF happened exactingly in the fights.
5/12/13 9:44 PM
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Wasa-B
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orcus - 

"Also regarding Franklin, if he cannot make 185 anymore, then he is no longer a MW. But is it confirmed that he can no longer make the weight or was he fighting at catch weights or LHW because he had no where left to go at MW?"

His last fight was at 185 against Cung Le.

"Dan fights FAR BETTER at LHW than he ever did @ MW...Dan was the Pride 205lb champ "

He was also the Pride 185lb champ. Other than Wand coming off the Crocop KO, which Pride 205ers did Dan beat? Arona no, Ninja yes but highly controversial, Kondo (himself more of a 185er) yes but highly controversial, Rogerio no...let's face it, he had no definitive wins over anyone at 205 in Pride other than Wand in that rematch and Vitor (who wasn't even part of Pride's 205 division). 

In his whole career, Dan's only non-controversial wins over notable 205ers are Wand in the rematch, Vitor, and Feijao.


Yup, i think its pretty clear when you look at my list of wins and losses at LHW and MW, Dan's def had a storied career period but i dont think his LHW career stands heads and shoulders about his MW career. No probs with saying he's better there as his recent resurgence is there (LHW) and above with Fedor but i dont think its that night and day. Certainly Dan's not a "shadow of himself" at MW as has been said by another.
5/12/13 9:45 PM
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Wasa-B
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Lazer MMA - 
Hendo dominated the first 8 minutes of the fight with Newton forcing him to the ground and issuing GNP before he made a rookie mistake and stood up.

Hendo beat the Hitman squarely in the 1st fight, there was little debate (uneventful fight in all).

Arona won that fight squarely but Hendo had TD's and top control for periods too.

Likewise with Ninja Hendo also had Td's and top control and caused the only damage in the fight. Ninja newver close to finishing the fight (PRIDe rules).

LOL at Hendo having tds and top control on Ninja, he had like 1 or 2 tds at most where Ninja quickly got out of them all. He spent the majority of the fight on his back. So much for "debate WTF happened exactingly in the fights."
5/12/13 9:46 PM
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Lazer MMA
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orcus - 

"Also regarding Franklin, if he cannot make 185 anymore, then he is no longer a MW. But is it confirmed that he can no longer make the weight or was he fighting at catch weights or LHW because he had no where left to go at MW?"

His last fight was at 185 against Cung Le.

"Dan fights FAR BETTER at LHW than he ever did @ MW...Dan was the Pride 205lb champ "

He was also the Pride 185lb champ. Other than Wand coming off the Crocop KO, which Pride 205ers did Dan beat? Arona no, Ninja yes but highly controversial, Kondo (himself more of a 185er) yes but highly controversial, Rogerio no...let's face it, he had no definitive wins over anyone at 205 in Pride other than Wand in that rematch and Vitor (who wasn't even part of Pride's 205 division). 

In his whole career, Dan's only non-controversial wins over notable 205ers are Wand in the rematch, Vitor, and Feijao.




Yes let first forget about Hendo fighting as a LHW VS HW's, and his record VS HW's to start with. That's logical especially as your Hero (bigger than Hendo) has challenged the best at LHW and HW when they were the best. LMFAO

Hendo did fight in some very close fights with some fighters (with weight on too) most were much bigger than him and most decisions (though the fights were close) if not all were just.
5/12/13 10:06 PM
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Wasa-B
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Lazer MMA - 
LOL at discrediting any win without even being willing to debate WTF happened exactingly in the fights.

Btw, Lazer, all the blow by blowing in the world doesnt matter, there was tons of debate after each of those fights considered controversial decisions in Dan's career. It doesnt mean Dan lost for sure. It just means many people thought he was lucky to win or thought he lost. Just because you thought Dan won without question doesnt change the fact that a great number of fans thought and still think he didnt.
5/12/13 10:14 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Wasa-B - 
Lazer MMA - 
Hendo dominated the first 8 minutes of the fight with Newton forcing him to the ground and issuing GNP before he made a rookie mistake and stood up.

Hendo beat the Hitman squarely in the 1st fight, there was little debate (uneventful fight in all).

Arona won that fight squarely but Hendo had TD's and top control for periods too.

Likewise with Ninja Hendo also had Td's and top control and caused the only damage in the fight. Ninja newver close to finishing the fight (PRIDe rules).

LOL at Hendo having tds and top control on Ninja, he had like 1 or 2 tds at most where Ninja quickly got out of them all. He spent the majority of the fight on his back. So much for "debate WTF happened exactingly in the fights."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aD6as4_l7U

Wow he said a single point about the most fuckin unimportant part of the post in a single fight and that's his argument, AND it case closed LMFAO. Of course he's as wrong and ignorant as he was about Hendo's record (which I proved was an unimpressive 6-3) surprise surprise.

This is only half the fuckin fight. "caused the only damage in the fight. Ninja never close to finishing the fight (PRIDe rules)." Review 8:15 to 8:45 of the tape. That's were under PRIDe rules he won the fight. He caused the only major damage right there in the fight and was closest to finishing the fight (Hendo never in danger).

Then review 4:30, 4:38, 7:15 & 10:05 of the tape. I think you'll find more than 2 TD's in just this half of the fight.
Tome to quit. Please!
5/12/13 10:20 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Wasa-B - 
Lazer MMA - 
LOL at discrediting any win without even being willing to debate WTF happened exactingly in the fights.

Btw, Lazer, all the blow by blowing in the world doesnt matter, there was tons of debate after each of those fights considered controversial decisions in Dan's career. It doesnt mean Dan lost for sure. It just means many people thought he was lucky to win or thought he lost. Just because you thought Dan won without question doesnt change the fact that a great number of fans thought and still think he didnt.


It does not mean we can't review the rules and what happened in the fights.

I gave a very brief blow for bow breakdown to the fight with Ace. Not even CRE challenged it. If you can't challenge it (try to poke a hole in it) you need to STFU IMO. If you try to poke a hole in it a debate can start. It does not matter what people said. Even today fans are on all sides of close fights. As an example I hold with Junkie as far as scoring the last Bendo fight exactingly. There is no reason this can not be debated if one knows WTF happened in the fights. If one can not debate (at least try to poke a hole in an argument), one should STFU IMO.
5/12/13 11:31 PM
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Wasa-B
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Lazer MMA - 
Wasa-B - 
Lazer MMA - 
Hendo dominated the first 8 minutes of the fight with Newton forcing him to the ground and issuing GNP before he made a rookie mistake and stood up.

Hendo beat the Hitman squarely in the 1st fight, there was little debate (uneventful fight in all).

Arona won that fight squarely but Hendo had TD's and top control for periods too.

Likewise with Ninja Hendo also had Td's and top control and caused the only damage in the fight. Ninja newver close to finishing the fight (PRIDe rules).

LOL at Hendo having tds and top control on Ninja, he had like 1 or 2 tds at most where Ninja quickly got out of them all. He spent the majority of the fight on his back. So much for "debate WTF happened exactingly in the fights."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aD6as4_l7U

Wow he said a single point about the most fuckin unimportant part of the post in a single fight and that's his argument, AND it case closed LMFAO. Of course he's as wrong and ignorant as he was about Hendo's record (which I proved was an unimpressive 6-3) surprise surprise.

This is only half the fuckin fight. "caused the only damage in the fight. Ninja never close to finishing the fight (PRIDe rules)." Review 8:15 to 8:45 of the tape. That's were under PRIDe rules he won the fight. He caused the only major damage right there in the fight and was closest to finishing the fight (Hendo never in danger).

Then review 4:30, 4:38, 7:15 & 10:05 of the tape. I think you'll find more than 2 TD's in just this half of the fight.
Tome to quit. Please!

It doesnt change the fact that Dan spent the majority or more time on his back than Ninja did.Yes, Dan nearly finished the fight at the end (i never denied he did, i was just correcting you on implying Dan outwrestled and had more top time on Ninja, from what i recall Ninja got out quickly from Dan's tds where Dan didnt) which was his only real highlight of the fight and yes, I remember Pride's criteria which is likely why he got the nod vs Busta in the rematch too however, he was controlled for the majority of both the Ninja and Busta bouts.

I also never said Dan clearly lost either those bouts but they were still debatable decisions, which is the point, not whether you think he won or lost.
5/12/13 11:35 PM
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Wasa-B
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Lazer MMA - 
Wasa-B - 
Lazer MMA - 
LOL at discrediting any win without even being willing to debate WTF happened exactingly in the fights.

Btw, Lazer, all the blow by blowing in the world doesnt matter, there was tons of debate after each of those fights considered controversial decisions in Dan's career. It doesnt mean Dan lost for sure. It just means many people thought he was lucky to win or thought he lost. Just because you thought Dan won without question doesnt change the fact that a great number of fans thought and still think he didnt.


It does not mean we can't review the rules and what happened in the fights.

I gave a very brief blow for bow breakdown to the fight with Ace. Not even CRE challenged it. If you can't challenge it (try to poke a hole in it) you need to STFU IMO. If you try to poke a hole in it a debate can start. It does not matter what people said. Even today fans are on all sides of close fights. As an example I hold with Junkie as far as scoring the last Bendo fight exactingly. There is no reason this can not be debated if one knows WTF happened in the fights. If one can not debate (at least try to poke a hole in an argument), one should STFU IMO.

Blow by blow!

Blow by blow!

Blow by blow!

Hey guys, did you know Lazer gave a blow by blow breakdown?

You're still missing the whole point: I dont care who you think won and am not attempting to debate the outcomes with you, i never said Dan didnt deserve to win them, i am only reiterating that he's had a laundry list of debatable decisions. Ok, im taking a page from you and cap locking that shit: Dan has a laundry list of DEBATABLE DECISIONS that went his way and nothing you try and do now changes the fact that there was tons of DEBATE after each of those bouts i mentioned.

That you think Dan won and will debate it tooth and nail is fine but it doesnt change the fact that there was tons of DEBATE from a large amount of people on here which means they were not clear victories for him. One opinion to the contrary doesnt change that.
5/12/13 11:39 PM
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Wasa-B
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Btw, Lazer, did you ever do a blow by blow breakdown of any fight?
5/13/13 12:01 AM
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Jons Forsberg
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what is the argument about again? both sides are right, Ninja had most of the positional control but Hendo won in PRIDE's scoring system: more damage inflicted, finished the fight stronger, and was closer to finishing the fight than Ninja ever was. No blow by blow breakdown needed.
5/13/13 12:05 AM
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Jons Forsberg
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" That you think Dan won and will debate it tooth and nail is fine but it doesnt change the fact that there was tons of DEBATE from a large amount of people on here which means they were not clear victories for him. One opinion to the contrary doesnt change that."

IMO Ninja was the least controversial of all Dan's JD wins. The controversy was started by people who didn't understand Pride's scoring system to begin with.
5/13/13 1:57 AM
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Wasa-B
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Edited: 05/13/13 1:57 AM
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Jons Forsberg - " That you think Dan won and will debate it tooth and nail is fine but it doesnt change the fact that there was tons of DEBATE from a large amount of people on here which means they were not clear victories for him. One opinion to the contrary doesnt change that."

IMO Ninja was the least controversial of all Dan's JD wins. The controversy was started by people who didn't understand Pride's scoring system to begin with.

I understand the criteria just fine and thought Dan was lucky or that he eeked it out at best. Also, as far as finishing the fight stronger, even after Dan's flurry, Ninja got yet another td iirc.
5/13/13 2:50 AM
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Jacob Lamb
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Dan Henderson signed a contract to fight Sakuraba at Pride 11.

I don't know what happened, but Sakuraba ended up fighting Shannon Ritch.
5/13/13 4:13 AM
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Bucephalus
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Those who question the Nog/Hendo RINGS decision are obviously clueless about the judging criteria. And just because most people are clueless about it doesn't mean they are correct. It means that most people are clueless.

RINGS officials clearly stated that larger fighters would be handicapped in points in the event of a decision to compensate for the size difference. Nog knew it and Dan knew it.
5/13/13 5:55 AM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/13/13 5:59 AM
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Jons Forsberg - what is the argument about again? both sides are right, Ninja had most of the positional control but Hendo won in PRIDE's scoring system: more damage inflicted, finished the fight stronger, and was closer to finishing the fight than Ninja ever was. No blow by blow breakdown needed.

 

Pride had no criteria about finishing the fight stronger, and in fact in his explanation of their rules, Matt Hume specifically said on more than one occasion that the end of the fight counted no more than the beginning of the fight -- the fight was judged as a whole.

 

I never found that convincing, as they *clearly* gave wins to guys based on finishing stronger. Dan/Ninja and Dan/Busta II would *never* have been decided as they were if Dan scored his knockdowns at the beginning of the fight and then spent the rest of the fight being taken down and controlled, rather than the reverse.

And the point stands, that Dan actually has very very few definitive, decisive, non-controversial victories over notable 205ers. Wand rematch, Vitor, and Feijao is about it. And where were Vitor and Feijao even ranked at the time?

As I've also patiently tried to explain to Lazer hundreds of times, the TYPE of fighter has shown far more impact on how good Dan "looks" at either weight than the fact that in one division he is 202 on fight night with no cut while in the other he is 202 on fight night after rehydrating. Guys who fight technically and/or opt for a takedown/control strategy have generally beaten him or made him look less impressive at both weights. Guys that  get sucked into brawling have generally made him look good at both weights. 


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