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UnderGround Forums >> Pride Hendo vs Prime Saku


5/13/13 4:13 AM
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Bucephalus
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Those who question the Nog/Hendo RINGS decision are obviously clueless about the judging criteria. And just because most people are clueless about it doesn't mean they are correct. It means that most people are clueless.

RINGS officials clearly stated that larger fighters would be handicapped in points in the event of a decision to compensate for the size difference. Nog knew it and Dan knew it.
5/13/13 5:55 AM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/13/13 5:59 AM
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Jons Forsberg - what is the argument about again? both sides are right, Ninja had most of the positional control but Hendo won in PRIDE's scoring system: more damage inflicted, finished the fight stronger, and was closer to finishing the fight than Ninja ever was. No blow by blow breakdown needed.

 

Pride had no criteria about finishing the fight stronger, and in fact in his explanation of their rules, Matt Hume specifically said on more than one occasion that the end of the fight counted no more than the beginning of the fight -- the fight was judged as a whole.

 

I never found that convincing, as they *clearly* gave wins to guys based on finishing stronger. Dan/Ninja and Dan/Busta II would *never* have been decided as they were if Dan scored his knockdowns at the beginning of the fight and then spent the rest of the fight being taken down and controlled, rather than the reverse.

And the point stands, that Dan actually has very very few definitive, decisive, non-controversial victories over notable 205ers. Wand rematch, Vitor, and Feijao is about it. And where were Vitor and Feijao even ranked at the time?

As I've also patiently tried to explain to Lazer hundreds of times, the TYPE of fighter has shown far more impact on how good Dan "looks" at either weight than the fact that in one division he is 202 on fight night with no cut while in the other he is 202 on fight night after rehydrating. Guys who fight technically and/or opt for a takedown/control strategy have generally beaten him or made him look less impressive at both weights. Guys that  get sucked into brawling have generally made him look good at both weights. 

5/13/13 7:11 AM
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Lazer MMA
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Bucephalus - Those who question the Nog/Hendo RINGS decision are obviously clueless about the judging criteria. And just because most people are clueless about it doesn't mean they are correct. It means that most people are clueless.

RINGS officials clearly stated that larger fighters would be handicapped in points in the event of a decision to compensate for the size difference. Nog knew it and Dan knew it.


Exactly! Yet the fool Wasa-B (and his friendly sidekick troll Dorcus) refuses to talk about the rules and what happened in the fight exactingly. He just likes to refer to it as a "BS decision".

Clueless
5/13/13 7:17 AM
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Lazer MMA
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Wasa-B - 
Jons Forsberg - " That you think Dan won and will debate it tooth and nail is fine but it doesnt change the fact that there was tons of DEBATE from a large amount of people on here which means they were not clear victories for him. One opinion to the contrary doesnt change that."

IMO Ninja was the least controversial of all Dan's JD wins. The controversy was started by people who didn't understand Pride's scoring system to begin with.

I understand the criteria just fine and thought Dan was lucky or that he eeked it out at best. Also, as far as finishing the fight stronger, even after Dan's flurry, Ninja got yet another td iirc.


If you understand then it's time to stop trolling. I gave you the exact points in the fight that Hendo caused the ONLY damage (in the entire fight) and was closest to finishing (by far) as Hendo was never in danger (nor took any real GNP).

It's a matter of just understand the rules.

What "luck" was there in causing the ONLY damage (in the entire fight) and being closest to finishing (by far) exactingly? WTF was the "luck" exactly?
5/13/13 7:25 AM
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Lazer MMA
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Jons Forsberg - what is the argument about again? both sides are right, Ninja had most of the positional control but Hendo won in PRIDE's scoring system: more damage inflicted, finished the fight stronger, and was closer to finishing the fight than Ninja ever was. No blow by blow breakdown needed.


I pointed out the exact time the fight was won and supplied a source video to prove the point. I'm tired of several of these Hendo wins being discredited by clueless MMA fans and board trolls.

Plus I refuted the assertion of "two TD's" and gave several exact points and when they actually happened (there were more too).

Just because you have a clue does not mean others do. The shit is annoying.

Yet the trolls says "it does not matter" (why the fight was won), only that people though the decision was wrong. Problem is they are as clueless as Wasa-B and Dorcus!
5/13/13 8:46 AM
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Kneeblock
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This is another fight that I never understood why it didn't happen but for the fact that Pride likely knew there was no way for Sak to win.

When the 183 lb. Division was created, Sak should have jumped into that tournament, but his relationship with Pride was already souring and he seemed to have no interest in dieting. I think the rumors of Sak truly being a natural 170 pounder are all apocryphal. He was about the same size as Dan and they should have fought. Phone Post
5/13/13 9:25 AM
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Lazer MMA
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orcus - 
Jons Forsberg - what is the argument about again? both sides are right, Ninja had most of the positional control but Hendo won in PRIDE's scoring system: more damage inflicted, finished the fight stronger, and was closer to finishing the fight than Ninja ever was. No blow by blow breakdown needed.

 

Pride had no criteria about finishing the fight stronger, and in fact in his explanation of their rules, Matt Hume specifically said on more than one occasion that the end of the fight counted no more than the beginning of the fight -- the fight was judged as a whole.

 

I never found that convincing, as they *clearly* gave wins to guys based on finishing stronger. Dan/Ninja and Dan/Busta II would *never* have been decided as they were if Dan scored his knockdowns at the beginning of the fight and then spent the rest of the fight being taken down and controlled, rather than the reverse.

And the point stands, that Dan actually has very very few definitive, decisive, non-controversial victories over notable 205ers. Wand rematch, Vitor, and Feijao is about it. And where were Vitor and Feijao even ranked at the time?

As I've also patiently tried to explain to Lazer hundreds of times, the TYPE of fighter has shown far more impact on how good Dan "looks" at either weight than the fact that in one division he is 202 on fight night with no cut while in the other he is 202 on fight night after rehydrating. Guys who fight technically and/or opt for a takedown/control strategy have generally beaten him or made him look less impressive at both weights. Guys that  get sucked into brawling have generally made him look good at both weights. 



That's because you are ignoring the fuckin real rules. "Hendo won in PRIDE's scoring system: more damage inflicted" (per the poster). In fact he was also the only fighter 'close(est) to finishing the fight' as well. Those are the two top criteria used to decide a winner under PRIDe scoring. You were just as ignorant of Rings scoring as pointed out. You are discrediting legit wins under the rules fought under (my guess is because you are a troll) and calling them controversial because you are clueless as others are.

As far as the rest of your BS not only are you ignoring the rules but failing to realize Hendo has NO great win at all @ 85 (83), is 6-3 there, refuses to fight at that weight because he is "weaker". Fighters fought as they always did VS Hendo. He did improve his striking as time went on. As an example, in the first minute VS Shogun, Shogun was hit hard with a straight right because he tried to connect with a lead upper cut (this happened a few times). It was Hendo who was more technical and Shogun always presses forward.

5/13/13 1:35 PM
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Wasa-B
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Lazer MMA - 
Wasa-B - 
Jons Forsberg - " That you think Dan won and will debate it tooth and nail is fine but it doesnt change the fact that there was tons of DEBATE from a large amount of people on here which means they were not clear victories for him. One opinion to the contrary doesnt change that."

IMO Ninja was the least controversial of all Dan's JD wins. The controversy was started by people who didn't understand Pride's scoring system to begin with.

I understand the criteria just fine and thought Dan was lucky or that he eeked it out at best. Also, as far as finishing the fight stronger, even after Dan's flurry, Ninja got yet another td iirc.


If you understand then it's time to stop trolling. I gave you the exact points in the fight that Hendo caused the ONLY damage (in the entire fight) and was closest to finishing (by far) as Hendo was never in danger (nor took any real GNP).

It's a matter of just understand the rules.

What "luck" was there in causing the ONLY damage (in the entire fight) and being closest to finishing (by far) exactingly? WTF was the "luck" exactly?

Your still getting emotional even though ive acknowledged you described. Again, im not saying Dan didnt win the fight, however i would still not consider that a clear decision win for Dan and neither did many others. You keep running back to the judging criteria but its still up to the judges to digest everything on a whole even though Dan had the only real moment of the fight of damage, it was a very short sequence - does that override everything else in the fight? Yes, i know Ninja did little with this tds but still was in control of the majority of the fight.

Again, i dont necessarily have any problems with the outcome, i was going for Dan that night and it was awesome when he nearly finished it but i still felt it wasnt a very strong decision. You do, thats absoulutely fine but you are in denial about what a large chunk of others thought about it.
5/13/13 1:38 PM
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Wasa-B
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Edited: 05/13/13 1:43 PM
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Kneeblock - 

This is another fight that I never understood why it didn't happen but for the fact that Pride likely knew there was no way for Sak to win.

When the 183 lb. Division was created, Sak should have jumped into that tournament, but his relationship with Pride was already souring and he seemed to have no interest in dieting. I think the rumors of Sak truly being a natural 170 pounder are all apocryphal. He was about the same size as Dan and they should have fought. Phone Post





Yeah, its def a suprise it never happened, however why would they shield Sak from Dan when they he faced to Wand, CC, Rampage, Mezger, Igor (though GP matchup), Arona, etc?

As far as Sak being able to make 170 as "apocryphal," he was listed as 183lbs during his prime years. That is smaller than the WWs of today. He also weighed in 176 iirc for his fight with Royce. Look at him vs Newton and tell me he was bigger than him.
5/13/13 1:53 PM
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Wasa-B
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Bucephalus - Those who question the Nog/Hendo RINGS decision are obviously clueless about the judging criteria. And just because most people are clueless about it doesn't mean they are correct. It means that most people are clueless.

RINGS officials clearly stated that larger fighters would be handicapped in points in the event of a decision to compensate for the size difference. Nog knew it and Dan knew it.

The problem with quoting the criteria is that it seems to imply that its possible have some sort of quantitative certainty just because a criteria is written down on paper and that the judges can scientifically translate that to each fight. We've seen people try to argue the same with UFC or unified criteria as well. The bottom line is that there is still much subjective interpretation happening.

So that said, are we saying that Hendo, based on this said criteria, clearly and without question slam dunked the decision vs Nog? And how much of a lead does the size disadvantage cover? When Nog was 10% ahead? 25%? Ive read the Rings criteria used to justify Fedor's win over Arona and again, i dont necessarily have any huge problem with it (Fedor did have more GNP and more sub attempts iirc) but it still wasnt a very solid win for Fedor imo. And then over to Pride, the draw for Sak and Mezger for example. Most people consider that a BS decision and I dont have a problem with that because it was very close and an arguement for Mezger winning is completely fair. Though I believe Pride also had the 10kg rule in effect (as it was for the Vitor/Herring decision) but how much does that 10kg weight disadvantage cover? Its not quantifiable. It still has to be inserted subjectively.

So the question remains: How much was Nog "handicapped in points" to justify an indisputable decision for Henderson?
5/13/13 2:02 PM
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Wasa-B
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Lazer MMA - 
orcus - 
Jons Forsberg - what is the argument about again? both sides are right, Ninja had most of the positional control but Hendo won in PRIDE's scoring system: more damage inflicted, finished the fight stronger, and was closer to finishing the fight than Ninja ever was. No blow by blow breakdown needed.

 

Pride had no criteria about finishing the fight stronger, and in fact in his explanation of their rules, Matt Hume specifically said on more than one occasion that the end of the fight counted no more than the beginning of the fight -- the fight was judged as a whole.

 

I never found that convincing, as they *clearly* gave wins to guys based on finishing stronger. Dan/Ninja and Dan/Busta II would *never* have been decided as they were if Dan scored his knockdowns at the beginning of the fight and then spent the rest of the fight being taken down and controlled, rather than the reverse.

And the point stands, that Dan actually has very very few definitive, decisive, non-controversial victories over notable 205ers. Wand rematch, Vitor, and Feijao is about it. And where were Vitor and Feijao even ranked at the time?

As I've also patiently tried to explain to Lazer hundreds of times, the TYPE of fighter has shown far more impact on how good Dan "looks" at either weight than the fact that in one division he is 202 on fight night with no cut while in the other he is 202 on fight night after rehydrating. Guys who fight technically and/or opt for a takedown/control strategy have generally beaten him or made him look less impressive at both weights. Guys that  get sucked into brawling have generally made him look good at both weights. 



That's because you are ignoring the fuckin real rules. "Hendo won in PRIDE's scoring system: more damage inflicted" (per the poster). In fact he was also the only fighter 'close(est) to finishing the fight' as well. Those are the two top criteria used to decide a winner under PRIDe scoring. You were just as ignorant of Rings scoring as pointed out. You are discrediting legit wins under the rules fought under (my guess is because you are a troll) and calling them controversial because you are clueless as others are.

As far as the rest of your BS not only are you ignoring the rules but failing to realize Hendo has NO great win at all @ 85 (83), is 6-3 there, refuses to fight at that weight because he is "weaker". Fighters fought as they always did VS Hendo. He did improve his striking as time went on. As an example, in the first minute VS Shogun, Shogun was hit hard with a straight right because he tried to connect with a lead upper cut (this happened a few times). It was Hendo who was more technical and Shogun always presses forward.


Hendo def improved his striking as the years have gone on and i believe he is at his prime now (or perhaps after his loss to Shields, and yes at LHW fights). However, ironic that hanging on to this notion that he's had "NO great win at all at 83/85 then give the Shogun fight as an exmaple of a great win at LHW when thats yet another debatable decision in Dan's laundry list of debatable decisions.

Now, im gonna wait for you to deny there was any debate about that decision, that anyone who thought it was bs is clueless and how the criteria slam dunks the decision.

Go...
5/13/13 2:05 PM
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Wasa-B
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And while we're talking about ignoring certain things:

For the 9th time, what happened to you ignoring me again?

And Orcus seems to have put a good point forth about not necessarily the weight of the opponent but the of the opponent being a larger factor in determining his success. No comment on that?

Much like you keep on running back to the fact that Jones has not fought at HW so its a crime to think he would beat Fedor when its the stylistic matchup between Fedor and Jones that is more important than how Jones would do vs the rest of the HW div but you run away from that stylistic breakdown between then 2.

"As I've also patiently tried to explain to Lazer hundreds of times, the TYPE of fighter has shown far more impact on how good Dan "looks" at either weight than the fact that in one division he is 202 on fight night with no cut while in the other he is 202 on fight night after rehydrating. Guys who fight technically and/or opt for a takedown/control strategy have generally beaten him or made him look less impressive at both weights. Guys that get sucked into brawling have generally made him look good at both weights."
5/13/13 2:10 PM
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Wasa-B
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And to reiterate another point - that I have no problem with the notion that Dan is better at LHW than MW, i still dont think his LHW career stands heads and tails over his MW one. As Orcus points out, Dan's non-controversial big wins at LHW are the Wand rematch, Vitor and Feijao though if we include the wins at HW (Fedor, Nog and i still dont count the Nog win as a non-controversial win, sorry) it adds to the "heavier than MW wins" column. But again, he fought a sick and just KTFO Wand and Vitor and Feijao werent necessarily ranked very highly at the time Dan beat them.
5/13/13 2:59 PM
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SKARHEAD
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Wasa-B - 
Kneeblock - 

This is another fight that I never understood why it didn't happen but for the fact that Pride likely knew there was no way for Sak to win.

When the 183 lb. Division was created, Sak should have jumped into that tournament, but his relationship with Pride was already souring and he seemed to have no interest in dieting. I think the rumors of Sak truly being a natural 170 pounder are all apocryphal. He was about the same size as Dan and they should have fought. Phone Post





Yeah, its def a suprise it never happened, however why would they shield Sak from Dan when they he faced to Wand, CC, Rampage, Mezger, Igor (though GP matchup), Arona, etc?

As far as Sak being able to make 170 as "apocryphal," he was listed as 183lbs during his prime years. That is smaller than the WWs of today. He also weighed in 176 iirc for his fight with Royce. Look at him vs Newton and tell me he was bigger than him.

He was. Saku is bigger than he looks on screen. He's 6ft tall....has weighed as much as 200lbs...and has grappled with and controlled HUGE STRONG guys on the ground ( Quinton, Vitor, Conan, Moti, Igor, Cro Cop, etc).


He's no small elf.
5/13/13 3:19 PM
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Kneeblock
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Wasa-B -
Kneeblock - 

This is another fight that I never understood why it didn't happen but for the fact that Pride likely knew there was no way for Sak to win.

When the 183 lb. Division was created, Sak should have jumped into that tournament, but his relationship with Pride was already souring and he seemed to have no interest in dieting. I think the rumors of Sak truly being a natural 170 pounder are all apocryphal. He was about the same size as Dan and they should have fought. Phone Post





Yeah, its def a suprise it never happened, however why would they shield Sak from Dan when they he faced to Wand, CC, Rampage, Mezger, Igor (though GP matchup), Arona, etc?

As far as Sak being able to make 170 as "apocryphal," he was listed as 183lbs during his prime years. That is smaller than the WWs of today. He also weighed in 176 iirc for his fight with Royce. Look at him vs Newton and tell me he was bigger than him.
The reason he'd be shielded imo is because by the time Dan was even really in the conversation Sak was showing signs of decline. He had no choice with the Mezger fight since it was part of a random draw.

Honestly I think it was an easy to lose fight to a hard to market fighter so it was best avoided. Everyone else had a solid enough rep in Japan.

As for Sak's weight it's the most manipulated number in MMA history besides Rickson's win loss record. Newton was around 185 when they fought and was noticeably smaller by my recollection. I'd love to see just one photo of a scale with Sak standing on it during the Pride days. Phone Post
5/13/13 4:59 PM
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Wasa-B
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You really comparing this to Rickson's record? lol....didnt think anything was on that level. I thought Sak looked very close in size to Newton as well as Royce, Renzo and Ryan who were all around the 180 mark approx iirc. I thought Sak looked slimmer for the Royce fight and he was listed at 176 compared to his usu 183.

Do you think he was in the 190-200 mark in his early and prime Pride days? He was def not as big as Andy, Okami, Chael, the MWs of today.
5/13/13 5:00 PM
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Wasa-B
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Edited: 05/13/13 5:00 PM
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Not the best pic but they look nearly identicle there imo. As far as Rickson's record......or was it Sperry's record?



Highlights, though they are the ground most of the time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnEFL0dt73g
5/13/13 5:06 PM
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Wasa-B
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another match clip: http://www.56.com/u80/v_MjI5NDk4NTM.html
5/13/13 5:49 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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orcus - 
Jons Forsberg - what is the argument about again? both sides are right, Ninja had most of the positional control but Hendo won in PRIDE's scoring system: more damage inflicted, finished the fight stronger, and was closer to finishing the fight than Ninja ever was. No blow by blow breakdown needed.

 

Pride had no criteria about finishing the fight stronger, and in fact in his explanation of their rules, Matt Hume specifically said on more than one occasion that the end of the fight counted no more than the beginning of the fight -- the fight was judged as a whole.

 

I never found that convincing, as they *clearly* gave wins to guys based on finishing stronger. Dan/Ninja and Dan/Busta II would *never* have been decided as they were if Dan scored his knockdowns at the beginning of the fight and then spent the rest of the fight being taken down and controlled, rather than the reverse.

And the point stands, that Dan actually has very very few definitive, decisive, non-controversial victories over notable 205ers. Wand rematch, Vitor, and Feijao is about it. And where were Vitor and Feijao even ranked at the time?

As I've also patiently tried to explain to Lazer hundreds of times, the TYPE of fighter has shown far more impact on how good Dan "looks" at either weight than the fact that in one division he is 202 on fight night with no cut while in the other he is 202 on fight night after rehydrating. Guys who fight technically and/or opt for a takedown/control strategy have generally beaten him or made him look less impressive at both weights. Guys that  get sucked into brawling have generally made him look good at both weights. 


based on the criteria below I still think Hendo won that fight.



" Decision

If the match goes the distance, then the outcome of the bout is determined by the three judges. A decision is made according to the following: the effort made to finish the fight via KO or submission, damage given to the opponent, standing combinations & ground control, aggressiveness and weight (in the case that the weight difference is 10kg/22lbs or more). The above criteria are listed according to priority. The fight is scored in its entirety and not round by round. After the third round, each judge must decide a winner. Matches cannot end in a draw."

http://www.pridefc.com/pride2005/whats_rules.htm

5/13/13 5:52 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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Wasa-B - 
Jons Forsberg - " That you think Dan won and will debate it tooth and nail is fine but it doesnt change the fact that there was tons of DEBATE from a large amount of people on here which means they were not clear victories for him. One opinion to the contrary doesnt change that."

IMO Ninja was the least controversial of all Dan's JD wins. The controversy was started by people who didn't understand Pride's scoring system to begin with.

I understand the criteria just fine and thought Dan was lucky or that he eeked it out at best. Also, as far as finishing the fight stronger, even after Dan's flurry, Ninja got yet another td iirc.

Wasa check the paragraph that I quoted above, do you still think it's controversial? The most important criteria are effort to finish the fight and damage inflicted in that order and I think there's no question that Hendo won the 2 most important criteria.
5/13/13 5:56 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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1) "Effort to Finish the fight" - Hendo
2) "damage given to the opponent" - Hendo
3) "standing combinations" - Even
4) "ground control" - Ninja
5) "aggressiveness" - Even
6) "Weight" - Even (difference within 22lbs)


Overall: Clearly Hendo.
5/13/13 6:05 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Kneeblock - 
Wasa-B -
Kneeblock - 

This is another fight that I never understood why it didn't happen but for the fact that Pride likely knew there was no way for Sak to win.

When the 183 lb. Division was created, Sak should have jumped into that tournament, but his relationship with Pride was already souring and he seemed to have no interest in dieting. I think the rumors of Sak truly being a natural 170 pounder are all apocryphal. He was about the same size as Dan and they should have fought. Phone Post





Yeah, its def a suprise it never happened, however why would they shield Sak from Dan when they he faced to Wand, CC, Rampage, Mezger, Igor (though GP matchup), Arona, etc?

As far as Sak being able to make 170 as "apocryphal," he was listed as 183lbs during his prime years. That is smaller than the WWs of today. He also weighed in 176 iirc for his fight with Royce. Look at him vs Newton and tell me he was bigger than him.
The reason he'd be shielded imo is because by the time Dan was even really in the conversation Sak was showing signs of decline. He had no choice with the Mezger fight since it was part of a random draw.

Honestly I think it was an easy to lose fight to a hard to market fighter so it was best avoided. Everyone else had a solid enough rep in Japan.

As for Sak's weight it's the most manipulated number in MMA history besides Rickson's win loss record. Newton was around 185 when they fought and was noticeably smaller by my recollection. I'd love to see just one photo of a scale with Sak standing on it during the Pride days. Phone Post


Per PRIDe announcer (not saying true BTW), Newton was 169 in that fight with Sak. What weights are we told Sak fought at in other fights?

5/13/13 6:26 PM
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Lazer MMA
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Wasa-B - 
Lazer MMA - 
Wasa-B - 
Jons Forsberg - " That you think Dan won and will debate it tooth and nail is fine but it doesnt change the fact that there was tons of DEBATE from a large amount of people on here which means they were not clear victories for him. One opinion to the contrary doesnt change that."

IMO Ninja was the least controversial of all Dan's JD wins. The controversy was started by people who didn't understand Pride's scoring system to begin with.

I understand the criteria just fine and thought Dan was lucky or that he eeked it out at best. Also, as far as finishing the fight stronger, even after Dan's flurry, Ninja got yet another td iirc.


If you understand then it's time to stop trolling. I gave you the exact points in the fight that Hendo caused the ONLY damage (in the entire fight) and was closest to finishing (by far) as Hendo was never in danger (nor took any real GNP).

It's a matter of just understand the rules.

What "luck" was there in causing the ONLY damage (in the entire fight) and being closest to finishing (by far) exactingly? WTF was the "luck" exactly?

Your still getting emotional even though ive acknowledged you described. Again, im not saying Dan didnt win the fight, however i would still not consider that a clear decision win for Dan and neither did many others. You keep running back to the judging criteria but its still up to the judges to digest everything on a whole even though Dan had the only real moment of the fight of damage, it was a very short sequence - does that override everything else in the fight? Yes, i know Ninja did little with this tds but still was in control of the majority of the fight.

Again, i dont necessarily have any problems with the outcome, i was going for Dan that night and it was awesome when he nearly finished it but i still felt it wasnt a very strong decision. You do, thats absoulutely fine but you are in denial about what a large chunk of others thought about it.


No I know this has been beaten to death and overall posters (MMA fans) have said it was a BS decision. I feel under the rules the fight was close but Dan won. I acknowledged lots of close fights I just don't like that sooooo many posters call it a BS decision (like other of his fights) when they were not. They were close decisions but not at all unreasonable.

As far as the rebuttal to O's quote you supplied I answered it directly and you responded to that post yourself above.

In so far as calling the Shogun decision controversial, it's not a win lose question even, only a win draw question. The judges explained exactly why RD.5 was not a 10-8 (there was not enough 'damage' done to merit the 10-8). Overall Hendo did much more damage.


5/13/13 7:00 PM
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orcus
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Jons Forsberg - 1) "Effort to Finish the fight" - Hendo
2) "damage given to the opponent" - Hendo
3) "standing combinations" - Even
4) "ground control" - Ninja
5) "aggressiveness" - Even
6) "Weight" - Even (difference within 22lbs)


Overall: Clearly Hendo.

I'd have to watch again. I think the point stands that whether Dan deserved the win under those criteria or not, it was not by any means an impressive showing for him or a truly decisive victory. 

I was always a little skeptical of the argument that those top 2 criteria override everything else no matter what the ratio is of those two to the other criteria. Minowa in the rematch put on a shameful display of lay and pray against Baroni for 14 minutes and in the final minute Baroni was stomping and soccer kicking the shit out of him, but still lost. Crocop clearly did more damage to Fedor than vice versa and had the lone submission attempt, but he lost a unanimous decision that no one argues with. 

5/13/13 8:18 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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they clearly leave that up to the judges discretion since no weight is given to any criteria, and the ratios or margin by what a fighter wins each criteria are also largely subjective.

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