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UnderGround Forums >> Rebney fires back at Alvarez


5/11/13 5:05 PM
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Thacommish
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liquidrob - They only said what card he was going to be on after the contract drama just to spice it up

He wasn't guaranteed anything, like others have said, lol @ them throwing Eddie on there biggest draws card, zuffa loves giving out even more ppv money! He would have gotten the Lombard treatment if anything, or maybe worse, nothing said guaranteed ppv slot in thr original offer, I'm surprised guys are still not trying to pass off the guaranteed title shot like when first reported and later confirmed wrong


No, just like how wsof got to make a second offer to tyson nam, the ufc did the same with eddie where they clarified this, i posted the details a few pages ago. The spot on the PPV was most certainly GUARANTEED. the only thing that wasnt back then was the amount of buys it would generate, but now that it already happened and already generated buys, it has an actual value to it.

I'd love to see a source where his spot on a GSP card was 'guaranteed.'  Why on earth would Dana pay unranked Alvarez 15-20 times more than any other LW?

I have a feeling it was a negotiating tactic and there was never even a consideration to put him on that card.  They would do the same with him as they did with Lombard.  Give him a PPV percentage but then keep him off paying PPV's until he can prove he is a draw. 


No one said gsp card, but he had a spot guaranteed please view the source above they detail the "loophole" 12 to 6 has been blabbering about for 2 days now

Clearly you haven't even read this thread is you're saying "no one" has brought up the GSP card and said that he lost out on a $1.5M to $2M payday.


By no one i mean anyone with half a brain like me, now please can you hold me to what i actually say instead of what uneducated people are saying?
5/11/13 5:06 PM
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liquidrob
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And for the record, I have always said Bellator should have just let Eddie go, he already lost to the champ, doesn't want to do the tournament anymore so they should have just let him go
5/11/13 5:06 PM
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fryingarmbar
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So what do ppl contend is the reason for the different treatment Alvarez is getting compared to Lombard, whom they basically let go and wished well?

If it's purely the Viacom thing, that makes no sense to me b/c it suggests that prior to getting on Spike, Bellator had no interest in protecting their assets. This seems more personal and I could see how Alvarez telling Bjorn "show me the money" on TV, one fight after getting TKOed left a bad taste in Rebney's mouth. Phone Post 3.0
5/11/13 5:07 PM
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Thacommish
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So basically, Bellator matched everything but the "intended" PPV dollars.

 

Why isn't he taking the 70 to show, 70 to win, and 250K bonus and fighting for Bellator?

Seems like good fucking money


because hes stuck on the hypothetical dream of being on a gsp card and making milllions...too bad the ufc didnt guarantee him that- then bellator couldnt match...


Except he was gonna be on the GSP/Diaz card, when they couldnt do that they gave him the 159 slot.

either way he would have made between 500k for 159 and 1.6 million for the GSP card.

So he was gonna make good money, money he wouldnt see on a Bellator PPV.


Why didn't they gaurentee him PPV slots? Because they had no intention of putting him on PPV's.

Thats why.

 


In addition, Zuffa currently has a standing offer to Alvarez for a bout at UFC 159 in late April, but has altered its original contract offer to include the pay-per-view revenue perk (in addition to the negotiated $75,000 show and $75, 000 win purses), despite it not being a title fight. According to Alvarez's UFC offer, included in Bellator's complaint, the fighter stands to make an additional $1.00 for every buy between 200,000-400,000 units, $2.00 for each buy sold between 400,000- 600,000 units and $2.50 for each buy sold over 600,000 units. However, Zuffa contends it must have Alvarez's unfettered commitment by Jan. 27 to get the full 90 days it says it needs to properly promote the bout.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mma/news/20130120/eddie-alvarez-counterclaim-against-bellator/#ixzz2T1GJfB2h
i posted it once for you but you conveniently ignored it then posted dated offers from the first contract.

I didn't conveniently ignore anything, I'm here to discuss things and learn and hear other peoples opinions, I don't do this for a living, if you posted it I didn't notice, half the time I'm on my phone, calm down.

 

"Zuffa currently has a standing offer to Alvarez for a bout at UFC 159"

Doesn't sound like a gaurentee.

I (and anyone with a brain) would have to see a copy of the contract to really know, don't you think?

"standing offer" isn't a term I understand as far as contracts and legality are concerned, my knowledge of law is definitely very small, but terms like "standing offer" and "Intends to" don't sound like gaurentees.

 


Standing offer is, intends is not. lol.
5/11/13 5:09 PM
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liquidrob
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fryingarmbar - So what do ppl contend is the reason for the different treatment Alvarez is getting compared to Lombard, whom they basically let go and wished well?

If it's purely the Viacom thing, that makes no sense to me b/c it suggests that prior to getting on Spike, Bellator had no interest in protecting their assets. This seems more personal and I could see how Alvarez telling Bjorn "show me the money" on TV, one fight after getting TKOed left a bad taste in Rebney's mouth. Phone Post 3.0

I would have to check, but Eddie was offered 250k signing bonus, Lombard maybe 350k?

Eddie's per fight is like 75/75, Lombards was higher, so basically they offered Hector more guaranteed money
5/11/13 5:12 PM
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liquidrob
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Looks like Hector got 400k signing and 150/150, someone correct me if I'm wrong
5/11/13 5:12 PM
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12SixElbow
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Thacommish - Notice 12 to 6 your source is dated january 9th, and mine january 20th, get with the program, you are viewing dated material from the first offer

Perhaps.

Did you read your article? I see the "standing offer" terminology,

But THEN a judge looked at the information and decided it wasn't clear enough and needed to go further to trial, correct? So.... It isn't clear to me, it isn't clear to a judge, but its clear to you?

 

"The UFC intended to give us a title fight, meant for it to be pay-per-view. The first fight, that would be on the Jon Jones card, it would not be a title fight, but it's still a big pay-per-view, so they're doing the best they can with the timing."

 

 

5/11/13 5:15 PM
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Thacommish
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liquidrob - And thats why it didn't count, let me ask you again, why didn't they offer more money?


actual money wasnt the issue, ufc was offering something that bellator could in no way match but the judge did not view that as the case.

Of course this comes down to money.  Tell me this.  If the UFC was expecting to pay Eddie a $250K signing bonus, $75K to show, and $400K (conservative amount on a Jones card), why not just offer him a flat fee of $725K to show with a $75K win bonus?  That would be the exact same amount you all say he would be getting paid with the UFC's offer and would have guaranteed Bellator wouldn't have matched.

Answer:  Because they never had any intention of putting him on that card and paying him a PPV bonus off the popularity of Jon Jones and Chael Sonnen.


The ufc wanted to make a 2nd offer that bellator could not match, the best way they could figure to do this was by adding ppv incentives, bellator found a way around that. Sure they couldve just kept throwing larger offers at eddie, and bellator couldve just as easily matched it.
5/11/13 5:16 PM
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Thacommish
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Thacommish: 

Per your own article, they were "prepared" to offer him a bout on the GSP card.  Nothing was guaranteed.  Per that same article, there was a standing offer for him to compete on the Jones card, and the source for this was a letter written by Eddie.  I'd say a good source that he was GUARANTEED on a big card would be contract and per Bjorn, those are all publically available.  Somehow, I doubt this proof will ever be shown.

Zuffa's letter to Alvarez's attorneys clarifies that it had been prepared to offer Alvarez a bout (not specified as a title fight) at UFC 158: St. Pierre vs. Diaz on March 16 in Montreal, but it rescinded the offer due to promotional timing concerns.

 


Read the next sentence you dolt

" Zuffa's letter to Alvarez's attorneys clarifies that it had been prepared to offer Alvarez a bout (not specified as a title fight) at UFC 158: St. Pierre vs. Diaz on March 16 in Montreal, but it rescinded the offer due to promotional timing concerns.

In addition, Zuffa currently has a standing offer to Alvarez for a bout at UFC 159 in late April, but has altered its original contract offer to include the pay-per-view revenue perk (in addition to the negotiated $75,000 show and $75, 000 win purses), despite it not being a title fight. According to Alvarez's UFC offer, included in Bellator's complaint, the fighter stands to make an additional $1.00 for every buy between 200,000-400,000 units, $2.00 for each buy sold between 400,000- 600,000 units and $2.50 for each buy sold over 600,000 units. However, Zuffa contends it must have Alvarez's unfettered commitment by Jan. 27 to get the full 90 days it says it needs to properly promote the bout."

Yes Corky, ACCORDING TO A LETTER FROM EDDIE, as I already made clear to you.  That's the source.  A letter from Eddie.  Do you believe everything you read on the internet?

"according to a Jan. 10 letter included in a counterclaim Alvarez filed this week in United States District Court."

 


as opposed to your source which is?
5/11/13 5:18 PM
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Thacommish
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Thacommish - Notice 12 to 6 your source is dated january 9th, and mine january 20th, get with the program, you are viewing dated material from the first offer

Perhaps.

Did you read your article? I see the "standing offer" terminology,

But THEN a judge looked at the information and decided it wasn't clear enough and needed to go further to trial, correct? So.... It isn't clear to me, it isn't clear to a judge, but its clear to you?

 

"The UFC intended to give us a title fight, meant for it to be pay-per-view. The first fight, that would be on the Jon Jones card, it would not be a title fight, but it's still a big pay-per-view, so they're doing the best they can with the timing."

 

 


The offer was clear though... the only thing that wasnt clear was bellators requirement to actually match the revisions zuffa made, they made the case they didnt.
5/11/13 5:19 PM
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12SixElbow
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fryingarmbar - So what do ppl contend is the reason for the different treatment Alvarez is getting compared to Lombard, whom they basically let go and wished well?

If it's purely the Viacom thing, that makes no sense to me b/c it suggests that prior to getting on Spike, Bellator had no interest in protecting their assets. This seems more personal and I could see how Alvarez telling Bjorn "show me the money" on TV, one fight after getting TKOed left a bad taste in Rebney's mouth. Phone Post 3.0

They didn't match the UFC's offer for Lombard.

 

5/11/13 5:21 PM
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12SixElbow
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Thacommish - Notice 12 to 6 your source is dated january 9th, and mine january 20th, get with the program, you are viewing dated material from the first offer

Perhaps.

Did you read your article? I see the "standing offer" terminology,

But THEN a judge looked at the information and decided it wasn't clear enough and needed to go further to trial, correct? So.... It isn't clear to me, it isn't clear to a judge, but its clear to you?

 

"The UFC intended to give us a title fight, meant for it to be pay-per-view. The first fight, that would be on the Jon Jones card, it would not be a title fight, but it's still a big pay-per-view, so they're doing the best they can with the timing."

 

 


The offer was clear though... the only thing that wasnt clear was bellators requirement to actually match the revisions zuffa made, they made the case they didnt.

It wasn't clear to me, it appears it wasn't clear to a judge.

IMO (and UG lawyers probably know?) since the ufc didn't gaurentee his fights be on PPV, then Bellator didn't have to gaurentee to match... At least that is how it would seem.

If the verbage was "intends to" and not, "will" or "gaurentee" that can make all the difference.

 

 

5/11/13 5:22 PM
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12SixElbow
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Does anyone know when the court date is for this? It's all very interesting.

 

5/11/13 5:22 PM
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Thacommish
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Thacommish - Notice 12 to 6 your source is dated january 9th, and mine january 20th, get with the program, you are viewing dated material from the first offer

Perhaps.

Did you read your article? I see the "standing offer" terminology,

But THEN a judge looked at the information and decided it wasn't clear enough and needed to go further to trial, correct? So.... It isn't clear to me, it isn't clear to a judge, but its clear to you?

 

"The UFC intended to give us a title fight, meant for it to be pay-per-view. The first fight, that would be on the Jon Jones card, it would not be a title fight, but it's still a big pay-per-view, so they're doing the best they can with the timing."

 

 


The offer was clear though... the only thing that wasnt clear was bellators requirement to actually match the revisions zuffa made, they made the case they didnt.

It wasn't clear to me, it appears it wasn't clear to a judge.

IMO (and UG lawyers probably know?) since the ufc didn't gaurentee his fights be on PPV, then Bellator didn't have to gaurentee to match... At least that is how it would seem.

If the verbage was "intends to" and not, "will" or "gaurentee" that can make all the difference.

 

 


The offer is very clear, the judge wasnt wrestling with the terms of intends to, and guarantee, they were busy arguing with bellator over what they are actually legally required to match.
5/11/13 5:22 PM
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liquidrob
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When this all started I basically said Eddie just got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time

Hector going first and he made out, the UFC was testing the waters with there offer and seeing where they can still get bellator guys and what was the lowest number, Eddie going second is the reason he got low balled, the offer from the UFC wasn't great in guaranteed money for a top free agent, but they didn't want to offer up "Hector Lombard Money" again

The next guy will get a better offer if this ppv money doesnt hold up in court, the UFC likes to do the game show thing, fight for bonus money and a new car behind door number 2, they dont want to keep giving out higher show money lke they did for ex Pride/SF and now Bellator guys, it gets all the UFC fighters wanting more, they would rather keep the show money low

5/11/13 5:25 PM
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Thacommish
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bellator matched the 2nd offer, the judge didnt throw it out, the question is does it really count as matching since they were allowed by the judge to basically disregard the offers regarding ppv because of an uncertain value.
5/11/13 5:30 PM
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12SixElbow
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Thacommish - 
12SixElbow - 
Thacommish - Notice 12 to 6 your source is dated january 9th, and mine january 20th, get with the program, you are viewing dated material from the first offer

Perhaps.

Did you read your article? I see the "standing offer" terminology,

But THEN a judge looked at the information and decided it wasn't clear enough and needed to go further to trial, correct? So.... It isn't clear to me, it isn't clear to a judge, but its clear to you?

 

"The UFC intended to give us a title fight, meant for it to be pay-per-view. The first fight, that would be on the Jon Jones card, it would not be a title fight, but it's still a big pay-per-view, so they're doing the best they can with the timing."

 

 


The offer was clear though... the only thing that wasnt clear was bellators requirement to actually match the revisions zuffa made, they made the case they didnt.

Very interesting.

 

I wonder how this all turns out? Does Bellator have to start putting on PPV's?

 

5/11/13 5:32 PM
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Chris27
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Thacommish: 

Per your own article, they were "prepared" to offer him a bout on the GSP card.  Nothing was guaranteed.  Per that same article, there was a standing offer for him to compete on the Jones card, and the source for this was a letter written by Eddie.  I'd say a good source that he was GUARANTEED on a big card would be contract and per Bjorn, those are all publically available.  Somehow, I doubt this proof will ever be shown.

Zuffa's letter to Alvarez's attorneys clarifies that it had been prepared to offer Alvarez a bout (not specified as a title fight) at UFC 158: St. Pierre vs. Diaz on March 16 in Montreal, but it rescinded the offer due to promotional timing concerns.

 


Nothing was guaranteed, dotn think any fighter has guaranteed PPV fights but their plan was to put him on one of those PPV.

Spin it any way you want the fact is Eddie will make more money in the UFC than he would in Bellator, that cant be argued.

They wanted him on that March card and then when they couldnt wait they wanted him on that Silva/Sonnen card.

Of course he wont be on PPV every fight or be on the biggest cards each fight, out of 8 fights he might fight on PPV 2-3 times but just being on two or three PPV will make him good money if the card is good.

5/11/13 5:35 PM
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Chris27
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fryingarmbar - So what do ppl contend is the reason for the different treatment Alvarez is getting compared to Lombard, whom they basically let go and wished well?

If it's purely the Viacom thing, that makes no sense to me b/c it suggests that prior to getting on Spike, Bellator had no interest in protecting their assets. This seems more personal and I could see how Alvarez telling Bjorn "show me the money" on TV, one fight after getting TKOed left a bad taste in Rebney's mouth. Phone Post 3.0

I think a few things played into that.

First Lombard got a much bigger offer, 400k signing bonus, 300k a fight, full UFC sponsorship which is adds money and PPV points.

Eddie got 250k bonus and 70/70. also factor in Lombard seems to be a far more difficult man to deal with while Bjorn/Eddie seemed to have a good relationship.

Plus they feel Eddie/Chandler would be a PPV fight while Lombard really had nothing in Bellators MW div other than a rematch with storm which wasnt a good fight the first time.

So Lombard gets a bigger offer, doesnt have much for him in the MW div and is a tough guy to deal with if he isnt happy, thats why they let him go.

5/11/13 5:37 PM
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liquidrob
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Unless I'm missing something, I don't like there was even a "second offer", none of the money was different, the ppv points were on thr original offer I believe, there wasn't really a second offer because there couldn't be one

That was just the UFC coming out after the fact saying he was going to be on this awesome ppv money making card that they knew he wouldn't be ready for
5/11/13 5:37 PM
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12SixElbow
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Yesterday Eddie posted this on twitter.

21h

You guys don't believe Me, watch HD net in 30 min and see the contract itself and the change of language , I got it right Here

 

DId he release the contract with the change of language?

 

5/11/13 5:37 PM
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Chris27
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liquidrob - When this all started I basically said Eddie just got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time

Hector going first and he made out, the UFC was testing the waters with there offer and seeing where they can still get bellator guys and what was the lowest number, Eddie going second is the reason he got low balled, the offer from the UFC wasn't great in guaranteed money for a top free agent, but they didn't want to offer up "Hector Lombard Money" again

The next guy will get a better offer if this ppv money doesnt hold up in court, the UFC likes to do the game show thing, fight for bonus money and a new car behind door number 2, they dont want to keep giving out higher show money lke they did for ex Pride/SF and now Bellator guys, it gets all the UFC fighters wanting more, they would rather keep the show money low


I dont think that offer is low balling him, its what they felt he was worth.

Remember Eddie was the champ, he is also a LW.

Higher div fighters get more money, Lombard was a MW, had 25 or something straight wins and was being brought in to fight Silva.

Had Eddie been Bellator LW champ when he was a free agent he would have gotten a higher offer.

5/11/13 5:38 PM
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Chris27
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liquidrob - Unless I'm missing something, I don't like there was even a "second offer", none of the money was different, the ppv points were on thr original offer I believe, there wasn't really a second offer because there couldn't be one

That was just the UFC coming out after the fact saying he was going to be on this awesome ppv money making card that they knew he wouldn't be ready for

YEah it wasnt really a second offer it was just an offer sheet to fight on a card to speed things up, they wanted him on that 159 card so Eddie got the court case because it needed to happen in a certain amount of time.

So it was just basically a fight offer to be on a card.
5/11/13 5:41 PM
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liquidrob
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Chris27 - 
liquidrob - Unless I'm missing something, I don't like there was even a "second offer", none of the money was different, the ppv points were on thr original offer I believe, there wasn't really a second offer because there couldn't be one

That was just the UFC coming out after the fact saying he was going to be on this awesome ppv money making card that they knew he wouldn't be ready for

YEah it wasnt really a second offer it was just an offer sheet to fight on a card to speed things up, they wanted him on that 159 card so Eddie got the court case because it needed to happen in a certain amount of time.

So it was just basically a fight offer to be on a card.

Yes, after Dana already said "This will be ugly" and long and drawn out or something along those lines, they knew he couldnt be on the card, it was just a way to make it worse on bellator in the public eye and it worked
5/11/13 5:47 PM
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fryingarmbar
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Thacommish -
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Thacommish - 
liquidrob - And thats why it didn't count, let me ask you again, why didn't they offer more money?


actual money wasnt the issue, ufc was offering something that bellator could in no way match but the judge did not view that as the case.

Of course this comes down to money.  Tell me this.  If the UFC was expecting to pay Eddie a $250K signing bonus, $75K to show, and $400K (conservative amount on a Jones card), why not just offer him a flat fee of $725K to show with a $75K win bonus?  That would be the exact same amount you all say he would be getting paid with the UFC's offer and would have guaranteed Bellator wouldn't have matched.

Answer:  Because they never had any intention of putting him on that card and paying him a PPV bonus off the popularity of Jon Jones and Chael Sonnen.


The ufc wanted to make a 2nd offer that bellator could not match, the best way they could figure to do this was by adding ppv incentives, bellator found a way around that. Sure they couldve just kept throwing larger offers at eddie, and bellator couldve just as easily matched it.
Why "just as easily?" They didn't match what UFC offered Lombard. Phone Post 3.0

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