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BJJGround Forum >> Gracies and the Birth of Vale Tudo


5/12/13 6:42 PM
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blanko
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Im wondering if anyone else saw the documentary. Lots of interesting footage and interviews there.
5/12/13 7:53 PM
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PrisonMattressPuncher
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Edited: 05/12/13 8:01 PM
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I literally just got off the couch from watching this DVD.

It was pretty good overall withsome good footage and old pictures that were nice to see.

Here's the problems I have with it:

1) It  just seems like a 'Gracie Barra' promo video rather than a scholarly treatise. They really downplay Rorion's involvement with spreading BJJ in North America and worldwide, more than any other Gracie. It's funny hearing someone like Ryan Gracie call Rorion a scumbag, when Ryan himself was a thug, bully criminal trash scumbag, who died in prison. I wonder why he was given interview space as he is probably the least relevant of the 'known' Gracies. It's sad that the opinion was used, when it seems a rather cheap attempt at 'controvery' in the documentary.

2) There were zero interviews with luminaries like Relson Gracie, who spread BJJ in Hawaii; Rillion Gracie; Reylson; Carslon Gracie Jr., etc. I wonder why a lot of the interviews were 'opinions' about other Gracies, mostly from Barra-friendly people, when it would have been better to interview the actual figures themselves, and at least give balanced perspectives from other participants. I think Rorion was treated unfairly, as he did bring over relatives and feed them, house them, give them work, etc. He started the UFC, etc.a now billion dollar enterpirse.  He was a smart businessman, and I think most are jealous of his success.

3) There were mistakes. I'm sorry, but the narrator was calling a few of them "R" as in Ralph, Ryan, rrrr....not "h" sound. There were also small errors, like saying Carlos died at age 92, when they document on the screen says 94. Weird.

4) There ws absolutely ZERO mention of ROGER Gracie. WTF? There was a small interview clipof Royler. Are you kidding me? In sport BJJ, Royler is the MOST successful Gracie ever (well, Roger might top him soon). He was undefeated in his weight class for 12 years. Not even a profile on him. No mention of Ralph Gracie, the second Gracie to fight in the U.S. ('Extreme Fighting', I think prior to Renzo, but perhaps he is 3rd to fight in U.S.). There was no mention of Ryron and Rener Gracie, and later Gracie achievements, etc. There was ZERO mention of the Machados who were early progenitors of BJJ in the U.S. and brought over by Rorion Gracie. Rigan? JJ Machado? Nothing. Rigan is in the old Gracie Academy photos. Why no interview with Rickson? Too little of the great Carlson., however, there was a profile. Almost no discussion of the early history of fights with George Gracie, etc. No mention of Rickson's DOMINANCE in sport BJJ. No mention of Rickson submitting every single last BJJ player he ever grappled in sport BJJ. Why not? Instead they jump right to Zulu and Japan Pride.

5) It should have been 2 to 3 hour documentary to be definitive and provide the variety of opinion.

6) I could barely get this to play. I still cannot access the extra features there is nothing to select on the menu, I cannot move around with my remote.

All in all, it was a fun watch, and I do not mind having purchased it, but let's be honest, this was a commercial most for Gracie Barra and it's also one-sided historical opinion. I wanted to throw my lemon-coconut Thai curry at the TV screen at the number of time Carlinhos appeared on-screen giving his "grand" opinion.  

DO NOT buy this if you want an accurate portrayl and history, and do not buy this if you are not a Gracie Barra fan. But do buy it if you want one more piece to the historical puzzle - buy it and enjoy it for what it is.

The definitive history has still yet to be filmed.

5/12/13 8:55 PM
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YPO
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What happened to the other thread?
5/12/13 8:57 PM
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YPO
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Also I think it was more about Vale Tudo than Sport BJJ.
5/12/13 9:07 PM
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PrisonMattressPuncher
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YPO - Also I think it was more about Vale Tudo than Sport BJJ.

Yes, it was. But it was about the Gracies and the development of BJJ. If it was about fighting, then why no Ralph Gracie? George Gracie? Gracie Academy Challenge matches? Rorion's Vale Tudo challenge fights in America? Rorion's Playboy challenge that started it in the U.S.? Sakuraba's dominance over Renzo, Ralph and Royler? Rodrigo Gracie's fights? Carlson Jr.'s fights?  Why include Helio's Kimura sport match? It was most propoganda for Gracie Barra opinions.

5/12/13 9:14 PM
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thebasher
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unfair to paint Ryan solely in those terms -
5/12/13 9:30 PM
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PrisonMattressPuncher
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Edited: 05/12/13 9:35 PM
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thebasher - unfair to paint Ryan solely in those terms -

 


True. But it is unfair to him to parrot secondhand information of an individual he did not really know and say it with such vehemence and profanity when he himself is no real saint in anyone's definition. Personally, i think it was the filmmaker's fault for simply recording anyone who would talk.

 

5/12/13 10:32 PM
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blanko
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Ryan did know know Rorion? Doubt it, but Ryan definately knew rickson at least from his PRIDE days.
5/12/13 10:52 PM
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PrisonMattressPuncher
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Edited: 05/12/13 11:11 PM
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Penetration Skills - 
PrisonMattressPuncher - 
YPO - Also I think it was more about Vale Tudo than Sport BJJ.

Yes, it was. But it was about the Gracies and the development of BJJ. If it was about fighting, then why no Ralph Gracie? George Gracie? Gracie Academy Challenge matches? Rorion's Vale Tudo challenge fights in America? Rorion's Playboy challenge that started it in the U.S.? Sakuraba's dominance over Renzo, Ralph and Royler? Rodrigo Gracie's fights? Carlson Jr.'s fights?  Why include Helio's Kimura sport match? It was most propoganda for Gracie Barra opinions.


it was called gracies and the BIRTH of vale tudo.

if you want to say it was gracie barra, you are really wrong.

they had a lot about helio. a lot.

just fyi, renzo was a producer on it.

no idea why the fuck roger would be on there. he had no part in the birth of vale tudo.

they were all the very old school and old school guys.

docs was awesome. cry less.

 

 

 


If it was not so much about the 'birth'  of Vale Tudo than the chronology of it. The 'birth' would even predate Carlson and thus Rickson, Renzo, Ryan should have not been in it. at all etc. George Gracie should have been the main focus as well as a couple others from the 1930s. Why weren't they?  Vale Tudo was in Brazil at the turn of the century. This video did nothing but show some selected MMA and the opinion of Gracie Barra camp and showed some Renzo stuff, and Ryan. It was looking at BJJ in terms of Vale Tudo development, and thus should have included what I said for the most part. PErhaps not Roger because he fought most likely after the production.

 

 

To say that it was about old school guy is laughable at best, when guy like Renzo fought almost 60 years after Vale Tudo was in the country. It wasn't about only the old school. It was about giving a different slant on the Carlos Sr./Helio division. It went into length on 'pure BJJ' grappling in the clips, etc. Especially with Rolls.

 

5/13/13 7:31 PM
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blanko
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why would the vid mention Ryron or Renner? What did they ever achieve? You can say whatever you want about Ryan's actions but he actually defended the family name against Luta Livre. Ryron and Renner wasn't mentioned, neither was Kayron or Clark. But then they never fought to defend the family name against dangerous opponents. Renzo and Ryan stood tall with Royler and others and defended their family name against extremely dangerous opponents.
5/14/13 5:04 AM
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Moke
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I thought it was a good watch and I saw and heard a lot of things I hadn't before. What stuck out in my mind though, is that I don't think someone should form an opinion about someone when only hearing one side's version of things (regardless of the situation or who it is). I mean everything they said could be absolutely and technically 100% true, but I'd still like to hear Rorian's response and or explanations to all of the accusations. Leave it up to us to believe him or not and judge whether what he says sounds legit or not.

Even without hearing his side, I was having all sorts of hypothetical possibilities pop up in my head for him doing what he did.
5/14/13 10:18 AM
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PrisonMattressPuncher
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blanko - why would the vid mention Ryron or Renner? What did they ever achieve? You can say whatever you want about Ryan's actions but he actually defended the family name against Luta Livre. Ryron and Renner wasn't mentioned, neither was Kayron or Clark. But then they never fought to defend the family name against dangerous opponents. Renzo and Ryan stood tall with Royler and others and defended their family name against extremely dangerous opponents.

Because this video was also about the progression of BJJ in the Gracie family. Rolls did nothing in terms of pure vale tudo technique. His contribution mainly lie in a more aggressive sport grappling style. Rolls didn't do much true vale tudo beyond challenge matches against Karate guys, etc. He wasn't fighting Luta Livre guys every week or anything. So why was he mentioned in terms of Vale Tudo? Because he was a huge influence on the BJJ style some members practiced, in the same way that the fasmily style is also evolving with the newer generations. Ralek Gracie fought and beat Sakuraba, a man who beat every Gracie he faced. Surely, Ralek should have been mentioned. The point is that video was not about the birth of Vale Tudo as it left out some key players in early Vale Tudo, like George Gracie. It's as if these guys were just a footnote but back then he was the main defender of the family.

5/14/13 10:40 AM
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Penguin of Death
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The message that came out video the strongest for me was that Rickson is a man of honour and integriy and turned his back on the limelight and public feuding when he felt these conflicted with the family ethos.

Rorion may be a great business man, Ryan may or may not have have been a thug but Rickson is a martial artist and this film empthasises that louder than anything else.

I wrote a long review on the UG of this under my old screen name (Mr mofo) and concluded that while it is bias to the Carlos' side, it is a viable alternative to the Helio side which is bias in its own way.

Taking both sides at face value would be a mistake, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The sheer fact we are sitting here debating Carlos/Helio/Carlson and the position in the hierarchy after their deaths speaks in itself for the legacy they left.  

I've only ever trained in what I guess is called sport jiu jitsu but I'm begining to be of the mindset of learning 'Gracie jiu-Jitsu' for the art itself moreso than competing.

5/14/13 2:04 PM
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blanko
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Actually rolls did fight luta Livre guys
5/14/13 3:09 PM
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Truemanc3
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I think both Carlos and Helio were both necessary to produce the bjj we have today...

Carlos was first but Helio flew the bjj flag on his own for along time.

Rickson is an amazing martial artist... Rolls was a huge influence on him getting to the level he did.

Rorian was a great business man and displayed the art to the world.
5/14/13 6:19 PM
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Moke
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I'm sure I must have heard it wrong, but it sounded like they said Helio and Carlos did not attend Roll's funeral?
5/14/13 6:48 PM
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GrahamJ
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You heard right.
The implication was that they were so upset, they couldn't bear to attend.
5/14/13 7:14 PM
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Moke
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Wow. And I totally understand that.
5/14/13 7:21 PM
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MickColins
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GrahamJ - You heard right.
The implication was that they were so upset, they couldn't bear to attend.
According to the Reila book, Helio made some unkind comments after Rolls's death. Phone Post 3.0
5/14/13 7:47 PM
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GrahamJ
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Really...?
Jesus. Does it go into specifics?
5/14/13 8:07 PM
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MickColins
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I can't remember the specifics but it caused Rolls's wife to start yelling at Helio after the funeral. Someone posted the excerpt awhile ago. It kind of shed light on Helio's inability to allow anyone else to get credit. From the Reila book, he was tight with Carlson and Rolls until people started praising them. Then he got jealous. Also probably why he ripped Rickson. 

5/14/13 9:17 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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MickColins - 

I can't remember the specifics but it caused Rolls's wife to start yelling at Helio after the funeral. Someone posted the excerpt awhile ago. It kind of shed light on Helio's inability to allow anyone else to get credit. From the Reila book, he was tight with Carlson and Rolls until people started praising them. Then he got jealous. Also probably why he ripped Rickson. 


“I have always had a strong desire to help those around me. Today, there are a lot of people practicing the techniques I developed, and I am happy that I may have contributed to the increased level of confidence of so many people worldwide. I do not see myself as anybody 'special.' I was sent to earth to do a job. That’s all.”

–Grandmaster Helio Gracie
5/14/13 10:22 PM
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MickColins
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Edited: 05/14/13 10:56 PM
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The Mat Pimp -
MickColins - 

I can't remember the specifics but it caused Rolls's wife to start yelling at Helio after the funeral. Someone posted the excerpt awhile ago. It kind of shed light on Helio's inability to allow anyone else to get credit. From the Reila book, he was tight with Carlson and Rolls until people started praising them. Then he got jealous. Also probably why he ripped Rickson. 


“I have always had a strong desire to help those around me. Today, there are a lot of people practicing the techniques I developed, and I am happy that I may have contributed to the increased level of confidence of so many people worldwide. I do not see myself as anybody 'special.' I was sent to earth to do a job. That’s all.”

–Grandmaster Helio Gracie

"I am not a crook" - Richard Nixon

" I did not have sexual relations with that woman"-bill clinton Phone Post 3.0

 

""Well, I would say that I have had about 50 professional fights in my life in both Brazil and the few times Japan. I know Rickson likes to say he has a record of 400 fights, but if you go by the way he counts I would have a million fights. 


He had 2 fights in Brazil and then maybe 4 or 5 matches in Japan.

Amateur fights, tournament matches, tapping out your students in class, little kids playing... who counts that stuff? Rickson maybe, but I would never count that towards my record. 

What am I going to do? Count the 20 or 30 students in my class that lost to me each day like Rickson did? That would be silly. I would have well over a million fights then."- Helio

5/15/13 2:51 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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To be honest, your quote doesn't seem to support your position that Helio was such a self-aggrandizing egomaniac that he couldn't stand to see his sons succeed.
5/15/13 3:38 PM
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MickColins
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The Mat Pimp - To be honest, your quote doesn't seem to support your position that Helio was such a self-aggrandizing egomaniac that he couldn't stand to see his sons succeed.
That's just a quote about Rickson. You dont find it weird that hed take a shit like that at his kid who was the current familt banner carrier? I was just passing on what the Gracie daughter in the vale tudo movie also said. It's a bummer the reila book won't ever be coming out in English. Phone Post 3.0

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