UnderGround Forums
 

BJJGround Forum >> Gracies and the Birth of Vale Tudo


5/12/13 6:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
blanko
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/10/05
Posts: 418
 
Im wondering if anyone else saw the documentary. Lots of interesting footage and interviews there.
5/12/13 8:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
YPO
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/14/05
Posts: 246
What happened to the other thread?
5/12/13 8:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
YPO
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/14/05
Posts: 247
Also I think it was more about Vale Tudo than Sport BJJ.
5/12/13 9:14 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
thebasher
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/18/05
Posts: 4510
unfair to paint Ryan solely in those terms -
5/12/13 10:32 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
blanko
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/10/05
Posts: 419
Ryan did know know Rorion? Doubt it, but Ryan definately knew rickson at least from his PRIDE days.
5/13/13 7:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
blanko
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/10/05
Posts: 424
why would the vid mention Ryron or Renner? What did they ever achieve? You can say whatever you want about Ryan's actions but he actually defended the family name against Luta Livre. Ryron and Renner wasn't mentioned, neither was Kayron or Clark. But then they never fought to defend the family name against dangerous opponents. Renzo and Ryan stood tall with Royler and others and defended their family name against extremely dangerous opponents.
5/14/13 5:04 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Moke
117 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 34787
I thought it was a good watch and I saw and heard a lot of things I hadn't before. What stuck out in my mind though, is that I don't think someone should form an opinion about someone when only hearing one side's version of things (regardless of the situation or who it is). I mean everything they said could be absolutely and technically 100% true, but I'd still like to hear Rorian's response and or explanations to all of the accusations. Leave it up to us to believe him or not and judge whether what he says sounds legit or not.

Even without hearing his side, I was having all sorts of hypothetical possibilities pop up in my head for him doing what he did.
5/14/13 10:40 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Penguin of Death
81 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/1/13
Posts: 90

The message that came out video the strongest for me was that Rickson is a man of honour and integriy and turned his back on the limelight and public feuding when he felt these conflicted with the family ethos.

Rorion may be a great business man, Ryan may or may not have have been a thug but Rickson is a martial artist and this film empthasises that louder than anything else.

I wrote a long review on the UG of this under my old screen name (Mr mofo) and concluded that while it is bias to the Carlos' side, it is a viable alternative to the Helio side which is bias in its own way.

Taking both sides at face value would be a mistake, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The sheer fact we are sitting here debating Carlos/Helio/Carlson and the position in the hierarchy after their deaths speaks in itself for the legacy they left.  

I've only ever trained in what I guess is called sport jiu jitsu but I'm begining to be of the mindset of learning 'Gracie jiu-Jitsu' for the art itself moreso than competing.

5/14/13 2:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
blanko
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/10/05
Posts: 426
Actually rolls did fight luta Livre guys
5/14/13 3:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Truemanc3
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/11/06
Posts: 4612
I think both Carlos and Helio were both necessary to produce the bjj we have today...

Carlos was first but Helio flew the bjj flag on his own for along time.

Rickson is an amazing martial artist... Rolls was a huge influence on him getting to the level he did.

Rorian was a great business man and displayed the art to the world.
5/14/13 6:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Moke
117 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 34791
I'm sure I must have heard it wrong, but it sounded like they said Helio and Carlos did not attend Roll's funeral?
5/14/13 6:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GrahamJ
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/11/13
Posts: 671
You heard right.
The implication was that they were so upset, they couldn't bear to attend.
5/14/13 7:14 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Moke
117 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 34793
Wow. And I totally understand that.
5/14/13 7:21 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MickColins
137 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/14/08
Posts: 11782
GrahamJ - You heard right.
The implication was that they were so upset, they couldn't bear to attend.
According to the Reila book, Helio made some unkind comments after Rolls's death. Phone Post 3.0
5/14/13 7:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GrahamJ
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/11/13
Posts: 674
Really...?
Jesus. Does it go into specifics?
5/14/13 8:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MickColins
137 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/14/08
Posts: 11783

I can't remember the specifics but it caused Rolls's wife to start yelling at Helio after the funeral. Someone posted the excerpt awhile ago. It kind of shed light on Helio's inability to allow anyone else to get credit. From the Reila book, he was tight with Carlson and Rolls until people started praising them. Then he got jealous. Also probably why he ripped Rickson. 

5/14/13 9:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
The Mat Pimp
89 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/18/06
Posts: 4017
MickColins - 

I can't remember the specifics but it caused Rolls's wife to start yelling at Helio after the funeral. Someone posted the excerpt awhile ago. It kind of shed light on Helio's inability to allow anyone else to get credit. From the Reila book, he was tight with Carlson and Rolls until people started praising them. Then he got jealous. Also probably why he ripped Rickson. 


“I have always had a strong desire to help those around me. Today, there are a lot of people practicing the techniques I developed, and I am happy that I may have contributed to the increased level of confidence of so many people worldwide. I do not see myself as anybody 'special.' I was sent to earth to do a job. That’s all.”

–Grandmaster Helio Gracie
5/14/13 10:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MickColins
137 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/14/13 10:56 PM
Member Since: 7/14/08
Posts: 11785
The Mat Pimp -
MickColins - 

I can't remember the specifics but it caused Rolls's wife to start yelling at Helio after the funeral. Someone posted the excerpt awhile ago. It kind of shed light on Helio's inability to allow anyone else to get credit. From the Reila book, he was tight with Carlson and Rolls until people started praising them. Then he got jealous. Also probably why he ripped Rickson. 


“I have always had a strong desire to help those around me. Today, there are a lot of people practicing the techniques I developed, and I am happy that I may have contributed to the increased level of confidence of so many people worldwide. I do not see myself as anybody 'special.' I was sent to earth to do a job. That’s all.”

–Grandmaster Helio Gracie

"I am not a crook" - Richard Nixon

" I did not have sexual relations with that woman"-bill clinton Phone Post 3.0

 

""Well, I would say that I have had about 50 professional fights in my life in both Brazil and the few times Japan. I know Rickson likes to say he has a record of 400 fights, but if you go by the way he counts I would have a million fights. 


He had 2 fights in Brazil and then maybe 4 or 5 matches in Japan.

Amateur fights, tournament matches, tapping out your students in class, little kids playing... who counts that stuff? Rickson maybe, but I would never count that towards my record. 

What am I going to do? Count the 20 or 30 students in my class that lost to me each day like Rickson did? That would be silly. I would have well over a million fights then."- Helio

5/15/13 2:51 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
The Mat Pimp
89 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/18/06
Posts: 4020
To be honest, your quote doesn't seem to support your position that Helio was such a self-aggrandizing egomaniac that he couldn't stand to see his sons succeed.
5/15/13 3:38 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MickColins
137 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/14/08
Posts: 11791
The Mat Pimp - To be honest, your quote doesn't seem to support your position that Helio was such a self-aggrandizing egomaniac that he couldn't stand to see his sons succeed.
That's just a quote about Rickson. You dont find it weird that hed take a shit like that at his kid who was the current familt banner carrier? I was just passing on what the Gracie daughter in the vale tudo movie also said. It's a bummer the reila book won't ever be coming out in English. Phone Post 3.0
5/15/13 3:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GrahamJ
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/11/13
Posts: 677
He wouldn't be the first person to hide behind a mask of righteousness: how many priests preach charity, but live in opulence?
Preach against homosexuality - but are engaged in homosexuality themselves?

Some people tell people what they want to hear - then when they've got them hooked, they twist the meaning to justify their demands: look at Limp Irvin, FFS; he's never gone "I'm a scumbag - join me!"...not directly, anyway.
5/15/13 4:32 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
EazyG
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/02
Posts: 936
Mick-

I have heard from a few other Gracies that Helio was very sensitive about other family members getting credit for their BJJ. One of Carlos' daughters almost said that verbatim. Could explain some of the distance from Rolls, Carlson, and Rickson, as they were the future of BJJ.
5/15/13 4:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
The Mat Pimp
89 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/18/06
Posts: 4023
MickColins - 
The Mat Pimp - To be honest, your quote doesn't seem to support your position that Helio was such a self-aggrandizing egomaniac that he couldn't stand to see his sons succeed.
That's just a quote about Rickson. You dont find it weird that hed take a shit like that at his kid who was the current familt banner carrier? I was just passing on what the Gracie daughter in the vale tudo movie also said. It's a bummer the reila book won't ever be coming out in English. Phone Post 3.0

I don't think it's dumping on Rickson at all, I think it is being reasonable. The whole 400+ thing was silly. It's painfully obvious if you ever talk to Rorion, Relson, Royler, etc. that they adored their father and felt like he was the best dad in the world. I mention them because I have spoken to them personally; I imagine the same is true with Rickson but I have not had the pleasure of meeting him.

5/15/13 4:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Moke
117 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 34802
I've seen footage of Helio praising Rickson and calling him the family champion.

As for that and any and all other quotes, everything has it's context. I would certainly hate to be judged on EVERYTHING I ever said 30 years after the fact by people who weren't there when I said it and weren't privy to the entire conversation and it's context.
5/15/13 4:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MickColins
137 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/14/08
Posts: 11792
I have no doubt they love their dad. I'm not saying their dad was a bad guy. Compared to Carlos, he was st Francis of Assisi. I'm just saying the dude had some jealousy issues apparently. Which is understandable . He's the youngest brother and the reila book said Carlos thought George and another brother had more potential than Helio. And Helio ended up better than both.

Shit, we all have issues. Phone Post 3.0

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.