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BJJGround Forum >> Is half guard a sub-standard guard..?


5/16/13 10:40 AM
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ChipW
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Stubbsy - http://jiujitsuevolution.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/reflection-time/

bit more on this. Blue please..?

 

http://jiujitsuevolution.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/reflection-time/

5/16/13 10:52 AM
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The Mad Lurker
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GARRA -  I love half and have the smashed up ears and face to prove it Phone Post

5/16/13 3:07 PM
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deepu
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Edited: 05/16/13 3:07 PM
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Matthieu Battle - 
misterw - 
deepu - 
Matthieu Battle - i'm a frail old man and haffgward is my goto game. now, i don't insist on the half when i should be playing something else, so my half is really a liberal mix of RDLR, x, 1 leg x, deep half, knee shield, close underhook, and butterfly. i even occasionally throw in a lasado here and there.

i love it and i'm pretty good at managing the distance, moving in and out and taking the hips. i have about 4-5 sweeps that are pretty much unstoppable (relatively speaking for a weak old purple belt) if i get my grips. doesn't mean i don't occasionally get smashed. fought a guy at a tourney recently who crushed me. CRUSHED me. but generally, i sweep and pass without too much trouble.

gonna add one thing that i do that i don't see a lot of other people doing, that works wonders for me when the dooky gets deep. say your partner has begun to knee cut and you're a beat behind so no RDLR hook for you, it's just hang onto the foot with pinched knees and hope for the best. my thing - lock their knee to your chest, give a quick bump to their ass and transfer their foot to your TOP leg. the back of your knee over their ankle, your calf under their instep, and pull your heel to your butt. i find this gives me a lot of control and frees up my bottom leg so i can come up to a single, or drag my hips under to go the other way, all without losing their leg. this little thing has made a huge difference in my 'emergency' half and has actually turned that into a pretty strong position for me. one of my better sweeps is from that 90% passed spot.

"lock their knee to your chest, give a quick bump to their ass and transfer their foot to your TOP leg. the back of your knee over their ankle, your calf under their instep, and pull your heel to your butt"

If you transfer their foot to your top leg, can't they just pass over both your legs?

Their lower leg is squeezed between your thighs. But your top leg is the one controlling and dragging their lower leg toward your butt.

^ I do same thing, if I'm reading this correctly.

yeah, this is only when their knee is thru and you only have the foot. for awhile people were calling this quarter guard, but i think that's fallen out of favor.

normally i see people control the foot of the knee cutting leg with the leg on the floor and squeezing the knees. this feels insecure to me and ties up both legs. as soon as i can i feed the remaining foot to the top leg - mechanically it's very secure - their heel is firmly trapped between the flexed tendons in my hamstring and my calf.

i keep my knees together until i have the grips i want, but that's just extra insurance. the top leg lock is so secure that even with my lower leg moving around for other stuff, i can still frustrate the hell out of most everyone. and then i sweep em.

Interesting. My go to safety net in this position always involves feeding the skirt of their gi to my arm that goes around the leg. Going to try pinching their ankle with my calf and hamstring.
5/16/13 3:46 PM
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Matthieu Battle
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^oh, yeah. lapel or belt floss all day long!
5/16/13 6:25 PM
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Stubbsy
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markirons - I played half guard pretty exclusively for many years, and its still what I instinctively revert to when I'm in trouble, but for the past couple of years I've really had to try to get away from it for 2 reasons - it puts me in an extremely passive mindset, and I don't make people fight through all the other ranges when I'm in half guard mode, and the style I play gives the advantage of initiative to the other player....I still love having it in my back pocket when things go wrong and somebody passes through my guard, but I'm very glad that I was encouraged to completely give it up for awhile, its done wonders for the aggressiveness of my overall game.

Missed this, but that has happened exactly the same to me, especially the passive mindset comment. Great comment, cheers :-)
5/16/13 8:28 PM
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markirons
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Stubbsy - 
markirons - I played half guard pretty exclusively for many years, and its still what I instinctively revert to when I'm in trouble, but for the past couple of years I've really had to try to get away from it for 2 reasons - it puts me in an extremely passive mindset, and I don't make people fight through all the other ranges when I'm in half guard mode, and the style I play gives the advantage of initiative to the other player....I still love having it in my back pocket when things go wrong and somebody passes through my guard, but I'm very glad that I was encouraged to completely give it up for awhile, its done wonders for the aggressiveness of my overall game.

Missed this, but that has happened exactly the same to me, especially the passive mindset comment. Great comment, cheers :-)

Yeah, I don't know if this happened with you, but anytime somebody would press my open guard, I would just kinda fall over to my side into my 'world' of half guard.

It totally let the other guy set the tone... wasn't that bad when going against guys that I had a technical advantage over, or guys that would try to bully me because of my size thereby overextending themselves, but when going against somebody with equal ability, it meant that I let them choose how to try to pass, and that meant I was playing their A-game.

I noticed it the most with people who had a measured, but initiative based game. They took the advantage I provided, didn't overextend themselves, and just never gave back that space they took. Then took a little bit more, a little more, until they passed.
5/17/13 4:46 PM
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Stubbsy
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markirons - 
Stubbsy - 
markirons - I played half guard pretty exclusively for many years, and its still what I instinctively revert to when I'm in trouble, but for the past couple of years I've really had to try to get away from it for 2 reasons - it puts me in an extremely passive mindset, and I don't make people fight through all the other ranges when I'm in half guard mode, and the style I play gives the advantage of initiative to the other player....I still love having it in my back pocket when things go wrong and somebody passes through my guard, but I'm very glad that I was encouraged to completely give it up for awhile, its done wonders for the aggressiveness of my overall game.

Missed this, but that has happened exactly the same to me, especially the passive mindset comment. Great comment, cheers :-)

Yeah, I don't know if this happened with you, but anytime somebody would press my open guard, I would just kinda fall over to my side into my 'world' of half guard.

It totally let the other guy set the tone... wasn't that bad when going against guys that I had a technical advantage over, or guys that would try to bully me because of my size thereby overextending themselves, but when going against somebody with equal ability, it meant that I let them choose how to try to pass, and that meant I was playing their A-game.

I noticed it the most with people who had a measured, but initiative based game. They took the advantage I provided, didn't overextend themselves, and just never gave back that space they took. Then took a little bit more, a little more, until they passed.

You have described much of my game. I basically let them dictate the pass, and because I have tricks up my sleeve from most positions, I would then try and sweep. No imposing of my game at all. I still enjoyed playing that way though.

This thread didn't relate to that, but it probably contributed for sure!
5/17/13 5:06 PM
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Stubbsy
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http://pantarei.fr/interview-with-the-mendes-brothers-our-style-is-safe/

Just found this interview where the Mendes Bros themselves mention half guard and distance management. (Google will translate)
5/19/13 1:36 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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Modern Self-Defense Center, Founder

Sorry to show up late ;)

The half guard is my most proficient style of guard play, personally.  I play it primarily at the long and middle ranges, and as an aggressive, offensive position (though I also love it as a defensive place to rest).  

I do not prefer close range guard play of any kind, except a small amount of closed guard for strong or spazzy dudes who I'm trying to tire out.  (My close range half guard game, incidentally, is primarily ways to recover my middle range HG, because I've messed up if I land there.)

My middle and long range HG skillsets are strongly intertwined with best practices for Open guard and Side Escapes.  The last thing I ever want to do is spend time on a skillset that doesn't easily integrate with critical neighboring areas -- i.e. that sweep or submission attempt that, if you botch it, puts you in a terrible position.  I prefer to play games in related areas that fully complement each other.  In my case, the Half Guard is the cornerstone of my bottom game.

Cheers,

~Chris

5/19/13 1:46 PM
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The Ghost Of Swayze
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twinkletoesCT - 

Sorry to show up late ;)

The half guard is my most proficient style of guard play, personally.  I play it primarily at the long and middle ranges, and as an aggressive, offensive position (though I also love it as a defensive place to rest).  

I do not prefer close range guard play of any kind, except a small amount of closed guard for strong or spazzy dudes who I'm trying to tire out.  (My close range half guard game, incidentally, is primarily ways to recover my middle range HG, because I've messed up if I land there.)

My middle and long range HG skillsets are strongly intertwined with best practices for Open guard and Side Escapes.  The last thing I ever want to do is spend time on a skillset that doesn't easily integrate with critical neighboring areas -- i.e. that sweep or submission attempt that, if you botch it, puts you in a terrible position.  I prefer to play games in related areas that fully complement each other.  In my case, the Half Guard is the cornerstone of my bottom game.

Cheers,

~Chris


I remember a while back you where thinking of putting out a vid of your HG game. You should still consider that. I'd love to see it.
5/20/13 3:51 PM
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ninja316
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Want to see great half guard games, watch Oliver Geddes and the half guard king, Lucas Leite. My game is pretty much base off of lucas. And that's a pretty good game to follow. 1/2 works for some people and doesn't for others. But like most people say, it's ur A game but don't forget to learn and drill everything else. Osiander is a bug half guard player as well Phone Post 3.0
5/20/13 4:02 PM
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The Gimp
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What does Lucas Leite do that is unique? To my idiot eyes it simply appears as though he cycles through the basic underhook 1/2 guard game (get underhook get to knees then driving sweep rolling sweep or take the back).

I mean, obviously he's the king of that game, but I wonder why he is so effective with it versus other people who simply get smashed underneath.
5/20/13 4:47 PM
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JZilla
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I've learnt from lucas leite and probably watched every video of him on you tube.

Imo he doesn't do anything unique it's just a question of incredible proficiency Phone Post
5/20/13 4:50 PM
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JZilla
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Example :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdLGymM1F7U&feature=youtube_gdata_player Phone Post
5/20/13 6:14 PM
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The Gimp
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man i LOVE that video!

This one is great too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_k_zElz4aU

Lucas Leite teaching how to pull half guard. I'm a standup moron and I've had good success with this

sorry to derail thread
10/28/13 10:27 AM
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Stubbsy
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The Gimp - man i LOVE that video!

This one is great too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_k_zElz4aU

Lucas Leite teaching how to pull half guard. I'm a standup moron and I've had good success with this

sorry to derail thread

Just re-visiting this thread. Nice vid!!!

Bit of reflection... I was clearly missing some distance management skills when I wrote this and have solely worked on the left butterfly hook and RDLR. RDLR has been an absolute godsend and I have virtually removed the possibility of being cross faced by keeping my opponent on the end of my feet.

I have also started to use the method stated by Twinkletoes above, where if I end up in close-mid range half guard I will actively look to put them back on the end of my feet. It has helped MASSIVELY!

Thanks for all the input guys!
10/28/13 12:14 PM
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triso
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I don't think it's sub standard at all. Distance management guards are fine, but they're mostly sport BJJ oriented. The core guards are still closed, half, and butterfly.
10/28/13 1:53 PM
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TrappeBier
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SUB Phone Post
10/28/13 2:30 PM
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Mighty Cthulhu
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Edited: 10/28/13 2:34 PM
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<blockquote>triso - I don't think it's sub standard at all. Distance management guards are fine, but they're mostly sport BJJ oriented. The core guards are still closed, half, and butterfly.</blockquote><br />

And half guard isn't sport BJJ oriented? It can certainly be used effectively in an MMA fight, we have seen that several times, but let's not kid ourselves, 95% of the time the guy in half guard in MMA is getting his ass beat. Most wrestlers will be delighted with an opponent pulling half guard on them in MMA.

If anything, keeping your opponent at distance with your feet is more realistic than trying to work from half guard while they rape you with hammer fists, punches, and elbows. Close range half guard simply doesn't control your opponent enough, and it doesn't maintain distance as protection either. Of course if you do everything perfectly, then you're fine from any guard, but fighting must prepare for reality in which you don't establish great controls ... and then what? In half guard, in a real fight, the guy can easily level you.

Almost every guard has been used effectively in MMA, including DLR and 50/50. The only guards that are consistently used effectively, however, remain closed and butterfly. Half guard is arguably the least successful guard of all in MMA, on a percentage basis, performing significantly worse than even the various exotic sport bjj guards.
10/28/13 3:09 PM
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triso
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Edited: 10/28/13 3:16 PM
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Guys can easily level you
95% of the time the guy is getting his ass beat


Those are exaggerations based on watching guys with poor ground games (in particular off their back) fail to utilize it properly.

It's an essential defensive position for safety on the bottom when you cannot retain closed or butterfly guard and is a great way to move back to those positions or threaten your opponents base to create space.
10/28/13 3:14 PM
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triso
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If anything, keeping your opponent at distance with your feet is more realistic


I just don't agree with that at all. Under combat conditions it's unlikely you will be able to do much from a position with that much free space involved because you simply don't have enough control over your opponents movement and guys are not willing to engage you in a passing battle and instead opt to strike which nullifies a lot of the effectiveness.
10/29/13 10:29 PM
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The Ghost Of Swayze
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triso - 
If anything, keeping your opponent at distance with your feet is more realistic


I just don't agree with that at all. Under combat conditions it's unlikely you will be able to do much from a position with that much free space involved because you simply don't have enough control over your opponents movement and guys are not willing to engage you in a passing battle and instead opt to strike which nullifies a lot of the effectiveness.

Under "combat conditions", it's likely that I'd want to create as much space as possible and get the hell out of there.
10/30/13 6:22 AM
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Shemhazai
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I'd much rather find myself in De La Riva or X-guard than half guard under 'combat conditions'.
10/30/13 7:25 AM
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90lb_weakling
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Under "combat conditions" half guard would have to be played extremely tight to stay safe. But it would also be a half way point between lots of other things. Im very fond of half guard. But i agree with what people say about it making you passive.

Its a bad habit if you dont acknowledge it. Phone Post
10/30/13 9:00 AM
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Stubbsy
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90lb_weakling - Under "combat conditions" half guard would have to be played extremely tight to stay safe. But it would also be a half way point between lots of other things. Im very fond of half guard. But i agree with what people say about it making you passive.

Its a bad habit if you dont acknowledge it. Phone Post
This thread is actually kind of similar to the Chango thread. Is Chango primarily a half guard player too..? Phone Post

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