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HolyGround >> What could God do to convince you he exists?


5/17/13 3:39 PM
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770mdm
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Not just you but all of humanity? Most people on this forum don't believe he has to do much more than he already has but to completely validate he exists. What would he have to do?
5/17/13 3:48 PM
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MEOWticket
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Stiff necked, hard hearted, uncircumcised hearts and ears, unloving people, and evil doers, want nothing to do with God. Even if He was standing in front if them, they would still reject Him.


Didn't watch the vid. Sorry. Phone Post
5/17/13 3:58 PM
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770mdm
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The vid is not that long.  Based on what you said MEOWt I think you'd agree with his conclusion.

5/17/13 4:14 PM
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770mdm
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I hope that "Stiff necked" reference & "uncircumcised hearts and ears" reference weren't towards the Jews.

5/17/13 4:34 PM
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MEOWticket
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770mdm -

I hope that "Stiff necked" reference & "uncircumcised hearts and ears" reference weren't towards the Jews.

What? Phone Post
5/17/13 4:45 PM
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770mdm
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The Isrealites in the desert were considered a "Stiff necked people" and the since Christianity doesn't mandate a physical circumcision but a circumcision of the heart & mind I wanted to make sure that wasn't refering to Jews.  The Jewish people are still considered a "Stiff necked people" who don't accept Jesus as God or the Massiah.  Many people consider Jews, Isrealies especially - hard hearted & unloving.  I was just looking for clarification.   

5/17/13 4:58 PM
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MEOWticket
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Edited: 05/17/13 5:02 PM
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770mdm -


The Isrealites in the desert were considered a "Stiff necked people" and the since Christianity doesn't mandate a physical circumcision but a circumcision of the heart & mind I wanted to make sure that wasn't refering to Jews.  The Jewish people are still considered a "Stiff necked people" who don't accept Jesus as God or the Massiah.  Many people consider Jews, Isrealies especially - hard hearted & unloving.  I was just looking for clarification.   



I meant everyone who rejects God. Not specifically the Jews, and or any race in general. Phone Post
5/17/13 5:26 PM
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770mdm
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The video is interesting.  It demonstrates how difficult the idea of God is.  It alludes to the idea that an idol, in fact any physical manifestation of God would ultimately still be insufficient. 

5/18/13 1:33 AM
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colubrid1
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He is not going to give any more signs..

"An evil and adulterous generation will look for a sign"
5/18/13 1:38 AM
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colubrid1
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770mdm - 

The Isrealites in the desert were considered a "Stiff necked people" and the since Christianity doesn't mandate a physical circumcision but a circumcision of the heart & mind I wanted to make sure that wasn't refering to Jews.  The Jewish people are still considered a "Stiff necked people" who don't accept Jesus as God or the Massiah.  Many people consider Jews, Isrealies especially - hard hearted & unloving.  I was just looking for clarification.   


The Jews as a whole rejected God all along.

They even killed His son and murdered Him on the cross.

Well, actually we all had a part in that. The Jews were just te reps at that time or what all of humanity would have done.
5/19/13 8:35 AM
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770mdm
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colubrid1:  "The Jews as a whole rejected God all along."

Me:  You're funny.  So this is what your church tells you? 

colubrid1: "They even killed His son and murdered Him on the cross."

Me: So let's get into this - The Jewish people had nothing - NOTHING - to do with it. 

colubrid1: "Well, actually we had a part in that.  The Jews were just the reps at that time or what all of humanity would have done."

Me: Who is WE here?  There were Jews & Romans & your're telling me out of the two the Jews were at fault?  The Jews were the bad guys?  Hahahahaha

5/19/13 11:03 AM
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Joeymarvelous
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Signs and wonders. The same visible evidence given the characters of holybooks. Phone Post
5/19/13 5:46 PM
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770mdm
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Deuteronomy 10:16 says "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."  So, I guess Torah also mandates it's people metaphorically circumcise themselves - just as Christians do accept Jews are still mandated to a physical circumcision.

5/20/13 9:04 AM
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Kung Fu Joe
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770mdm -
Not just you but all of humanity? Most people on this forum don't believe he has to do much more than he already has but to completely validate he exists. What would he have to do?
As one of the very few Atheists who posts to HolyGround respectfully and with good intentions, I felt I should respond to this. It is, after all, ostensibly directed at people like me.

Firstly, I disagree with the video's assertion that there is nothing God could do to prove he exists to everyone. If there is truly an omnipotent God, then God could quite easily reveal himself in a way which would convince every doubter. After all, it is a common Christian mantra that "only God can change a man's heart." If he can change any man's heart, surely he could change every man's heart, if he so chose.

So, if there is a God, he does not want to reveal himself to everyone so that everyone will believe. Phone Post
5/20/13 4:57 PM
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770mdm
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In a way I think you're right.  In today's world if God appeared he'd pretty much go viral on the net & mass media, which is something they didn't have back then.  But!  Judaism is a religion based on the assertian that a couple hundred thousand people all were witness to him on Mount Sinai.  It's a substantial claim and its impact is still felt today. 

The God of Israel so cherishes independent-minded men and women that he himself names them Israel, meaning "will contend with God," as a sign of his love and esteem.  - Yoram Hazony.

I think what is meant by God changing mans heart is more about growing up.  You may have been full of piss and vinager in your younger years but now you're more passive.  Even though that is more a human condition, the point is that God created man as a learning machine with a soul not an animal stuck or locked into patterns of behavior.  Humanity must come to realize Gods existence because realizing is much more imactful than just knowing.  I know who my father is but I never knew "who" he was until I realized. 

5/21/13 4:56 PM
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jrrrrr
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ttt - voted up
I like Prager as well 770. I don't always agree with him, but I like the way he reasons...
5/22/13 12:16 PM
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RoidsGracie
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I was thinking about this after watching the video. I feel like even if some sort of miraculous Old Testament biblical miracle occurred at this moment, there would be still a lot of people that would chalk it to simply have naturalistic causes and even if there was no present scientific/naturalistic explanation for that event, that would still say it was a freak occurrence caused by natural forces and that we simply don't have the scientific capability at the moment to discover it's origin at the moment but that one day we would. If God communicated with these people directly, they'd probably check themselves into a mental asylum and assume they had some sort of mental issue.
5/22/13 12:32 PM
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MEOWticket
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RoidsGracie - I was thinking about this after watching the video. I feel like even if some sort of miraculous Old Testament biblical miracle occurred at this moment, there would be still a lot of people that would chalk it to simply have naturalistic causes and even if there was no present scientific/naturalistic explanation for that event, that would still say it was a freak occurrence caused by natural forces and that we simply don't have the scientific capability at the moment to discover it's origin at the moment but that one day we would. If God communicated with these people directly, they'd probably check themselves into a mental asylum and assume they had some sort of mental issue.
This. :/ Phone Post
5/22/13 12:53 PM
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Kung Fu Joe
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RoidsGracie - I was thinking about this after watching the video. I feel like even if some sort of miraculous Old Testament biblical miracle occurred at this moment, there would be still a lot of people that would chalk it to simply have naturalistic causes and even if there was no present scientific/naturalistic explanation for that event, that would still say it was a freak occurrence caused by natural forces and that we simply don't have the scientific capability at the moment to discover it's origin at the moment but that one day we would. If God communicated with these people directly, they'd probably check themselves into a mental asylum and assume they had some sort of mental issue.
To be fair, if a guy claiming to be Thor, son of Odin, came riding up to your driveway in a chariot drawn by goats, raising a mallet towards the sky, and-- at that very moment-- a bolt of lightning struck your mailbox, would you immediately give up everything you think you know to accept this man as the God of Thunder?

We can create hypothetical situations all day long.

I can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that there are verses in the King James translation of the Bible which were not originally in the documents of the New Testament; and yet, there are still people who adamantly proclaim that the KJV 1611 is the perfect Word of God, and that all other translations are the work of the Devil. Phone Post
5/22/13 6:51 PM
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RoidsGracie
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Edited: 05/22/13 6:53 PM
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I truly do think that many people would just assume that the guy had found a way to harness electricity in the same way we can harness many other natural forces.

To someone like say James Randi, even if he observed a guy regrowing a limb I'm sure his first thought would not be that this is a miracle but that the guy has some sort of DNA mutation that allows him to do so.
5/22/13 8:29 PM
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Kung Fu Joe
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RoidsGracie - I truly do think that many people would just assume that the guy had found a way to harness electricity in the same way we can harness many other natural forces.

To someone like say James Randi, even if he observed a guy regrowing a limb I'm sure his first thought would not be that this is a miracle but that the guy has some sort of DNA mutation that allows him to do so.
I'm fairly certain Randi would assume it was an illusion, not some crazy sci fi scenario.

But my point is that these sorts of hypothetical situations are ridiculous to begin with. There's no way to falsify them, which makes them useless in terms of argument. Phone Post
6/4/13 3:28 PM
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zombieinkslinger
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MEOWticket - Stiff necked, hard hearted, uncircumcised hearts and ears, unloving people, and evil doers, want nothing to do with God. Even if He was standing in front if them, they would still reject Him.


Didn't watch the vid. Sorry. Phone Post
A god that promotes slavery, mass killing, victims of rape stoned to dealth or forced to marry the perp. Yeah he sounds like a real stand up god. Phone Post
6/4/13 4:11 PM
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770mdm
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Irrelevant to the thread.  Whatever you think he stands for what could he do to convince you of he exists?  Incidentally there is no prohibition against being athiest in the Torah or OT, just against idols and strange gods. 

6/4/13 4:15 PM
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Kung Fu Joe
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770mdm -

Irrelevant to the thread.  Whatever you think he stands for what could he do to convince you of he exists?  Incidentally there is no prohibition against being athiest in the Torah or OT, just against idols and strange gods. 

O rly?

Psalm 14:1
1 Fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds;
there is no one who does good.
(NRSV) Phone Post
6/10/13 2:37 PM
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770mdm
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So are we talking about what God could do to convince you he exists or are we talking about passages that just say a person is a fool if they don't believe?  The request and the passage are not the same conversation.  My point is there's nothing God could do to convince people of his existance. He revealed himself at Mt. Sinai and Christians believe he walked the earth among us.  Yet, despite everything he is still questioned.  So there's really not much he could do.  I think the Psalm 14:1 passage is talking to people who already believe or understand Gods message.


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