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HolyGround >> What could God do to convince you he exists?


7/7/13 11:12 AM
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bigsakimoto
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Edited: 07/07/13 11:16 AM
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"My apologies for being a jerk"

Have no worries, I didn't take it that way.

"I don't disagree -"

Good, then we can agree that atheists and believers alike have no choice whether to believe or not.

"I'm just saying know your audience better."

That's sound advice I will take to heart. In this instance, atheists were not my targeted audience.
7/7/13 11:37 AM
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bigsakimoto
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"Grace reveals nothing, in and of itself."

Grace is the revealer of God.

"Let's say I have a friend who sees my wallet on the counter. My friend takes twenty dollars from my wallet when he thinks I can't see him, but I managed to witness the theft. Now, let's pretend that I decide to be graceful, let him keep the $20, and never say a word about the whole thing.

How would my friend know that he had been given my grace?"

While God's grace and your grace forgive, the similarities end there.

"As to your "all religions have the same goal" comment, that is absolutely untrue. There are a very great number of religions which have absolutely nothing to do with "divine love.""

True. I should of been more clear, I was referring to the major religions of the world, from Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

"Buddhism, for example, doesn't even necessarily imply any deity, let alone a personal god with emotional attachments to human beings."

Within Buddhism's framework is Hinduism. The path the Buddha taught, to go beyond the senses, can be found in Hindu holy books . Hinduism and Buddhism share the same goal, an escape from suffering, from the temporal to that of permanence. That sounds a lot like Taoism doesn't it? Or the Abrahamic religions and heaven.

"Polytheistic religions like Hinduism"

Hinduism may have arisen from many Gods.The way it's taught and practiced the past few centuries from the Swami's books I've read is that these God's are different aspects of the one, though there's an argument for a Godhead, it's recognized that the Lord's power and will moves through all, and is within all.

""Divine love" is a concept mostly known from the big three Abrahamic faiths. It is not universal to religion."

Divine love and universal love are synonymous, I have found it contained and the heart of all the all the major religions.
7/7/13 3:10 PM
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prof
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Divine love and universal love are synonymous, I have found it contained and the heart of all the all the major religions.


Well, unless you are unfortunate enough to be a homosexual, then your love is deserving of being stoned to death.

Or if you talk back to your "loving" parents...universal love demands you be stoned to death.

Or if you were unlucky enough to be a first born in a particular time at Egypt when Mr. Universal Love was angry, well you were killed.

Or if you were unfortunately enough to be part of earth's inhabitants when God was mad, then you were worthy of being drowned with everyone else.

Or if you couldn't bring yourself to love the type of God who would do those things, or believe in Him, then Mr. Universal Love will leave you in eternal torment.

Or if you aren't a Muslim....

Oh, wait, sorry. I forgot how this works. You ignore all the inconvenient passages in any religion that don't depict the love you want, and say the part you DO LIKE is a the heart of all religions.

Sorry. Carry on...

Prof.
7/8/13 12:07 PM
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Kung Fu Joe
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bigsakimoto - "Grace reveals nothing, in and of itself."

Grace is the revealer of God.

"Let's say I have a friend who sees my wallet on the counter. My friend takes twenty dollars from my wallet when he thinks I can't see him, but I managed to witness the theft. Now, let's pretend that I decide to be graceful, let him keep the $20, and never say a word about the whole thing.

How would my friend know that he had been given my grace?"

While God's grace and your grace forgive, the similarities end there.

"As to your "all religions have the same goal" comment, that is absolutely untrue. There are a very great number of religions which have absolutely nothing to do with "divine love.""

True. I should of been more clear, I was referring to the major religions of the world, from Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

"Buddhism, for example, doesn't even necessarily imply any deity, let alone a personal god with emotional attachments to human beings."

Within Buddhism's framework is Hinduism. The path the Buddha taught, to go beyond the senses, can be found in Hindu holy books . Hinduism and Buddhism share the same goal, an escape from suffering, from the temporal to that of permanence. That sounds a lot like Taoism doesn't it? Or the Abrahamic religions and heaven.

"Polytheistic religions like Hinduism"

Hinduism may have arisen from many Gods.The way it's taught and practiced the past few centuries from the Swami's books I've read is that these God's are different aspects of the one, though there's an argument for a Godhead, it's recognized that the Lord's power and will moves through all, and is within all.

""Divine love" is a concept mostly known from the big three Abrahamic faiths. It is not universal to religion."

Divine love and universal love are synonymous, I have found it contained and the heart of all the all the major religions.
Your claim that God's grace is different than human grace is a logical fallacy called "special pleading." You can't simply redefine a word to fit the image you have for a deity. If I said to you that Odin's knowledge of the runes is the revelator of his existence, you could rightly point out that knowledge, itself, doesn't reveal anything until it is communicated. I couldn't then claim that knowledge for Odin is somehow different than all the other knowledge in the universe.


As to the "major religions," your claim that "divine love" is the central theme of all of them is still incorrect. Sikhism isn't about divine love; it is about the search for Truth. Islam is not about how much Allah loves his people, but about how his people should love him. Judaism is not centered around God's love, but rather focuses on the covenant made with the descendants of Abraham. For Hinduism to have divine love as a central theme, one would first need to get the many, many diverse sects of that faith to agree on whether there are many gods, one god, or no gods. And Buddhists have no concept of god or gods inherent in their religion, let alone the love such gods might espouse.

The only "major religion" for which divine love is the central theme is Christianity. Phone Post
7/8/13 12:46 PM
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bigsakimoto
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prof - 
Divine love and universal love are synonymous, I have found it contained and the heart of all the all the major religions.


Well, unless you are unfortunate enough to be a homosexual, then your love is deserving of being stoned to death.

Or if you talk back to your "loving" parents...universal love demands you be stoned to death.

Or if you were unlucky enough to be a first born in a particular time at Egypt when Mr. Universal Love was angry, well you were killed.

Or if you were unfortunately enough to be part of earth's inhabitants when God was mad, then you were worthy of being drowned with everyone else.

Or if you couldn't bring yourself to love the type of God who would do those things, or believe in Him, then Mr. Universal Love will leave you in eternal torment.

Or if you aren't a Muslim....

Oh, wait, sorry. I forgot how this works. You ignore all the inconvenient passages in any religion that don't depict the love you want, and say the part you DO LIKE is a the heart of all religions.

Sorry. Carry on...

Prof.

The corrupt teachings man injected into the Lord's word is not difficult for me to disavow. It's no coincidence that the common thread in all these religions is universal divine love.
7/8/13 12:57 PM
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bigsakimoto
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"Your claim that God's grace is different than human grace is a logical fallacy called "special pleading." You can't simply redefine a word to fit the image you have for a deity."

The Lord's grace reveals himself. The example you gave of your grace does not reveal the Lord. I'm sorry, but they are not the same.

"As to the "major religions," your claim that "divine love" is the central theme of all of them is still incorrect. Sikhism isn't about divine love; it is about the search for Truth."

Divine love is the truth. That was the central tenet of Guru Nanak's teachings. "There is no Hindu, no Mussalman." There is only love for God, which means love for all, as God is all.

"For Hinduism to have divine love as a central theme, one would first need to get the many, many diverse sects of that faith to agree on whether there are many gods, one god, or no gods."

I once was confused about this also. From the one, come many. While there may be disagreement on the Godhead, there is no disagreement that they are all representations of God. The atman is within all. That sounds very similar to the teaching the Kingdom of Heaven is within all, doesn't it? You'll find many Hindus worship Jesus as a form of God.


"And Buddhists have no concept of god or gods inherent in their religion, let alone the love such gods might espouse."

If you can figure out where the Buddha was trying to escape to, then you will find God. The Dhammapada even mentions Gods, though I suspect the translation I have meant demigods.

"The only "major religion" for which divine love is the central theme is Christianity."

I disagree. There's no difference between a Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Taoist, Buddhist or Jewish Saint. They all dwell in divine love. If divine love is not the central tenet, it's certainly the highest goal.
7/8/13 1:44 PM
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gord96
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Buddhists aren't trying to escape to anywhere. They are trying to find peace, wisdom and compassion in every single moment, right here, right now. Not some 'place'. They don't even try, they just do. Of course you could consider that practice or 'peace' God, but not in the same way you would see the Abrahamic God, etc.

Buddha didn't spend a lot of time worrying about whether there was a God or not. He did not regard the question of the existence or nonexistence of God as very important.

God's were mentioned in Buddhist texts as they were part of the culture.
7/8/13 4:28 PM
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Kung Fu Joe
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bigsakimoto - "Your claim that God's grace is different than human grace is a logical fallacy called "special pleading." You can't simply redefine a word to fit the image you have for a deity."

The Lord's grace reveals himself. The example you gave of your grace does not reveal the Lord. I'm sorry, but they are not the same.

"As to the "major religions," your claim that "divine love" is the central theme of all of them is still incorrect. Sikhism isn't about divine love; it is about the search for Truth."

Divine love is the truth. That was the central tenet of Guru Nanak's teachings. "There is no Hindu, no Mussalman." There is only love for God, which means love for all, as God is all.

"For Hinduism to have divine love as a central theme, one would first need to get the many, many diverse sects of that faith to agree on whether there are many gods, one god, or no gods."

I once was confused about this also. From the one, come many. While there may be disagreement on the Godhead, there is no disagreement that they are all representations of God. The atman is within all. That sounds very similar to the teaching the Kingdom of Heaven is within all, doesn't it? You'll find many Hindus worship Jesus as a form of God.


"And Buddhists have no concept of god or gods inherent in their religion, let alone the love such gods might espouse."

If you can figure out where the Buddha was trying to escape to, then you will find God. The Dhammapada even mentions Gods, though I suspect the translation I have meant demigods.

"The only "major religion" for which divine love is the central theme is Christianity."

I disagree. There's no difference between a Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Taoist, Buddhist or Jewish Saint. They all dwell in divine love. If divine love is not the central tenet, it's certainly the highest goal.
So, for the "grace" part, you're going to stick by your logical fallacy, despite the fact that it is entirely irrational? That's pretty much the case-in-point for why nonbelievers ARE nonbelievers.

But, just for the sake of argument, HOW does God's grace reveal itself? Does the simple fact that he's given it somehow make the recipient aware? If a person is unsure of whether or not they are saved, do they therefore not have God's grace? And how do you differentiate those who do not have God's grace, but believe they have it, from those who actually have it?

Again, until you can explain how an abstract can be revelatory of anything in the absence of a means of communication, all you are doing is asserting the illogical. Phone Post
7/9/13 4:04 PM
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jrrrrr
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Biblically god only openly(in front of a large audience that continued to exist with the knowledge of gods presence) is the jews when they received the 10 commandments.
My understanding was that it was through the torah that we learn how to live and jews would also mention that it is through Talmud that how the torah we meant to apply.

Gods grace is that we are alive and whatever we have is based on god and therefore we should accept what we have as a gift from god.
God is creating something that we as humans cannot perceive with only the little bit of perspective that we have.
7/9/13 9:35 PM
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bigsakimoto
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Edited: 07/09/13 11:31 PM
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"God's were mentioned in Buddhist texts as they were part of the culture."

The text I referenced God's mentioned in, could easily be viewed the way you say they were meant. If I remember correctly it says something like, "even the God emulate the Buddhas." Though I do remember another text about a high ranking householder disciple with many mentions of Gods too. I'm really out of my element in this conversation, perhaps you are right, or perhaps the Gods of Hinduism are closer to the Buddhists ideals than we think.
7/9/13 9:45 PM
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bigsakimoto
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"So, for the "grace" part, you're going to stick by your logical fallacy, despite the fact that it is entirely irrational? That's pretty much the case-in-point for why nonbelievers ARE nonbelievers."

Yes, God makes the devotees and nonbelievers alike. I agree with you, it's irrational.

"But, just for the sake of argument, HOW does God's grace reveal itself? Does the simple fact that he's given it somehow make the recipient aware?"

That's my understanding.

"If a person is unsure of whether or not they are saved, do they therefore not have God's grace?"

No. God's grace leads us all to unity in Heaven.

"And how do you differentiate those who do not have God's grace, but believe they have it, from those who actually have it?"

The Bhagavad Gita describes what a true Brahmin is. Several traits of a God realized man is a person who can do work without attachment to the results, who is selfless and you can read more into it in the book if you are interested.

"Again, until you can explain how an abstract can be revelatory of anything in the absence of a means of communication, all you are doing is asserting the illogical."

It's a matter of personal experience. I can say if you haven't made out with the Lord, you haven't experienced or gotten very far yet.
7/10/13 9:27 AM
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Kung Fu Joe
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bigsakimoto - "So, for the "grace" part, you're going to stick by your logical fallacy, despite the fact that it is entirely irrational? That's pretty much the case-in-point for why nonbelievers ARE nonbelievers."

Yes, God makes the devotees and nonbelievers alike. I agree with you, it's irrational.

"But, just for the sake of argument, HOW does God's grace reveal itself? Does the simple fact that he's given it somehow make the recipient aware?"

That's my understanding.

"If a person is unsure of whether or not they are saved, do they therefore not have God's grace?"

No. God's grace leads us all to unity in Heaven.

"And how do you differentiate those who do not have God's grace, but believe they have it, from those who actually have it?"

The Bhagavad Gita describes what a true Brahmin is. Several traits of a God realized man is a person who can do work without attachment to the results, who is selfless and you can read more into it in the book if you are interested.

"Again, until you can explain how an abstract can be revelatory of anything in the absence of a means of communication, all you are doing is asserting the illogical."

It's a matter of personal experience. I can say if you haven't made out with the Lord, you haven't experienced or gotten very far yet.
Alright, so taking what you've said, here, and bringing it back to the point of the thread, we come up with a fairly simple answer to "What could God do to convince you he exists?"

If God is the one who makes us believers or nonbelievers, in the first place, he could just stop making us nonbelievers. Seems pretty easy.


As for the "personal experience" nonsense, I could just as easily use that to validate any claim. I could, for example, claim that the whole purpose of human life is to strengthen ourselves in violent and mortal battle with one another so that Odin might populate Valhalla with a strong army with which to prepare for Ragnarok. Would you be satisfactorily convinced if my only evidence for this was personal experience? Phone Post
7/10/13 12:14 PM
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Ali
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Kung Fu Joe - If God is the one who makes us believers or nonbelievers, in the first place, he could just stop making us nonbelievers. Seems pretty easy.


This.
Isn't there something about hardening hearts (and presumably being able to soften hearts) that tells us this?
7/11/13 2:43 AM
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bigsakimoto
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Kung Fu Joe - 
bigsakimoto - "So, for the "grace" part, you're going to stick by your logical fallacy, despite the fact that it is entirely irrational? That's pretty much the case-in-point for why nonbelievers ARE nonbelievers."

Yes, God makes the devotees and nonbelievers alike. I agree with you, it's irrational.

"But, just for the sake of argument, HOW does God's grace reveal itself? Does the simple fact that he's given it somehow make the recipient aware?"

That's my understanding.

"If a person is unsure of whether or not they are saved, do they therefore not have God's grace?"

No. God's grace leads us all to unity in Heaven.

"And how do you differentiate those who do not have God's grace, but believe they have it, from those who actually have it?"

The Bhagavad Gita describes what a true Brahmin is. Several traits of a God realized man is a person who can do work without attachment to the results, who is selfless and you can read more into it in the book if you are interested.

"Again, until you can explain how an abstract can be revelatory of anything in the absence of a means of communication, all you are doing is asserting the illogical."

It's a matter of personal experience. I can say if you haven't made out with the Lord, you haven't experienced or gotten very far yet.
Alright, so taking what you've said, here, and bringing it back to the point of the thread, we come up with a fairly simple answer to "What could God do to convince you he exists?"

If God is the one who makes us believers or nonbelievers, in the first place, he could just stop making us nonbelievers. Seems pretty easy.


As for the "personal experience" nonsense, I could just as easily use that to validate any claim. I could, for example, claim that the whole purpose of human life is to strengthen ourselves in violent and mortal battle with one another so that Odin might populate Valhalla with a strong army with which to prepare for Ragnarok. Would you be satisfactorily convinced if my only evidence for this was personal experience? Phone Post

I agree with you.
7/11/13 10:35 AM
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770mdm
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God doesn't "make" us believers or non believers.  God did hardened Pharaoh's heart - but in that situration it was more about the realization of who Pharaoh made himself into as opposed to what God made him.  The whole slave/task master mentality.  I'm still a little skeptical about pinning down why scripture says God actively hardens Phararoh's heart.  I think it's because God ultimately want's to seperate Israel from Egypt.  It's a huge interperative struggle which probably goes beyond the scope of this thread. 

I don't believe there is a necesity for God to interceed today to harden our heards or make us believers or not.  Most of the Exodus story was about the slave/tyrant relationship and how Moses interceeded to introduce to the people a sense of individualism, rebellion, anti-establishment and a new "way" which consists of individual righteousness in relation to the divine.  The fact that we all can debate and formulate our own ideas and discuss them - I believe is biblical.  God has done the job he wanted in this regard and until humanity in the larger picture falls into that mentality again there will be no need for his involvement in that way. 

7/11/13 12:51 PM
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Ali
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770mdm - 

God doesn't "make" us believers or non believers.  God did hardened Pharaoh's heart - but in that situration it was more about the realization of who Pharaoh made himself into as opposed to what God made him.  The whole slave/task master mentality.  I'm still a little skeptical about pinning down why scripture says God actively hardens Phararoh's heart.  I think it's because God ultimately want's to seperate Israel from Egypt.  It's a huge interperative struggle which probably goes beyond the scope of this thread. 

I don't believe there is a necesity for God to interceed today to harden our heards or make us believers or not.  Most of the Exodus story was about the slave/tyrant relationship and how Moses interceeded to introduce to the people a sense of individualism, rebellion, anti-establishment and a new "way" which consists of individual righteousness in relation to the divine.  The fact that we all can debate and formulate our own ideas and discuss them - I believe is biblical.  God has done the job he wanted in this regard and until humanity in the larger picture falls into that mentality again there will be no need for his involvement in that way. 


I agree with you that I don't want to get into interpreting the Exodus story too much for purposes of this thread; but I think that whole issue of affecting (hardening or softening) the heart has direct bearing on the original simple question, "What could God do to convince you he exists?"

That is, I don't think Dennis Prager is is being anything but political and disingenuous. If God gave a sign, he could open your heart to that sign. Whether there's a "need" for such a thing is a complicated question that also gets into things far apart from the original question of the thread. What could God do? Plenty, it seems.
7/11/13 2:32 PM
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770mdm
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Does God hardening the heart of Pharaoh have baring on this thread?  Maybe - God never does this again in scripture so why would we think he could or even would do it again?  God indirectly pushed Pharaoh into a directiion he was already heading in.  If you are predispositioned to violence if I step on your shoe & I know this and then step on your shoe I also have just hardened your heart yes?  Pharaoh was already a monster - He declaired all Israelite male babies be cast into the Nile.  He had a propensity to be done with being held accountable.  But if you believe God zapped Pharaoh with an emotive directive - a hardened heart - then it should be just as easy for him to reveal himself to us.  I don't think that's what happened though.

It shouldn't matter if Prager is being political or genuine or disingenuous.  It's a cool question for us to hash out on our own terms. 

God reveals himself all the time to peope in many different ways.  However, there is no common way to everyone which is what I think the question is making us ponder.  What could God do to have us realize his existance.  I think there are a host of proplems. 

1) Humanity is to have dominion over Fish, Fowl, the cattle, and the entire earth, and over every creeping thing.  Do they know that?  In other words, how can God - (for all intense & purposes) a higher life form let us know of his existance when we can't even do the same for lesser forms of life in our own world?  Dogs - I'll give you dogs but that's it. 

2) By God revealing himself it will generate a whole host of problems.  Just like the israelites loss of identity under they tyrannical rule of Pharaoh in Egypt we would loose all our humanity worshiping God.  Religious nuts do nutty things and in that they loose their sense of humanity - sometimes completely. 

3) According to the Abrahamic faiths - God has revealed himself - at Mt. Sinai.  How many times does he have to do it?  1x 2x?  To who's satisfaction?  In what way to satisfy this generation and the next?  Sooner or later someone would be a denier. 

4) I don't believe scripture is about revealing God as much as it's meant to be a guide for humanity to act accordingly in relation to holiness.  There is no prohibition to be an athiest in Hebrew Scripture - there is prohibition against strange or other gods & idols.  That means to me it is more important for humanity to work it out realistically not wait for God to zap things in order.  God is a teacher not a dictator. 

 

 

 

7/11/13 3:55 PM
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Kung Fu Joe
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770mdm -

Does God hardening the heart of Pharaoh have baring on this thread?  Maybe - God never does this again in scripture so why would we think he could or even would do it again?  God indirectly pushed Pharaoh into a directiion he was already heading in.  If you are predispositioned to violence if I step on your shoe & I know this and then step on your shoe I also have just hardened your heart yes?  Pharaoh was already a monster - He declaired all Israelite male babies be cast into the Nile.  He had a propensity to be done with being held accountable.  But if you believe God zapped Pharaoh with an emotive directive - a hardened heart - then it should be just as easy for him to reveal himself to us.  I don't think that's what happened though.

It shouldn't matter if Prager is being political or genuine or disingenuous.  It's a cool question for us to hash out on our own terms. 

God reveals himself all the time to peope in many different ways.  However, there is no common way to everyone which is what I think the question is making us ponder.  What could God do to have us realize his existance.  I think there are a host of proplems. 

1) Humanity is to have dominion over Fish, Fowl, the cattle, and the entire earth, and over every creeping thing.  Do they know that?  In other words, how can God - (for all intense & purposes) a higher life form let us know of his existance when we can't even do the same for lesser forms of life in our own world?  Dogs - I'll give you dogs but that's it. 

2) By God revealing himself it will generate a whole host of problems.  Just like the israelites loss of identity under they tyrannical rule of Pharaoh in Egypt we would loose all our humanity worshiping God.  Religious nuts do nutty things and in that they loose their sense of humanity - sometimes completely. 

3) According to the Abrahamic faiths - God has revealed himself - at Mt. Sinai.  How many times does he have to do it?  1x 2x?  To who's satisfaction?  In what way to satisfy this generation and the next?  Sooner or later someone would be a denier. 

4) I don't believe scripture is about revealing God as much as it's meant to be a guide for humanity to act accordingly in relation to holiness.  There is no prohibition to be an athiest in Hebrew Scripture - there is prohibition against strange or other gods & idols.  That means to me it is more important for humanity to work it out realistically not wait for God to zap things in order.  God is a teacher not a dictator. 

 

 

 

1. We absolutely can and do reveal ourselves to other animals, on a daily basis. Human interaction with animals has been well documented as affecting their behavioral and social patterns.

2. Are you implying that worshipping God with all one's heart and soul, as the Bible commands, is actually a bad thing? How can you possibly construe Statement #2 as a defense for theism?

3. So, because a person, who may not even have actually existed, over three millennia ago claimed to have seen the revelation of Yahweh, I'm supposed to believe it? If you want to know how many times God needs to reveal himself so that every atheist in the world might believe, just count up the number of atheists.

4. You've said this before, but Psalm 14 is a fairly clear prohibition against atheism. Atheism was far less common 3000 years ago than it is now; it is unsurprising that the Hebrew Scriptures concentrate more on discussing the faults in other theologies than in atheism. Phone Post
7/11/13 10:11 PM
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770mdm
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1. We absolutely can and do reveal ourselves to other animals, on a daily basis. Human interaction with animals has been well documented as affecting their behavioral and social patterns.

Okay.  But animals will never comprehend our ways.  They can be affected but they'll never fully comprehend us.

2. Are you implying that worshipping God with all one's heart and soul, as the Bible commands, is actually a bad thing? How can you possibly construe Statement #2 as a defense for theism?

All of your heart and all of your soul doesn't mean go absolutely looney.  Many people just have the wrong idea.  Just go visit the Wesboro Baptist Church.

3. So, because a person, who may not even have actually existed, over three millennia ago claimed to have seen the revelation of Yahweh, I'm supposed to believe it? If you want to know how many times God needs to reveal himself so that every atheist in the world might believe, just count up the number of atheists.

How did you know your great grandfather was a good man?  Because people you trusted told you.  And no it would have to be in a universal way that everyone sees yes?  Otherwise each individual godly experience an athiest had could be denied by the next atheist.  So Prager was right - there's nothing he could do? 

4. You've said this before, but Psalm 14 is a fairly clear prohibition against atheism. Atheism was far less common 3000 years ago than it is now; it is unsurprising that the Hebrew Scriptures concentrate more on discussing the faults in other theologies than in atheism. Phone Post

Psalm 14 just says you're a fool for not believing. It is hardly a legal obligation.  God may not like it but it isn't a legal prohibition.  God wants to be worshiped by a free people.

 

7/12/13 9:32 AM
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Kung Fu Joe
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1. It doesn't matter whether they understand us or know. They know we exist, which is more than we can say for any sort of deity.

2. So are you saying that God could not openly reveal himself to the world without everyone turning into douchebag zealots?

3. Yes, people I trust. Call me crazy, but I don't think I have any reason to trust the highly edited words of anonymous men who died three thousand years ago in a far less knowledgeable culture, which are demonstrably incorrect in many places.

4. Psalm 14 is not law, in and of itself, but it very clearly states that an atheist cannot possibly follow the law or be a good person. How could that not be interpreted as a prohibition? Phone Post
7/12/13 1:56 PM
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JitsuGuy
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It's impossible for a mythical construct of man to prove his own existence... This is why he has not done so.

Christians of course believe he has but Christianity is the biggest placebo effect in existence. It's all in your head. The voices, the experiences of God all originate from within your own mind.

Most people are indoctrinated from an early age and by the time they develop their critical thinking skills... Their world-view is already well established and they see cause and effect through religious goggles. Spirits in the unseen world guiding outcomes in the real one.

It's extremely sad that here we are in 2013 and people still accept all of this as reality. Life is so bizarre.
7/12/13 2:39 PM
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Kung Fu Joe
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JitsuGuy - It's impossible for a mythical construct of man to prove his own existence... This is why he has not done so.

Christians of course believe he has but Christianity is the biggest placebo effect in existence. It's all in your head. The voices, the experiences of God all originate from within your own mind.

Most people are indoctrinated from an early age and by the time they develop their critical thinking skills... Their world-view is already well established and they see cause and effect through religious goggles. Spirits in the unseen world guiding outcomes in the real one.

It's extremely sad that here we are in 2013 and people still accept all of this as reality. Life is so bizarre.
Look, I don't believe in deities, either, but your arrogant assertions about the nature of reality are no better than those of a Christian.

I make no claim that what theists (or anyone else, for that matter) believe is or isn't true. However, I do ask them to provide evidence of their claim, if they expect me to believe it. Phone Post
7/12/13 2:55 PM
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JitsuGuy
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My assertions are better because they're backed up by real, observable data. God doesn't exist there is no evidence to support the idea... At least give me an mailing address or census record or something. There is more evidence to prove he does not exist than he does.

I'm sorry if my "assertions" based on the world in which we live seem arrogant.
7/12/13 3:33 PM
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Kung Fu Joe
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JitsuGuy - My assertions are better because they're backed up by real, observable data. God doesn't exist there is no evidence to support the idea... At least give me an mailing address or census record or something. There is more evidence to prove he does not exist than he does.

I'm sorry if my "assertions" based on the world in which we live seem arrogant.
Your tone is what seems arrogant, not the assertions in and of themselves.

And since you are a reasonably intelligent person, I assume you are familiar with the logical problems inherent in attempting to prove a negative. So, yes, while it is perfectly reasonable to believe that there is no god, it is also an unprovable position. Phone Post
7/12/13 4:03 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Kung Fu Joe - 
JitsuGuy - My assertions are better because they're backed up by real, observable data. God doesn't exist there is no evidence to support the idea... At least give me an mailing address or census record or something. There is more evidence to prove he does not exist than he does.

I'm sorry if my "assertions" based on the world in which we live seem arrogant.
Your tone is what seems arrogant, not the assertions in and of themselves.

And since you are a reasonably intelligent person, I assume you are familiar with the logical problems inherent in attempting to prove a negative. So, yes, while it is perfectly reasonable to believe that there is no god, it is also an unprovable position. Phone Post

Knowledge breeds confidence and I may be a bit arrogant. I believe my position comes from one of observable, testable and provable data. The other is based on an ancient text by anonymous authors who's claims to be the absolute truth yet their contradictions abound and scream "hoax."

If a person wants to believe in God, that's fine. I just see no evidence that belief in this being sheild a person from the normal burdens much of humanity faces. Believers are no happier, sadder, healthier, unhealthier, richer or poorer than their unbelieving counter-parts.

And then you have people like Rich Mullins and Carmen who devote their lives to ministry and in the case of Rich, he died a horrendous death and Carmen will be lucky to live to be 60.

But then again, God favors no one (Romans 2:11) so why believe anyway? There's nothing you can do to gain any kind of favor else you make God a liar.




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