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UnderGround Forums >> lol @ "TRT Vitor is unfair!"


5/22/13 4:10 PM
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Arlovskis Chin
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GSPsShadyHandWraps -
fapout - 
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
GSPsShadyHandWraps -
orcus - 
BlueDream - So if a guy made a mistake at a young age and took roids and now has messed up test levels he should never be able to fight again??? This seems extreme to me...Plenty of fighters have been in jail for far worse crimes, it's just those mistakes didn't wreck their bodies....

 

lol, exactly.

 

Also, as for Vitor specifically:

The Nevada State Athletic Commission eventually received a statement from Dr. Greco stating that he did give Belfort post surgical [surgery to repair torn knee meniscus] injections containing testosterone.[8] While conceding that Belfort may have not known about the testosterone, the NSAC explained that even if Belfort was given injections by a medical practictioner who did not inform him that they contained anabolic steroids, it would still be a violation of the banned substances policy.


Thats impossible. Taking testosterone injections wont make you test positive for 4-Hydroxytestosterone wich is what Vitor had in his system. So that doctor is about as legit as Ubereems doctor

Oops.

How will failout and dorkus deflect from this??? Phone Post

If you actually read the quote you would read injections containing test...meaning that there are other chemicals in the injection.

fail on...lmao

Other chemicals would be things like benzyl alchohol or ethyl oleate none of wich are illegal. 4-Hydroxytestosterone however is not a chemical, its a designer steroid that was never approved by the FDA for medical use, you wont find a doctor including it in anything unless he wants to lose his license

VTFU
nice to see a post spreading serious knowledge. Phone Post 3.0
5/22/13 7:00 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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Did the commission in Overeem's case concede that his story was consistent and he may not have been aware he took testosterone, as they did in Vitor's case?


Vitor and Alistair excuses are nearly identical, the comission are a bunch of jerkoffs:


"Overeem released a prepared statement to the media in which he claims the positive result of the drug test came as a result of a doctor prescribed "anti-inflammatory medication that was mixed with testosterone."[27]"


"Belfort also explained that he may have received 4-Hydroxytestosterone as the result of rehabilitative injections given to him by Brazilian endocrinologist Dr. Rodrigo M. Greco after his surgery to repair a torn meniscus in his knee in the summer of 2006"




Inadvertent use is the oldest excuse in the book, it was Carl Lewis who invented that.

5/22/13 8:10 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Orcus I apologize for not reading your quotes properly. When I read the the first time the only thing I saw was the CSAC asking for blood 30 days out. Not kizer or the other guy saying yes to during camp tests.
Sorry I made you so emotional over that. You have my apology, in writing, to save and throw out in other discussions later.


Your defense of Vitor and his 2006 roiding is still laughable. Whether its the "well I didn't know what I was injecting from my doctor" or "maybe I took some supplements that were tainted" it is all horseshit and you know it. Every other similar excuse from past athletes is known to be a horseshit excuse. The commissions didn't buy the horseshit, and niether do the fans.



In a perfect world ALL fighters should be randomly blood tested all year. Vada has offered to help the UFC implement a policy and even help with the costs, but Dana claims its not possible for some odd reason. Phone Post
5/22/13 8:19 PM
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armbarseverywhere
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Any word from the Brazilian commission how stringent vitor's testing was? Results from his fight camp levels? Anything?
5/22/13 8:37 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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armbarseverywhere - Any word from the Brazilian commission how stringent vitor's testing was? Results from his fight camp levels? Anything?
No.

All we have is Vitor's claim.
We do have Ratner directly contradicting Dana about the UFC "testing the shit out of fighters on trt". Ratner straight up dicktucked and said the Brazil commission handles testing, not the UFC. Phone Post
5/22/13 9:34 PM
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orcus
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"Your defense of Vitor and his 2006 roiding is still laughable."

I'm not defending him. I'm saying there are some differences between his situation and Alistair's. Personally I don't care too much either way. As I've said, I think that most if not essentially all fighters are on something or have been for the majority of their fights.

I'm still waiting for your substantiaton/explanation of your fundamental premise: How is it easier for someone with a TUE to abuse steroids than someone without? Given that they have to take, and pass, all the same tests at all the same limits, and in ADDITION to that they also have to take blood tests for their actual testosterone levels, not just after the fight but in camp, AND they have additional scrutiny from the commissions, the press, and the fans.

 

 

5/22/13 9:36 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/22/13 9:40 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
armbarseverywhere - Any word from the Brazilian commission how stringent vitor's testing was? Results from his fight camp levels? Anything?
No.

All we have is Vitor's claim.
We do have Ratner directly contradicting Dana about the UFC "testing the shit out of fighters on trt". Ratner straight up dicktucked and said the Brazil commission handles testing, not the UFC. Phone Post

 

Who knows how stringent it was? The fact remains that ANY in-camp testing is automatically more "stringent" than anything guys without TUEs have to go through, since they don't have to give blood EVER. They said his levels were normal, are you surprised they didn't announce the actual number?

"We do have Ratner directly contradicting Dana about the UFC "testing the shit out of fighters on trt". Ratner straight up dicktucked and said the Brazil commission handles testing, not the UFC"

Can you explain how Ratner telling the press that the Brazil commission did the testing is a dicktuck? He never claimed the UFC was going to do the testing, did he? In addition, does it matter who does the testing, the UFC or the athletic commission? I would have to imagine the AC doing the testing would be preferable to you and to everyone, isn't it? After all, everyone scoffs at the UFC doing their own drug testing in the UK and elsewhere, because "of course they aren't going to find any of their stars positive". Now you're complaining that they're not doing it? Is this another of those situations where your mind is so made up in advance that literally no possible option would meet anything but derision from you?

 

5/22/13 9:52 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus - 

"Your defense of Vitor and his 2006 roiding is still laughable."

I'm not defending him. I'm saying there are some differences between his situation and Alistair's. Personally I don't care too much either way. As I've said, I think that most if not essentially all fighters are on something or have been for the majority of their fights.

I'm still waiting for your substantiaton/explanation of your fundamental premise: How is it easier for someone with a TUE to abuse steroids than someone without? Given that they have to take, and pass, all the same tests at all the same limits, and in ADDITION to that they also have to take blood tests for their actual testosterone levels, not just after the fight but in camp, AND they have additional scrutiny from the commissions, the press, and the fans.

 

 


I already discussed this but you may have overlooked it.

 

Fighters without TUEs are likely using designer steroids, not straight Test. They have to worry about the normal testing as those tests do panel for specific steroids outside of just the t/e ratio tests. Having a TUE gives you synthetic testosterone, the grand daddy of all steroids, at a much cheaper cost on a prescription. It also allows them to have a reason to dispute a t/e ratio over the limits in the places that still require TRT users to come in under certain t/e ratios. Don't pretend that a "yes" a "yes" and a "30 days out (CSAC)" is some sort of proof of how often they are tested during camps, and that it eliminates any chance of them hitting the juice hard during camps.

Until we see RANDOM blood testing for TRT patients year round, there will always be questions raised and speculation of what these fighters are really doing.

 

Yes there is still always suspicions for fighters not on TRT, but we are having a discussion about the ones who are on TRT.

 

Given you concede that it is such a hassle from the press and fans to be on TRT, I am surprized you push such an agenda that it doesn't really enhance performance, and try and claim as fact that they are just patients who use it to get back to "normal".

5/22/13 10:09 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Edited: 05/22/13 10:10 PM
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"Who knows how stringent it was? The fact remains that ANY in-camp testing is automatically more "stringent" than anything guys without TUEs have to go through, since they don't have to give blood EVER. They said his levels were normal, are you surprised they didn't announce the actual number?"

 

Yes, we know absolutely nothing about the testing done by the newly formed, home town (for Vitor) commission. What we do know: 

Vitor is from Brazil.

Brazil is country riddled with government corruption and greed.

Dana claimed the UFC would be "testing the shit" out of anyone on TRT. Vitor was the first opportunity for the UFC to "test the shit out of" a TRT user. When the man in charge of those things at Zuffa, Marc Ratner, was asked if they "tested the shit" out of Vitor his response was NO, they didn't do a damn thing at all, and put the onis on the Brazil commission instead of explaining why they didn't "test the shit" out of Vitor.

Since the UFC leaked that Vitor is on TRT (something Vitor LIED about and tried to cover up) the UFC has had him fight outside of the commissions that we KNOW are the most stringent.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Vitor will not be allowed a TUE by Nevada, but I would LOVE for him to try so we can see the results of his FSH and LH tests to see how much steroid abuse the man really has done over the years...

5/22/13 10:20 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus - 

"Your defense of Vitor and his 2006 roiding is still laughable."

I'm not defending him. I'm saying there are some differences between his situation and Alistair's. Personally I don't care too much either way. As I've said, I think that most if not essentially all fighters are on something or have been for the majority of their fights.

I'm still waiting for your substantiaton/explanation of your fundamental premise: How is it easier for someone with a TUE to abuse steroids than someone without? Given that they have to take, and pass, all the same tests at all the same limits, and in ADDITION to that they also have to take blood tests for their actual testosterone levels, not just after the fight but in camp, AND they have additional scrutiny from the commissions, the press, and the fans.

 

 


Oh give me a break. I conceded I failed to read your posts properly, and apologized. For once in your posting career here admit something. You were absolutely trying to defend Vitor's positive test, or trying to dismiss it as an accident that he injected stuff he didn't know about, or took over the counter supplements .

 

That forst excuse is EXACTLY like Overeem's claim. "We didn't know what our doctor gave us to inject into ourselves".

 

We already know that the prescription injection excuse is a JOKE in Vitor's case as a Dr. would not be prescribing 4-hydroxytestosterone as it is NOT FDA approved and only available on the black market. So then the Vitor apologists point to Vitor's pathetic claim that he might have "accidentally" taken tainted supplements. Both defenses are a JOKE, and you absolutely were trying to defend him. It's okay to admit. Everyone can see your agenda on these TRT threads is to defend it's use and try and pretend that there is no potential for abuse of the TRT.

5/23/13 5:08 AM
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GSPsShadyHandWraps
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"Inadvertent use is the oldest excuse in the book, it was Carl Lewis who invented that."

True. The strange part of the Vitor story though is his doctor admitting he was also giving him another kind of steroid wich Vitor did not even actually test positive for.

5/23/13 6:06 AM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/23/13 6:07 AM
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"Fighters without TUEs are likely using designer steroids, not straight Test."

Why? And provide a source, please.

" It also allows them to have a reason to dispute a t/e ratio over the limits in the places that still require TRT users to come in under certain t/e ratios"

lol...do you have any reason whatsoever to believe this has ever happened, or would avoid suspension? And when you say "in the places that stil require", do you have any source for or reason to believe any AC's *don't* still require TUE guys to pass that test?

"Until we see RANDOM blood testing for TRT patients year round, there will always be questions raised and speculation of what these fighters are really doing."

I agree, except subtract "for TRT patients" and replace it with "all fighters".

" When the man in charge of those things at Zuffa, Marc Ratner, was asked if they "tested the shit" out of Vitor his response was NO, they didn't do a damn thing at all, and put the onis on the Brazil commission instead of explaining why they didn't "test the shit" out of Vitor."

It's not Ratner's job to guess as to Dana's motivations for spurting off any random statement he does to the press, or to explain why reality doesn't match those impulsive statements. 

In any case, not that it matters, but Dana's comment came how long before the fight? How long do you think it would realistically take to devise and implement some kind of testing regimen? You don't just throw something like that together in two weeks without lots of consultation of doctors, lawyers, etc.

" I would LOVE for him to try so we can see the results of his FSH and LH tests to see how much steroid abuse the man really has done over the years..."

I would love to see that for every fighter, I have no doubt that some fighters who never tested positive -- maybe even your favorites -- would have more revealing numbers than Vitor's.

"Everyone can see your agenda on these TRT threads is to defend it's use"

Uh...obviously.

5/23/13 7:24 AM
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Lazer MMA
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"We already know that the prescription injection excuse is a JOKE in Vitor's case as a Dr. would not be prescribing 4-hydroxytestosterone as it is NOT FDA approved and only available on the black market. So then the Vitor apologists point to Vitor's pathetic claim that he might have "accidentally" taken tainted supplements. Both defenses are a JOKE, and you absolutely were trying to defend him. It's okay to admit."

Is a supporter of Belfort doing TRT going to address this point or is it all over?
5/23/13 8:15 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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I would love to respond to you orcus, but you make it impossible from a phone without your multi quotes into one giant wall post. I am only able to use my phone to post for a month or two, as I just took on a new job and moved 1100 miles on a weeks notice.

When I quote you on android I cannot see your post I am quoting. Too many responses in one post for me to memorize before I quote.

I am MOST interested in, and feel the need to, see the fsh and lhw tests for someone REQUESTING STEROIDS, than just every single fighter ever. That's a little unreasonable. With a TUE request there is a reason to investigate prior steroid abuse. When a fighter is not requesting more steroids and has never been popped before, there is no real motivator other than your curiousity, to run tests about prior abuse.

Fighters could have roided in the past, and show issues in the fsh and lh tests, but they are not requesting MORE. steroids. Phone Post
5/23/13 8:16 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Lazer MMA -
"We already know that the prescription injection excuse is a JOKE in Vitor's case as a Dr. would not be prescribing 4-hydroxytestosterone as it is NOT FDA approved and only available on the black market. So then the Vitor apologists point to Vitor's pathetic claim that he might have "accidentally" taken tainted supplements. Both defenses are a JOKE, and you absolutely were trying to defend him. It's okay to admit."

Is a supporter of Belfort doing TRT going to address this point or is it all over?
Their onto responses have been to deflect, talk about how other fighters who never failed MIGHT have done them too, and ignore how pathetic those excuses are. Phone Post
5/23/13 8:19 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Orcus I also get a kick out of how you cut off he end of my sentence at the end of your response about defending trt and ignore the important part. Its cute. Phone Post
5/23/13 9:10 AM
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Lazer MMA
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
Lazer MMA -
"We already know that the prescription injection excuse is a JOKE in Vitor's case as a Dr. would not be prescribing 4-hydroxytestosterone as it is NOT FDA approved and only available on the black market. So then the Vitor apologists point to Vitor's pathetic claim that he might have "accidentally" taken tainted supplements. Both defenses are a JOKE, and you absolutely were trying to defend him. It's okay to admit."

Is a supporter of Belfort doing TRT going to address this point or is it all over?
Their onto responses have been to deflect, talk about how other fighters who never failed MIGHT have done them too, and ignore how pathetic those excuses are. Phone Post


It's 100 percent that across the board testing is needed! Fighters keep saying there are cheats. Why the UG ignores this data and focuses only on TRT is way beyond me. This does not detract from your "main point" that TRT users need testing all the time. It does though make it more evident how legit it is that Belfort is the only TRT user banned from Vegas (if your popped and a known user for years - per your assertion- there is nothing to talk about)
5/23/13 10:38 AM
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orcus
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"When a fighter is not requesting more steroids and has never been popped before, there is no real motivator other than your curiousity, to run tests about prior abuse."

No real motivator? Every fighter, TUE request or not, has the exact same motivation to abuse steroids -- to get an "unfair advantage". Seeing as how AT NO TIME are guys without exemptions EVER blood tested, it seems very important to me to begin blood testing them rather than to worry about more blood tests for the TUE guys on top of the blood tests they're already taking. If, that is, you are concerned about people roiding for an unfair advantage.

"Orcus I also get a kick out of how you cut off he end of my sentence at the end of your response about defending trt and ignore the important part. Its cute"

Oh, this was the important part? " pretend that there is no potential for abuse of the TRT." I thought I'd cut you a break and not highlight your moronic strawman. Of course there is potential for of abuse of steroids. This is entirely unrelated to TRT and TUEs. For the 5 millionth fucking time, guys without TUEs have the exact same "potential for abuse", AND they have more lax testing on top of that.

5/23/13 10:38 AM
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orcus
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Since LnP cannot respond to all my points because my posts are too long and he can't memorize my questions, yet magically can always respond to irrelevant points and make up strawmen, I'll give this one its own post:

 

"Fighters without TUEs are likely using designer steroids, not straight Test."

Why? And provide a source, please.

5/23/13 10:39 AM
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orcus
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And this one:

 

" It also allows them to have a reason to dispute a t/e ratio over the limits in the places that still require TRT users to come in under certain t/e ratios"

lol...do you have any reason whatsoever to believe this has ever happened, or would enable the fighter to avoid suspension? And when you say "in the places that stil require", do you have any source for or reason to believe any AC's don't require TUE guys to pass that test?

5/23/13 7:51 PM
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DaemonDragon
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Wow. I normally find orcus' posts suspect (e.g. his long over-the-top anti-Fedor agenda).

However this thread is just a savage beating. orcus has completely owned pretty much every aspect of the conversation. Kudos to him for his actual work finding quotes, sources, etc. Instead of the normal he-said-she-said random speculation that normally goes around this place.

Personally, I believe 19 year old Vitor was a massive roider. And he might have roided for a few years after that - though oddly his only positive result probably came at likely his lowest amount of juicing, based on his physique and results.

He currently is testing at normal test levels as proven by blood tests. Yes, he probably effed up his system via juicing earlier - but his winning nowadays and current physique clearly has little to do with test usage, other than having it revert to normal levels.

Now, if US commissions want to deny him a TUE based on this, I have no problem with it. What I find baffling is that Chael - who tested at an absurd 17:1 AND blatantly lied about Keith Kizer's statements - somehow managed to get a TUE after pissing hot and lying out his ass about the statements of a fucking AC, yet Vitor after popping 7 years ago cannot get a TUE.

Can anyone begin to explain that? What possible logic could there be here?
5/23/13 10:00 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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"but his winning nowadays and current physique clearly has little to do with test usage, other than having it revert to normal levels."

He may be juicing heavily and building up his physique pre-camp, and then doing maintenance at replacement dose during camp which is when he submits blood samples. If he really is submitting blood samples, that is.
5/23/13 10:55 PM
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Barbalos
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I kind of think that PED usage is more ubiquitous than ever...so...singling out TRT users doesn't make a ton of sense to me. The TRT users are not breaking any rules, period. Every experienced person who speaks out about steroids/illegal PED use among fighters says that it happens a LOT.
5/24/13 12:46 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus -

Since LnP cannot respond to all my points because my posts are too long and he can't memorize my questions, yet magically can always respond to irrelevant points and make up strawmen, I'll give this one its own post:

 

"Fighters without TUEs are likely using designer steroids, not straight Test."

Why? And provide a source, please.

Designer steroids are more readily available on the black market, and can be custom tailored to specific attributes the fighter is looking for help with.

How often do you see fighter who tests hot coming back with just synthetic testosterone compared to specific designer steroids?

Lmfao@ asking me for a source on something that I clearly said "likely" to, and is my opinion. My source is me, and the years and years of fighters being popped for specific designer steroids compared to just synthetic test.

And how fucking childish are you to try and mock me for asking you to stop posting a wall of text with 5 different quotes and responses? I clearly am using a phone, and the quote function on this app doesn't show you the actual post you are quoting. Takes a real douche bag to try and mock someone for that simple of a request. Make 5 posts instead of your essays for me, thanks. Phone Post
5/24/13 12:50 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus -

And this one:

 

" It also allows them to have a reason to dispute a t/e ratio over the limits in the places that still require TRT users to come in under certain t/e ratios"

lol...do you have any reason whatsoever to believe this has ever happened, or would enable the fighter to avoid suspension? And when you say "in the places that stil require", do you have any source for or reason to believe any AC's don't require TUE guys to pass that test?

One of your quotes from kizer said that if a fighter on a Tue came in over the 6:1 kizer would need to investigate thuroughly or something to that effect, which implies that he would not necessarily consider that a flat out fail, that he would look further into the blood work etc...

Your own quote from kizer is my source.

We also don't know anything about the brand new commission in Brazil regarding whether they still require a t/e ratio under a certain level for trt users, and I have seen nothing from Canadian commissions on the subject either. Phone Post

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