UnderGround Forums
 

UnderGround Forums >> lol @ "TRT Vitor is unfair!"


5/24/13 12:46 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 19880
orcus -

Since LnP cannot respond to all my points because my posts are too long and he can't memorize my questions, yet magically can always respond to irrelevant points and make up strawmen, I'll give this one its own post:

 

"Fighters without TUEs are likely using designer steroids, not straight Test."

Why? And provide a source, please.

Designer steroids are more readily available on the black market, and can be custom tailored to specific attributes the fighter is looking for help with.

How often do you see fighter who tests hot coming back with just synthetic testosterone compared to specific designer steroids?

Lmfao@ asking me for a source on something that I clearly said "likely" to, and is my opinion. My source is me, and the years and years of fighters being popped for specific designer steroids compared to just synthetic test.

And how fucking childish are you to try and mock me for asking you to stop posting a wall of text with 5 different quotes and responses? I clearly am using a phone, and the quote function on this app doesn't show you the actual post you are quoting. Takes a real douche bag to try and mock someone for that simple of a request. Make 5 posts instead of your essays for me, thanks. Phone Post
5/24/13 12:50 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 19881
orcus -

And this one:

 

" It also allows them to have a reason to dispute a t/e ratio over the limits in the places that still require TRT users to come in under certain t/e ratios"

lol...do you have any reason whatsoever to believe this has ever happened, or would enable the fighter to avoid suspension? And when you say "in the places that stil require", do you have any source for or reason to believe any AC's don't require TUE guys to pass that test?

One of your quotes from kizer said that if a fighter on a Tue came in over the 6:1 kizer would need to investigate thuroughly or something to that effect, which implies that he would not necessarily consider that a flat out fail, that he would look further into the blood work etc...

Your own quote from kizer is my source.

We also don't know anything about the brand new commission in Brazil regarding whether they still require a t/e ratio under a certain level for trt users, and I have seen nothing from Canadian commissions on the subject either. Phone Post
5/24/13 1:10 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BlueDream
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/2/09
Posts: 1745
In the media scrum today Dana said Vitor was tested throughout his whole camp.
5/24/13 6:06 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
orcus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/24/13 6:10 AM
Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 77970

"Designer steroids are more readily available on the black market, and can be custom tailored to specific attributes the fighter is looking for help with."

You are making no fucking sense. A guy doesn't need a TUE from an athletic commission to get testosterone from his doctor. If testosterone is better and thus you are claiming it as an unfair advantage for the guy with the TUE, then AGAIN, why would non-TUE cheaters use "designer steroids"? It's a simple question.

"How often do you see fighter who tests hot coming back with just synthetic testosterone compared to specific designer steroids?"

So again, why are they choosing "designer steroids" over synthetic test?

 

 

5/24/13 6:07 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
orcus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/24/13 6:18 AM
Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 77971

 

"One of your quotes from kizer said that if a fighter on a Tue came in over the 6:1 kizer would need to investigate thuroughly or something to that effect, which implies that he would not necessarily consider that a flat out fail, that he would look further into the blood work etc..."

He also said every TUE fighter has come in under that.

And of course the key point that keeps being pointed out to you -- even by posters you find credible enough to take as gospel anything they say that helps your position -- is that the ratio is essentially irrelevant anyway. The ratio matters for non-TUE fighters because it is the detector for roid use. We know the TUE guys are using test, so who cares what their ratio is? What matters is their actual testosterone level, and luckily, they are in fact given a blood test to determine that -- at fight time, AND before in camp.

5/24/13 9:42 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 19886
orcus -

 

"One of your quotes from kizer said that if a fighter on a Tue came in over the 6:1 kizer would need to investigate thuroughly or something to that effect, which implies that he would not necessarily consider that a flat out fail, that he would look further into the blood work etc..."

He also said every TUE fighter has come in under that.

And of course the key point that keeps being pointed out to you -- even by posters you find credible enough to take as gospel anything they say that helps your position -- is that the ratio is essentially irrelevant anyway. The ratio matters for non-TUE fighters because it is the detector for roid use. We know the TUE guys are using test, so who cares what their ratio is? What matters is their actual testosterone level, and luckily, they are in fact given a blood test to determine that -- at fight time, AND before in camp.

Wait so you asked me, and then got butthurt over and over when I didn't answer, a question about my post regarding a t/e ratio, and how it is easier for a trt user to have an excuse if they fail it..... and then when I do and its your own quote you try and go back to how irrelevant the t/e ratio is????

Cute.

I know it is irrelevant to actual testosterone levels. Never once said otherwise. I simply answered your question with your own damn quote from kizer. Phone Post
5/24/13 9:44 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 19887
orcus -

"Designer steroids are more readily available on the black market, and can be custom tailored to specific attributes the fighter is looking for help with."

You are making no fucking sense. A guy doesn't need a TUE from an athletic commission to get testosterone from his doctor. If testosterone is better and thus you are claiming it as an unfair advantage for the guy with the TUE, then AGAIN, why would non-TUE cheaters use "designer steroids"? It's a simple question.

"How often do you see fighter who tests hot coming back with just synthetic testosterone compared to specific designer steroids?"

So again, why are they choosing "designer steroids" over synthetic test?

 

 

I cannot speak to why fighters choose to take the steroids they choose to take.

Again designer steroids can be better than testosterone if they are looking for a specific gain in a specific area. They are just more risky than having a Tue for trt. Phone Post
5/24/13 12:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
orcus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 77972

"Again designer steroids can be better than testosterone if they are looking for a specific gain in a specific area. They are just more risky than having a Tue for trt. "

You're still unable to explain why someone with a TUE is more able to cheat than someone without one.

Why would a fighter who wants to cheat and pump up his levels beyond normal choose to apply for a TUE rather than just use whatever roids he wants in secret?

If a fighter intends to follow the rules, his TRT TUE does nothing but let him get his levels back to normal.

If a fighter does not intend to follow the rules, his TRT TUE does nothing but require him to get more (and more revealing) tests than if he did not have it.

5/24/13 12:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 19896
I already addressed that twice orcus. You just choose to ignore it, or don't agree with it. Why do I need to keep repeating it for you? Phone Post
5/24/13 12:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
orcus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/24/13 12:42 PM
Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 77973

You haven't given any kind of answer that makes any sense.

Here's what you said last page:

"Fighters with a TUE don't have to get designer steroids that are individually tested for in panels now. They can just use their trt, which they likely get at a lower price legally, to gain unfair advantages during training that clean fighters don't have. Phone Post"

None of that makes a lick of sense.

Non-TUE guys can get TRT from a doctor. They don't "have to get designer steroids". They can "just use their trt" to "gain unfair advantages during training". The only difference is that by skipping the whole TUE business, they never get blood tested, and they never have their actual testosterone level measured.

Also funny that in the last few pages you repeatedly said an advantage TUE guys had was that they "didn't have to use designer steroids"; now you are suddenly saying "I cannot speak to why fighters choose to take the steroids they choose to take" and "designer steroids can be better than testosterone". So not only are you suddenly unable to say WHY fighters might choose designer steroids over synthetic test -- despite only a page ago saying they HAD to without the TUE -- but now you are saying they might even be better.

AGAIN, since you have failed repeatedly to provide ANY meaningful counterpoint:

TUE guys who want to cheat and non-TUE guys who want to cheat can use ALL the same PEDs, from synthetic test to "designer steroids". The only difference is TUE guys HAVE TO TAKE BLOOD TESTS.

5/24/13 12:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
orcus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/24/13 12:48 PM
Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 77974

I'll try to make it easier for your simple brain. 

There are four kinds of fighters:

  1. Rule-abiding guys without TUE
  2. Rule-abiding guys with TUE
  3. Cheaters with no TUE
  4. Cheaters with TUE
#1 are clean and have their normal level of test.
 
#2 are on TRT and have their test raised to normal levels.
 
#3 and #4 break the rules and take whatever illegal drugs they want, or legal drugs to whatever illegal degrees they want, to boost their levels beyond normal.
 
#3 has to pass only a urine test  on fight night that measures his ratio of test to epi.
 
#4 has to have his actual test level measured via blood test before the fight (in camp) and after the fight. He also has to take the same urine test. He is also under increased scrutiny from the commission, the media, and the fans.
 
Who is going to have the biggest unfair advantage? Who is most likely to get away with cheating? Try to use your brain.
5/24/13 12:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 19898
I believe, as usual, you are being intentionally obtuse in defense of your agenda. If you don't agree with my points that's fine orcus. Nothing anyone would offer up would change your mind anyway. The list of fighters/trainers/MMA journalists/and everyone else involved in the sport, who think trt is bullshit doesn't matter to you. You are either being paid to defend it, or just love to argue that much.

If there is nothing wrong with trt, and no chance to more easily abuse it with a TUE permission slip to roid, explain why SO MANY intelligent people in the MMA community are opposed to it.

Is it because they are stupid and you are just that much smarter than all of them? Phone Post
5/24/13 12:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 19899
Of course you now try and imply I am stupid and then proceed to try and "dumb it down" to only 4 possible types of fighters.

Just give it a rest.

It's 72 and sunny in the Rockies today. I'm gonna take my s2000 up to Echo Lake and go for a hike. Enjoy your shilling. Ill be back later to laugh about it, but really don't want to waste anymore time and energy debating with someone like you. There is no point. You're right orcus. The testing while on a TUE is super intense and constant, and fighter are surely only using their permission slip to roid to get back to "normal" for men their age....lol Phone Post
5/24/13 12:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
orcus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 77975

"If there is nothing wrong with trt, and no chance to more easily abuse it with a TUE permission slip to roid, explain why SO MANY intelligent people in the MMA community are opposed to it."

Why is it my job to explain their reasoning? It is up to THEM -- as it is up to YOU -- to explain why they are opposed to it.

Whether TRT is "wrong" is another issue entirely. Some people obviously feel athletes should be 100% natural (minus of course all their supplements, vitamins, legal medications, corrective surgeries, and superscience training methods), and thus someone with low test levels for whatever reason can go fuck themselves. Some of us want to see the best fights.

The bulk of THIS thread is 1) whether a rule-abiding guy with a TRT TUE has an unfair advantage or any advantage over "clean" fighters, and 2) whether a cheater with a TRT TUE is better able to cheat than a cheater without a TUE. The answer to both of those is "no" as far as I'm concerned and I've explained repeatedly why.

lol @ your desperately pathetic last-ditch effort, the universal refuse of those with no argument -- the appeal to authority. Once again failing to realize that it is a clear-cut fallacy and no argument at all.

5/24/13 1:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 19903
In 1) above you clearly try to avoid:
Vitor is not a rule abiding guy. He is a guy who is known to have roided in his career, via failed tests and obvious signs of roids.
He is a guy who has LIED about having the TUE in the first place until he was exposed.
He is a guy who so far, jas only been tested by a newly formed commission in his home country, and country riddled with government corruption.

Yes you can cop out with your "well he is following the rules he is required to" bullshit but we all see right through that. Phone Post
5/24/13 1:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 19904
fapout -
orcus - 

I'll try to make it easier for your simple brain. 

There are four kinds of fighters:

  1. Rule-abiding guys without TUE
  2. Rule-abiding guys with TUE
  3. Cheaters with no TUE
  4. Cheaters with TUE
#1 are clean and have their normal level of test.
 
#2 are on TRT and have their test raised to normal levels.
 
#3 and #4 break the rules and take whatever illegal drugs they want, or legal drugs to whatever illegal degrees they want, to boost their levels beyond normal.
 
#3 has to pass only a urine test  on fight night that measures his ratio of test to epi.
 
#4 has to have his actual test level measured via blood test before the fight (in camp) and after the fight. He also has to take the same urine test. He is also under increased scrutiny from the commission, the media, and the fans.
 
Who is going to have the biggest unfair advantage? Who is most likely to get away with cheating? Try to use your brain.

orcus- Don't even bother. That goof is just trolling you. Just take the high road.
Says the fool who posed no actual arguments this entire thread, and is interrupting an actual conversation on the topic to just call names. Phone Post
5/24/13 4:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
orcus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/24/13 4:26 PM
Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 77976
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  In 1) above you clearly try to avoid:
Vitor is not a rule abiding guy. He is a guy who is known to have roided in his career, via failed tests and obvious signs of roids.
He is a guy who has LIED about having the TUE in the first place until he was exposed.
He is a guy who so far, jas only been tested by a newly formed commission in his home country, and country riddled with government corruption.

Yes you can cop out with your "well he is following the rules he is required to" bullshit but we all see right through that. Phone Post

 

Jesus, how dense are you?

 

In your scenario, Vitor is #4 -- a cheater with a TUE. If he had no TUE, he would presumably still be a cheater, right? So he would have even MORE of an "unfair advantage" over the clean fighters, because he would take anything he wanted, whenever he wanted, and get his test to any level he wanted. Literally the ONLY thing he would have to worry about would be keeping his ratio under 4:1 in the post-fight urine test.

lol @ your post after post after post in thread after thread after thread, but you can NEVER explain why a cheater would choose to get a TUE rather than just cheat in secret as usual.

And lol @ dicktucking from all your "designer steroid" bullshit.

 

5/24/13 4:24 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
orcus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 77977

"He is a guy who has LIED about having the TUE in the first place until he was exposed."

When?

5/24/13 5:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
orcus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 77978

"fighter are surely only using their permission slip to roid to get back to "normal" for men their age....lol"

Fighters who want to cheat surely would seek to get a "permission slip" that doesn't allow them to cheat but DOES put them under more scrutiny and more frequent, more revealing tests....lol

5/24/13 7:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Arlovskis Chin
59 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/1/13
Posts: 167
I'm very impressed with LnPs patience. I dropped out of this thread a long time ago realising my opinion was not going to influence any others and vice versa. I think this is an issue that will divide people, and the literatures there for everyone to form their own opinion.
I feel asif TRT is not important on the forum anymore as its not a topic of discussion, it's just a set belief vs a set belief which. Is an argument with neither side emerging as the winner. Phone Post 3.0
5/24/13 7:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
DeuceDroppin
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/6/06
Posts: 8959
Orcus you have owned this idiot enough. Quit wasting your time. For fucks sake this poor idiot has resorted to bragging about driving a girl's car!! What did you upgrade from, a fucking Miata? Fiero? What a idiot you are. Phone Post
5/24/13 7:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
orcus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/1/03
Posts: 77979

" it's just a set belief vs a set belief which."

Only when you fail to back up your position with facts and logic.

5/24/13 8:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 19908
fapout -

 

 

 

 

lol @ you're dumb self voting me down OOOOOOooo

I do not EVER vote people down for these kind of posts. Fighter bashing and blatant trolling only. Just shows that others think you're being stupid enough to vote you down. I can't even vote from android Goofball. Phone Post
5/24/13 8:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 19909
orcus -

"He is a guy who has LIED about having the TUE in the first place until he was exposed."

When?

When he was asked about being on TRT before the ufc said he was. He said no. That's called lying. Phone Post
5/24/13 8:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 19910
orcus -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  In 1) above you clearly try to avoid:
Vitor is not a rule abiding guy. He is a guy who is known to have roided in his career, via failed tests and obvious signs of roids.
He is a guy who has LIED about having the TUE in the first place until he was exposed.
He is a guy who so far, jas only been tested by a newly formed commission in his home country, and country riddled with government corruption.

Yes you can cop out with your "well he is following the rules he is required to" bullshit but we all see right through that. Phone Post

 

Jesus, how dense are you?

 

In your scenario, Vitor is #4 -- a cheater with a TUE. If he had no TUE, he would presumably still be a cheater, right? So he would have even MORE of an "unfair advantage" over the clean fighters, because he would take anything he wanted, whenever he wanted, and get his test to any level he wanted. Literally the ONLY thing he would have to worry about would be keeping his ratio under 4:1 in the post-fight urine test.

lol @ your post after post after post in thread after thread after thread, but you can NEVER explain why a cheater would choose to get a TUE rather than just cheat in secret as usual.

And lol @ dicktucking from all your "designer steroid" bullshit.

 

I already explained it at least three times in this thread. You either block it out, ignore it, or just don't agree with me. There is no need to pretend I "NEVER" answered to that when I have, multiple times. Phone Post

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.