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UnderGround Forums >> lol @ "TRT Vitor is unfair!"


5/19/13 5:16 PM
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BlueDream
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Tiresias - 
BlueDream - Do a search for Dr Jeff Life. He's a guy i'd say hit his peak at 60.
"Hit his peak" in what sense? There is a lot of evidence that a broad range of measurable physical parameters decline after about thirty. It is safe to say that anyone who is "highly trained" in some arbitrarily agreed-upon sense at both the age of 25, and the age of 55 is going to have, say, a higher vertical leap at 25 than 55. Do you agree with this or not? Phone Post

Since you obv didn't spend the time to look up what I said, I"m not going to waste my time answering your questions because you won't actually listen anyway.
5/19/13 5:22 PM
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UGCTT_nightkap
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Ramsey - He doesn't deserve a TRT exemption for the simple fact that he was caught cheating, plain and simple. Does it dawn on anybody else that his natural levels may be low because of past abuse of P.E.D's?
Yep Phone Post
5/19/13 5:32 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus -

" Then he fought at MW for a few years where the testing was much more frequent, and he looked softer."

So he was just as big and able to get just as many first round KOs off the stuff, but you're making this big stink because he is looks leaner on TRT?

 

He was clearly not just as big. He was not as fast. He was not as powerful. The last two are my opinions based on watching the fights so don't bother trying to beak the comment down semantically. Phone Post
5/19/13 5:33 PM
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orcus
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UGCTT_nightkap - 
Ramsey - He doesn't deserve a TRT exemption for the simple fact that he was caught cheating, plain and simple. Does it dawn on anybody else that his natural levels may be low because of past abuse of P.E.D's?
Yep Phone Post

He only tested positive once. Since everyone seems keen on believing that all their favorite fighters who never tested positive must be clean, obviously Vitor must have only juiced that one time. That wouldn't be enough to permanently lower his test levels.

5/19/13 5:36 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/19/13 5:37 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
orcus -

" Then he fought at MW for a few years where the testing was much more frequent, and he looked softer."

So he was just as big and able to get just as many first round KOs off the stuff, but you're making this big stink because he is looks leaner on TRT?

 

He was clearly not just as big. He was not as fast. He was not as powerful. The last two are my opinions based on watching the fights so don't bother trying to beak the comment down semantically. Phone Post

 

He looks just as big to me.

 

 

 

...he weighed 206 the day of the Anthony Johnson fight, just how much bigger do you think he was last night?

Not as powerful? He has been smashing guys with quick KOs for the last several years during which he was "soft". And in none of these recent fights has he been wrestling guys or manhandling them, it's been pure striking, so there's nothing to base "strength" claims on.

5/19/13 5:37 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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BlueDream -
Ramsey - If you need that shit and you are under 40, maybe MMA is just not your thing.

I would argue if you have problem with TRT (that is correctly monitored) being in MMa, then maybe you're not a MMA fan.

I'd kill to see BJ, Fedor, and others still fighting w/ the help of TRT.
It is an interesting moral debate when you narrow it down to trt that is very closely monitored all year. On one side there is the fan that wants to see and enjoy a fighter's skills in the cage as pong as possible. Then there is the side that sees it as an unfair advantage. As fighters age naturally what they lose in speed explosiveness and cardio they gain in experience wisdom and skill development. It can be argued unfair that the younger fighters who cannot have the experience wisdom and skill development yet are at a disadvantage over the older fighters who use synthetic means to level their speed explosiveness and cardio.

I love BJ Fedor etc. And would love to see them fight another decade. I'm just pointing out both sides of the debate. Phone Post
5/19/13 5:40 PM
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orcus
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" It can be argued unfair that the younger fighters who cannot have the experience wisdom and skill development yet are at a disadvantage over the older fighters who use synthetic means to level their speed explosiveness and cardio. "

Everything about fighting is unfair. Was it unfair for Jon Jones to fight guys his age because he fought so much in the first two years of his career and thus had the same youthful speed and strength they did, but more experience?

Why is it a problem if fighters with more experience are better than younger, greener ones?

5/19/13 5:42 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
orcus -

" Then he fought at MW for a few years where the testing was much more frequent, and he looked softer."

So he was just as big and able to get just as many first round KOs off the stuff, but you're making this big stink because he is looks leaner on TRT?

 

He was clearly not just as big. He was not as fast. He was not as powerful. The last two are my opinions based on watching the fights so don't bother trying to beak the comment down semantically. Phone Post

 

He looks just as big to me.

 

 

 

...he weighed 206 the day of the Anthony Johnson fight, just how much bigger do you think he was last night?

Not as powerful? He has been smashing guys with quick KOs for the last several years during which he was "soft". And in none of these recent fights has he been wrestling guys or manhandling them, it's been pure striking, so there's nothing to base "strength" claims on.

Yes I know your little games with the perfect pictures at the perfect angles. I'm on my phone in the mountains or I could find you the other photos that fit my side of the argument.

Anyone being objective can see the difference between the vitor that fought around the Anderson fight, and Uber-Vitor of now.

It doesn't even need to be exact lbs to mean bigger. He is clearly more shredded and has more functional mass than back then.

Goku ahead and try and break what I say down on semantics, and post more of your little photos that make it appear to not be true. Those who have actually watched all his fights and paid close attention to him see what I see.

There is a reason every one of his last three fights he has said 'I feel the strongest/best I have ever felt.' Phone Post
5/19/13 5:44 PM
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BlueDream
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
BlueDream -
Ramsey - If you need that shit and you are under 40, maybe MMA is just not your thing.

I would argue if you have problem with TRT (that is correctly monitored) being in MMa, then maybe you're not a MMA fan.

I'd kill to see BJ, Fedor, and others still fighting w/ the help of TRT.
It is an interesting moral debate when you narrow it down to trt that is very closely monitored all year. On one side there is the fan that wants to see and enjoy a fighter's skills in the cage as pong as possible. Then there is the side that sees it as an unfair advantage. As fighters age naturally what they lose in speed explosiveness and cardio they gain in experience wisdom and skill development. It can be argued unfair that the younger fighters who cannot have the experience wisdom and skill development yet are at a disadvantage over the older fighters who use synthetic means to level their speed explosiveness and cardio.

I love BJ Fedor etc. And would love to see them fight another decade. I'm just pointing out both sides of the debate. Phone Post

I agree w/ this. My thought is that young fighters now will have the same advantage when they age as well as any other diet,health, or science advances that are made in that time period. I for one look forward to a 40 year old Jon Jones still fighting.
5/19/13 5:44 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus -

" It can be argued unfair that the younger fighters who cannot have the experience wisdom and skill development yet are at a disadvantage over the older fighters who use synthetic means to level their speed explosiveness and cardio. "

Everything about fighting is unfair. Was it unfair for Jon Jones to fight guys his age because he fought so much in the first two years of his career and thus had the same youthful speed and strength they did, but more experience?

Why is it a problem if fighters with more experience are better than younger, greener ones?

There is generally a sliding curve as a fighter ages. Where the speed/explosiveness/cardio starts to decline, as the skill level experience and knowledge all increase.

TRT allows the older fighters to defy that curve in their favor where younger fighters cannot.

Simple concept if you don't have an agenda. Phone Post
5/19/13 5:48 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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BlueDream -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
BlueDream -
Ramsey - If you need that shit and you are under 40, maybe MMA is just not your thing.

I would argue if you have problem with TRT (that is correctly monitored) being in MMa, then maybe you're not a MMA fan.

I'd kill to see BJ, Fedor, and others still fighting w/ the help of TRT.
It is an interesting moral debate when you narrow it down to trt that is very closely monitored all year. On one side there is the fan that wants to see and enjoy a fighter's skills in the cage as pong as possible. Then there is the side that sees it as an unfair advantage. As fighters age naturally what they lose in speed explosiveness and cardio they gain in experience wisdom and skill development. It can be argued unfair that the younger fighters who cannot have the experience wisdom and skill development yet are at a disadvantage over the older fighters who use synthetic means to level their speed explosiveness and cardio.

I love BJ Fedor etc. And would love to see them fight another decade. I'm just pointing out both sides of the debate. Phone Post

I agree w/ this. My thought is that young fighters now will have the same advantage when they age as well as any other diet,health, or science advances that are made in that time period. I for one look forward to a 40 year old Jon Jones still fighting.
As a fan a very large part of me would love closely and accurately monitored trt. Right now I see it as not nearly closely regulated enough, and a part of me still has a problem with fairness of the older more experienced and skilled fighters getting to upset the natural scales of youth vs wisdom in MMA. In honor of fairness, a part of me feels the older wiser more skilled fighters should have to naturally lose their speed explosiveness and cardio to keep things balanced.

I'm also very stoned right now so I am a little more free minded than normal. :-) Phone Post
5/19/13 5:50 PM
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D241
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orcus-you seem to make some points but as usual, I"m having a hard time seeing your specific stance on this issue.
 
On one hand you're defending Vitor, on the other hand, you're chastizing Dan Henderson.
 
Where do you stand on this issue?
 
Do you like both Vitor and Dan and are okay with their TRT use?
Do you dislike both Vitor and Dan because of their TRT use?
 
Or is this issue another orcus special where your stance can go two ways ignoring points/logic of why you feel differently/yet the same?
5/19/13 5:57 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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I think he is just using the overall love and praise Dan gets here as an example. I don't really think he was voicing his opinion on Dan particularly. Phone Post
5/19/13 5:59 PM
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BlueDream
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
BlueDream -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
BlueDream -
Ramsey - If you need that shit and you are under 40, maybe MMA is just not your thing.

I would argue if you have problem with TRT (that is correctly monitored) being in MMa, then maybe you're not a MMA fan.

I'd kill to see BJ, Fedor, and others still fighting w/ the help of TRT.
It is an interesting moral debate when you narrow it down to trt that is very closely monitored all year. On one side there is the fan that wants to see and enjoy a fighter's skills in the cage as pong as possible. Then there is the side that sees it as an unfair advantage. As fighters age naturally what they lose in speed explosiveness and cardio they gain in experience wisdom and skill development. It can be argued unfair that the younger fighters who cannot have the experience wisdom and skill development yet are at a disadvantage over the older fighters who use synthetic means to level their speed explosiveness and cardio.

I love BJ Fedor etc. And would love to see them fight another decade. I'm just pointing out both sides of the debate. Phone Post

I agree w/ this. My thought is that young fighters now will have the same advantage when they age as well as any other diet,health, or science advances that are made in that time period. I for one look forward to a 40 year old Jon Jones still fighting.
As a fan a very large part of me would love closely and accurately monitored trt. Right now I see it as not nearly closely regulated enough, and a part of me still has a problem with fairness of the older more experienced and skilled fighters getting to upset the natural scales of youth vs wisdom in MMA. In honor of fairness, a part of me feels the older wiser more skilled fighters should have to naturally lose their speed explosiveness and cardio to keep things balanced.

I'm also very stoned right now so I am a little more free minded than normal. :-) Phone Post

I don't see trt giving a fighter anything extra from what they already have. So I guess I view it more as lengthing their fighting lifespan thus giving us fans more potential epic matchups.

5/19/13 6:13 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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It is giving them something their body cannot naturally give them with diet or supplements...I guess we just have to agree to disagree on that part. Phone Post
5/19/13 6:16 PM
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TheRealMrBeefy
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -
UGPTT_Rear Naked Chode - If you don't think Vitor should be allowed to get a tue, then you should also be against Chael getting a tue since chael failed a drug test with a 17-1 ratio without being approved for a tue.
Fuck yes it is a JOKE that Nevada would allow Sonnen a TUE after the failed tests in California and the blatant LIES he told during his hearings.

We all know zuffa and the NSAC had some talks (and probably some exchanges of other things) to get Kizer to suddenly ignore what happened in the last and grant Sonnen a TUE.

Total bullshit. Phone Post
What's funny about this post is Anderson had T-bomb in his house - I saw it in that cribs special that Anderson did. I wouldn't be surprised if Anderson takes test - and there isnt anything wrong with it if he did. Then you would probably change your tone from being a whiney crybaby.

I wish people would stop whining about the fact that Vitor is on TRT - its legal, at least for the time being it is. Phone Post
5/19/13 6:21 PM
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thefink
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Does TRT make you kick better? Cause vitor is benefitting from it if it does Phone Post 3.0
5/19/13 6:29 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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TheRealMrBeefy -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -
UGPTT_Rear Naked Chode - If you don't think Vitor should be allowed to get a tue, then you should also be against Chael getting a tue since chael failed a drug test with a 17-1 ratio without being approved for a tue.
Fuck yes it is a JOKE that Nevada would allow Sonnen a TUE after the failed tests in California and the blatant LIES he told during his hearings.

We all know zuffa and the NSAC had some talks (and probably some exchanges of other things) to get Kizer to suddenly ignore what happened in the last and grant Sonnen a TUE.

Total bullshit. Phone Post
What's funny about this post is Anderson had T-bomb in his house - I saw it in that cribs special that Anderson did. I wouldn't be surprised if Anderson takes test - and there isnt anything wrong with it if he did. Then you would probably change your tone from being a whiney crybaby.

I wish people would stop whining about the fact that Vitor is on TRT - its legal, at least for the time being it is. Phone Post
You saw syringes on a shelf along with bags of mnm's. That's called a diebetic child in his family.

You also saw a natural and legal testosterone booster on his kitchen table.

If Anderson were on trt he would have an exemption and we would know about it. He fights in Nevada regularly. Phone Post
5/19/13 6:30 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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thefink - Does TRT make you kick better? Cause vitor is benefitting from it if it does Phone Post 3.0
It certainly gives you the ability to develop all skills at a much faster pace. So yes, indirectly trt did help him with that kick. Without trt he sourly not have been able to train as hard and as long as he did. Phone Post
5/19/13 7:24 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/19/13 7:30 PM
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"Anyone being objective can see the difference between the vitor that fought around the Anderson fight, and Uber-Vitor of now."

So you're picking one fight and ignoring others pre-TRT? And wouldn't uber-Vitor be the one who was roiding like crazy with little or no testing whatsoever? You know, the one who was less lean than the one on the more regulated, modern TRT of today (as though it's more about diet and regimen than testosterone level), and NOT knocking guys out left and right?

"TRT allows the older fighters to defy that curve in their favor where younger fighters cannot."

...and? So what? Is there some reason why you are fixated on some arbitrary point at which younger fighters and older fighters' abilities meet and cross over each others'? Just like now, we say a guy lost the big fight because he's still too green and needs more experience. Why is it bad for the older, more experienced fighters to be better than the younger ones? Why is this a situation you want to prevent? 

5/19/13 7:29 PM
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orcus
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D241 - 
orcus-you seem to make some points but as usual, I"m having a hard time seeing your specific stance on this issue.
 
On one hand you're defending Vitor, on the other hand, you're chastizing Dan Henderson.
 
Where do you stand on this issue?
 
Do you like both Vitor and Dan and are okay with their TRT use?
Do you dislike both Vitor and Dan because of their TRT use?
 
Or is this issue another orcus special where your stance can go two ways ignoring points/logic of why you feel differently/yet the same?

I like Dan and don't particularly like Vitor. I think it's stupid for people to make 90 threads about Vitor using TRT after every win, while Dan is universally beloved despite being a TRTer as well. 

I want good fights. I want my favorite fighters to fight well as long as they can and as long as they want to. I want fewer training injuries and faster, more conditioned fighters. If a guy has low testosterone, then by all means, use TRT to get it back up to where it should be. 

In all likelihood, everyone's favorite fighter is using PEDs. I think it's absurd to save the outrage for the ones (or in this case just one or two particular ones) who actually publicly say what they're using and subject themselves to additional scrutiny and testing. The idea that this is an unfair advantage over the rest, who simply use whatever they want, whenever they want, to whatever extent they want, as long as they test clean on fight night, is baffling to me.

I also dislike the stubbornly ignorant resistance to progress. In a few years people will look back and marvel over how moronic people were for NOT WANTING medicine that allows them to feel (and perform) far better for far longer. I mean how stupid is that? You see old dudes like Randy and Stallone and Ferrigno and whoever who look and feel fantastic and you say "fuck that, we're 'supposed' to get old and crippled and depressed."

5/19/13 7:31 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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I'm not ignoring other pre trt. You just want to go far enough back pre-trt to the times he was not far removed from being BUSTED FOR STEROIDS.

Around the time testing started getting stricter, and he started fighting in the UFC again, he got noticeably softer. We don't know 100% when he started this recent run of legal juicing, because he was LYING when asked (until the ufc told the truth recently). We do know what we can see from back around his return to the ufc vs now.

You're so transparent orcus. I hope they don't pay you much... Phone Post
5/19/13 7:33 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus -
D241 - 
orcus-you seem to make some points but as usual, I"m having a hard time seeing your specific stance on this issue.
 
On one hand you're defending Vitor, on the other hand, you're chastizing Dan Henderson.
 
Where do you stand on this issue?
 
Do you like both Vitor and Dan and are okay with their TRT use?
Do you dislike both Vitor and Dan because of their TRT use?
 
Or is this issue another orcus special where your stance can go two ways ignoring points/logic of why you feel differently/yet the same?

I like Dan and don't particularly like Vitor. I think it's stupid for people to make 90 threads about Vitor using TRT after every win, while Dan is universally beloved despite being a TRTer as well. 

I want good fights. I want my favorite fighters to fight well as long as they can and as long as they want to. I want fewer training injuries and faster, more conditioned fighters. If a guy has low testosterone, then by all means, use TRT to get it back up to where it should be. 

In all likelihood, everyone's favorite fighter is using PEDs. I think it's absurd to save the outrage for the ones (or in this case just one or two particular ones) who actually publicly say what they're using and subject themselves to additional scrutiny and testing. The idea that this is an unfair advantage over the rest, who simply use whatever they want, whenever they want, to whatever extent they want, as long as they test clean on fight night, is baffling to me.

I also dislike the stubbornly ignorant resistance to progress. In a few years people will look back and marvel over how moronic people were for NOT WANTING medicine that allows them to feel (and perform) far better for far longer. I mean how stupid is that? You see old dudes like Randy and Stallone and Ferrigno and whoever who look and feel fantastic and you say "fuck that, we're 'supposed' to get old and crippled and depressed."

Stop pretending that not wanting fighters who beat the shit out of eachother to be on juice is the same as not wanting medical progress for humanity. Ridiculous. Phone Post
5/19/13 7:37 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/19/13 7:37 PM
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"Stop pretending that not wanting fighters who beat the shit out of eachother to be on juice is the same as not wanting medical progress for humanity."

Stop pretending that anyone who wants to watch guys who put their bodies through hell 6 days a week so that they can smash each other's skulls with fists, chins, elbows, and knees is sincerely concerned about health risks. Is everyone allowed to improve themselves except our pro athletes? Is your goal a society where the average citizen is maxed out on supplements and medical aids and the athletes are weaker, more decrepit "natural" versions?

And is your problem with using artificial means to get levels back to normal, or not? Why is it okay for a young man with 800 test to smash his opponent's head but not an old guy who has his artificially raised to that level (or lower)? Is one safer than the other? And if the problem is just with cranking everything to the max, then that's just a general juicing complaint and has nothing to do with TRT exemptions, which are NOT permission to blast everything through the roof.

5/19/13 7:48 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/19/13 7:48 PM
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"I'm not ignoring other pre trt. You just want to go far enough back pre-trt to the times he was not far removed from being BUSTED FOR STEROIDS."

I posted pics from the Akiyama fight. That was in 2011 and AFTER he fought Anderson.

"We don't know 100% when he started this recent run of legal juicing, because he was LYING when asked"

Well everyone keeps complaining that he is fighting in Brazil because he can't get a TUE anywhere else, and the Akiyama fight was in Philly.

Again, is this a significantly softer, smaller guy? I think he's leaner now but not bigger. And leaner is typically more to do with diet than anything else. And again, his actual fight results are no different than before.

 


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