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UnderGround Forums >> lol @ "TRT Vitor is unfair!"


5/19/13 8:10 PM
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orcus
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Sure man. Let's pretend that training for, and competing in, mixed martial arts isn't far, far, FAR more dangerous and more proven to have long-term negative health effects than using a doctor prescribed testosterone replacement treatment -- something that is done exactly because it's BENEFICIAL.

Maybe you can find some doctors who will say no one should get TRT, but many people would benefit from competing in combat sports? Good luck with that.

5/19/13 8:10 PM
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Wasa-B
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Bottom line, its absoultely true that Chael, Mir, Dan seem to get passes on this but Vitor somehow does not. That is a little puzzling.
5/19/13 8:14 PM
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BlueDream
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Don't forget Rampage
5/19/13 8:23 PM
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D241
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orcus - 
D241 - 
orcus-you seem to make some points but as usual, I"m having a hard time seeing your specific stance on this issue.
 
On one hand you're defending Vitor, on the other hand, you're chastizing Dan Henderson.
 
Where do you stand on this issue?
 
Do you like both Vitor and Dan and are okay with their TRT use?
Do you dislike both Vitor and Dan because of their TRT use?
 
Or is this issue another orcus special where your stance can go two ways ignoring points/logic of why you feel differently/yet the same?

I like Dan and don't particularly like Vitor. I think it's stupid for people to make 90 threads about Vitor using TRT after every win, while Dan is universally beloved despite being a TRTer as well. 

I want good fights. I want my favorite fighters to fight well as long as they can and as long as they want to. I want fewer training injuries and faster, more conditioned fighters. If a guy has low testosterone, then by all means, use TRT to get it back up to where it should be. 

In all likelihood, everyone's favorite fighter is using PEDs. I think it's absurd to save the outrage for the ones (or in this case just one or two particular ones) who actually publicly say what they're using and subject themselves to additional scrutiny and testing. The idea that this is an unfair advantage over the rest, who simply use whatever they want, whenever they want, to whatever extent they want, as long as they test clean on fight night, is baffling to me.

I also dislike the stubbornly ignorant resistance to progress. In a few years people will look back and marvel over how moronic people were for NOT WANTING medicine that allows them to feel (and perform) far better for far longer. I mean how stupid is that? You see old dudes like Randy and Stallone and Ferrigno and whoever who look and feel fantastic and you say "fuck that, we're 'supposed' to get old and crippled and depressed."


You quoted me but bold everyone else, I feel special.

 

Well orcus, that was a solid answer. I haven't been vocal about trt because I have mixed feelings. It's something I've been on the wall for.

 

On one hand, it's not fair if fighters have cheated using peds and currently have low t as a side affect. It's as if they got away with cheating and can use a loophole to negate the side effect. 

Fighters who don't have low T can get on trt to be at the maximum allowed levels. While that may be within the rules, some people/fighters may think that's morally wrong, or a risky they don't want to take. Meaning they don't want to risk taking something that makes their Testosterone go higher with the side affect that when they get off, their Testosterone is lower than when initially getting on trt.

 

On the other hand, fighters like Dan Henderson, Vitor Belfort, etc..., can stay at a high level healthwise that translates to high performances in the cage. That is something I do recognize and can appreciate, but I don't like talking on this issue because I acknowledge both the pro's and cons and feel like I have to take a side.

 

I'll say where it is right now, there are loopholes and a gray area, there may be a slight advantage for trt, but the significance of the advantage can't be measured in terms of performance, it's all opinon and speculation.

 

I don't know what to think so I'll remain open to logical points from both ends. Thanks for your feedback I'll follow this thread since there are far too many trt threads to read them all.

5/19/13 8:23 PM
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Tommy V
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this is all funny. Juiced fights perform better bottom line lol
5/19/13 8:29 PM
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orcus
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"On one hand, it's not fair if fighters have cheated using peds and currently have low t as a side affect. It's as if they got away with cheating and can use a loophole to negate the side effect. "

Whereas 99% of other fighters got away with cheating and continue to cheat with no one the wiser.

"While that may be within the rules, some people/fighters may think that's morally wrong, or a risky they don't want to take. Meaning they don't want to risk taking something that makes their Testosterone go higher with the side affect that when they get off, their Testosterone is lower than when initially getting on trt."

Sure, but high level athletics are all about sacrifice. You can't hang with the top guys in any sport without giving up time with your family and putting your body through all kinds of hell that it will pay for the rest of your life. Requiring TRT later (something that, again, I think pretty much everyone will be doing anyway as the benefits become more well known) is a relatively minor sacrifice compared to those.

 

5/19/13 8:29 PM
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BlueDream
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So if a guy made a mistake at a young age and took roids and now has messed up test levels he should never be able to fight again??? This seems extreme to me...Plenty of fighters have been in jail for far worse crimes, it's just those mistakes didn't wreck their bodies....
5/19/13 8:31 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/19/13 8:32 PM
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BlueDream - So if a guy made a mistake at a young age and took roids and now has messed up test levels he should never be able to fight again??? This seems extreme to me...Plenty of fighters have been in jail for far worse crimes, it's just those mistakes didn't wreck their bodies....

 

lol, exactly.

 

Also, as for Vitor specifically:

The Nevada State Athletic Commission eventually received a statement from Dr. Greco stating that he did give Belfort post surgical [surgery to repair torn knee meniscus] injections containing testosterone.[8] While conceding that Belfort may have not known about the testosterone, the NSAC explained that even if Belfort was given injections by a medical practictioner who did not inform him that they contained anabolic steroids, it would still be a violation of the banned substances policy.

5/19/13 8:32 PM
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BlueDream
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Plus the ones we know about taking roids are the people who got caught and punished...hello double punishment!!
5/19/13 8:55 PM
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Arlovskis Chin
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -
TheRealMrBeefy -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -
UGPTT_Rear Naked Chode - If you don't think Vitor should be allowed to get a tue, then you should also be against Chael getting a tue since chael failed a drug test with a 17-1 ratio without being approved for a tue.
Fuck yes it is a JOKE that Nevada would allow Sonnen a TUE after the failed tests in California and the blatant LIES he told during his hearings.

We all know zuffa and the NSAC had some talks (and probably some exchanges of other things) to get Kizer to suddenly ignore what happened in the last and grant Sonnen a TUE.

Total bullshit. Phone Post
What's funny about this post is Anderson had T-bomb in his house - I saw it in that cribs special that Anderson did. I wouldn't be surprised if Anderson takes test - and there isnt anything wrong with it if he did. Then you would probably change your tone from being a whiney crybaby.

I wish people would stop whining about the fact that Vitor is on TRT - its legal, at least for the time being it is. Phone Post
You saw syringes on a shelf along with bags of mnm's. That's called a diebetic child in his family.

You also saw a natural and legal testosterone booster on his kitchen table.

If Anderson were on trt he would have an exemption and we would know about it. He fights in Nevada regularly. Phone Post
I completely agree with you but as he hasn't tested positive for PEDs he's going to be allowed to fight in Nevada it's not a blanket TRT ban. Phone Post 3.0
5/19/13 9:25 PM
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BlueDream
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MMA Lives Here - 
orcus -
BlueDream - So if a guy made a mistake at a young age and took roids and now has messed up test levels he should never be able to fight again??? This seems extreme to me...Plenty of fighters have been in jail for far worse crimes, it's just those mistakes didn't wreck their bodies....

 

lol, exactly.

 

Also, as for Vitor specifically:

The Nevada State Athletic Commission eventually received a statement from Dr. Greco stating that he did give Belfort post surgical [surgery to repair torn knee meniscus] injections containing testosterone.[8] While conceding that Belfort may have not known about the testosterone, the NSAC explained that even if Belfort was given injections by a medical practictioner who did not inform him that they contained anabolic steroids, it would still be a violation of the banned substances policy.

No no, BlueDream - he can fight again. Absolutely he can.

Who's saying that person wouldn't be able to fight again? Phone Post

By not allowing him a TUE you're saying that since you made a previous mistake you have to play again an uneven playing field, even though you've already served your punishment.

I get personal responsibility, but I don't think most of these guys understood what they were doing to their body. I see no reason to punish them for life. Maybe some do, to each their own.
5/19/13 9:29 PM
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BlueDream
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What's really sad is we have fighters like Uncle Creepy who legit need trt and you fuckers treat it like it's a rape conviction.
5/19/13 9:52 PM
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azarali
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how long has vitor been on trt? he's been on a roll since '07, especially since dropping to middleweight...
5/19/13 9:56 PM
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1armedScissor
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Does he get to do trt because his levels are less than other men his age? Or because they are less than men half his age? If it's because his levels are lower than men his age then there is a good chance is because he's been abusing peds for some time. Is its the other is because that's how it's supposed to be. Phone Post
5/19/13 9:58 PM
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smellslikefishtasteslikechicken
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Trt to the chin with an exceptionally placed heel hook Phone Post 3.0
5/19/13 9:59 PM
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smellslikefishtasteslikechicken
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Trt or not it wouldn't have mattered Phone Post 3.0
5/19/13 10:13 PM
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1armedScissor
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smellslikefishtasteslikechicken - Trt or not it wouldn't have mattered Phone Post 3.0
Lol. Peds allow you to recover faster. This they allow you to train more often. The more you train the better your skills become. Of course it fucking matters. Phone Post
5/19/13 10:33 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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Jack Carter - 
BlueDream -
Jack Carter - Vitor is passed his prime yet he is better than ever.

Steroids don't play a role in that, no way Phone Post 3.0

So when was Randy's prime??? How can one know when their prime is?
Randy's physical prime was around the same as everyone else. TRT helped him excel well into his 40's Phone Post 3.0

people don't understand the difference between physical prime and competitive prime. Randy's physical prime was 20s like everyone else, he got into MMA in his 30s and the rapid technical improvements made him a better fighter even though his athletic ability continued to decline.
5/19/13 10:36 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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Tiresias - 
BlueDream -
Arlovskis Chin - 
BlueDream - "but his body has significantly changed (past a man's prime years, no less)."

How do you know when a mans prime is? I think with improved dietary understanding and better supplementation it would be natural to assume mans prime will be later in life.
Also this is a silly argument it is clear he is not natural regardless of age. Phone Post 3.0

So you're admitting you have no idea when a man prime is and this is all based on conjecture.
I believe it has been established that physical peak is around 27 years old. Phone Post

physical peak is really early 20s. 27 is the sweet spot where most athletes are combine experience and physical prowess.
5/19/13 10:39 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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Edited: 05/19/13 10:45 PM
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BlueDream - So if a guy made a mistake at a young age and took roids and now has messed up test levels he should never be able to fight again??? This seems extreme to me...Plenty of fighters have been in jail for far worse
that is just bullshit though. I don't really care if these guys are roiding but the notion that they get permanent shutdown after roiding a few times is unlikely to say the least.
5/20/13 11:14 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus -
BlueDream - So if a guy made a mistake at a young age and took roids and now has messed up test levels he should never be able to fight again??? This seems extreme to me...Plenty of fighters have been in jail for far worse crimes, it's just those mistakes didn't wreck their bodies....

 

lol, exactly.

 

Also, as for Vitor specifically:

The Nevada State Athletic Commission eventually received a statement from Dr. Greco stating that he did give Belfort post surgical [surgery to repair torn knee meniscus] injections containing testosterone.[8] While conceding that Belfort may have not known about the testosterone, the NSAC explained that even if Belfort was given injections by a medical practictioner who did not inform him that they contained anabolic steroids, it would still be a violation of the banned substances policy.

Ahhh the same defense as overeem. Lmfao. Phone Post
5/20/13 11:16 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Arlovskis Chin -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -
TheRealMrBeefy -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -
UGPTT_Rear Naked Chode - If you don't think Vitor should be allowed to get a tue, then you should also be against Chael getting a tue since chael failed a drug test with a 17-1 ratio without being approved for a tue.
Fuck yes it is a JOKE that Nevada would allow Sonnen a TUE after the failed tests in California and the blatant LIES he told during his hearings.

We all know zuffa and the NSAC had some talks (and probably some exchanges of other things) to get Kizer to suddenly ignore what happened in the last and grant Sonnen a TUE.

Total bullshit. Phone Post
What's funny about this post is Anderson had T-bomb in his house - I saw it in that cribs special that Anderson did. I wouldn't be surprised if Anderson takes test - and there isnt anything wrong with it if he did. Then you would probably change your tone from being a whiney crybaby.

I wish people would stop whining about the fact that Vitor is on TRT - its legal, at least for the time being it is. Phone Post
You saw syringes on a shelf along with bags of mnm's. That's called a diebetic child in his family.

You also saw a natural and legal testosterone booster on his kitchen table.

If Anderson were on trt he would have an exemption and we would know about it. He fights in Nevada regularly. Phone Post
I completely agree with you but as he hasn't tested positive for PEDs he's going to be allowed to fight in Nevada it's not a blanket TRT ban. Phone Post 3.0
I never said or implied otherwise. Of course he would be granted one if he requested it. Phone Post
5/20/13 11:19 AM
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deadlyonetwo3
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Edited: 05/20/13 11:19 AM
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Also, since this shit is out of control. LET'S CLEAR SOMETHING UP ABOUT THE STEROID TEST THAT HE FAILED.

Just like COUNTLESS others, it was an OVER THE COUNTER product that caused the fail or DOCTORS treating an injury. Doesn't that sound super familiar?  You guys are HATERS, Critics, and literally disgusting at this point.  GIVE THE GUY A FRICKING BREAK.

 

Steroid controversy

At Pride 32: The Real Deal on October 21, 2006, Belfort lost a unanimous decision to Pride Welterweight Champion Dan Henderson. After the fight, Belfort tested positive for an illegal substance, 4-hydroxytestosterone.[7] In his defense, Belfort argued that he purchased an over the counter supplement which contained 4-Hydroxytestosterone. Belfort also explained that he may have received 4-Hydroxytestosterone as the result of rehabilitative injections given to him by Brazilian endocrinologist Dr. Rodrigo M. Greco after his surgery to repair a torn meniscus in his knee in the summer of 2006. The Nevada State Athletic Commission eventually received a statement from Dr. Greco stating that he did give Belfort post surgical injections containing testosterone.[8] While conceding that Belfort may have not known about the testosterone, the NSAC explained that even if Belfort was given injections by a medical practictioner who did not inform him that they contained anabolic steroids, it would still be a violation of the banned substances policy. On December 21, 2006 he was suspended for nine months from the date of the hearing and fined $10,000.

5/20/13 11:21 AM
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deadlyonetwo3
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Post Surgical injections containing STEROIDS to treat a meniscus injury in 2006.  WHAT A CHEATER blah blah I guess now TRT only further proves it!!! WOW!!! We're all rocket scientists!  If I could throw up online I would lol.

This hate is OUT OF CONTROL.

5/20/13 11:34 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Yes....a fighter claims he "might" have injected a steroid without knowing what he was injecting himself with....yeah.

You probably believed chael thought he had a TUE because his manager claimed to have called someone, and overeem also injected things without knowing what they were....lmfao Phone Post

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