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UnderGround Forums >> lol @ "TRT Vitor is unfair!"


5/20/13 10:24 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus - 
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
orcus - 
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
orcus - 

Only way Anderson could have KO'd Vitor with that kick Seagal taught him is if he practiced it an extraordinary amount of times, fueled by roids.


Now you've actually gone full retard. Congrats.


"It sure didn't teach him that kick.......but how much harder and longer he was able to drill/train/spar with the help if the roids certainly could have had an impact on that kick landing and winning him that fight."

 

--- LnP Ninja


What kind of idiotic response is that?

 

Is Anderson on TRT? Has he tested positive for steroids? You're really not good at this.


Wait, I thought you put zero credence in AC/Zuffa testing? You don't believe that open TRT users who provide medical documentation of their treatment are adhering to regulations, why do you believe it of anyone else? 

What is this bizarro logic by which you conclude that the guys who come forward and apply for exemptions and submit medical documentation are the ones who have something to hide?


This shouldn't be hard to grasp if you don't have an agenda:

Vitor has tested positive for roids in the past.

Vitor now has a permission slip to take more steroids with a very small amount of blood testing from a commission that is newly formed in a country full of corruption on the government level.

It's not bizarro logic to think that the current testing and regulating of TRT "patients", who want to fight in combat sports, is a joke.

It's also not bizarro of me to think that other fighters who have NEVER had any issues with steroids should be held to the same standards as known abusers.

 

LMFAO@ you trying to call it "zuffa" testing. Zuffa and Dana CLAIMED they were going to "test the shit out of fighters who are on TRT"......yet one of the FIRST chances they have to back up that claim and Ratner comes out and says they didn't do a DAMN thing to test Vitor, and passed the buck off to the Brazil Commission.

5/20/13 10:28 PM
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SOO72
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Idgetmyasskicked - I always disagree with Orcus. Except this time. He has spoken nothing but truth this entire thread. To me there is no real argument against his points.

Nail on head.

5/20/13 10:41 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/20/13 10:47 PM
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"LMFAO@ you trying to call it "zuffa" testing. Zuffa and Dana CLAIMED they were going to "test the shit out of fighters who are on TRT"......yet one of the FIRST chances they have to back up that claim and Ratner comes out and says they didn't do a DAMN thing to test Vitor, and passed the buck off to the Brazil Commission."

I'm not calling it Zuffa testing. I'm saying you would dismiss Zuffa testing, you dismiss AC testing, yet you seem very confident that Anderson and other fighters are PED-free because they haven't failed tests administered by those inept, corrupt organizations whose tests you don't find credible.

Wouldn't the athletic commission doing the testing be preferable to you anyway? I'm sure if Zuffa did it you would say they would just squash the results if they were positive.

"It's not bizarro logic to think that the current testing and regulating of TRT "patients", who want to fight in combat sports, is a joke."

It's more testing and regulation than anyone NOT applying for a TUE is subject to. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? There is NOTHING stopping ANY fighter from doing everything a TUE guy does, and more, and it will be FAR easier for them to get away with it.

"It's also not bizarro of me to think that other fighters who have NEVER had any issues with steroids should be held to the same standards as known abusers."

Are you so naive as to think the only incidences of roid use in MMA are the few dozen positive tests? Did Vitor and Randleman just try roids once for the hell of it, and never before or after? When someone like Jeremy Horn, who has trained and trained with everyone in the sport, says 80% are on roids, do you just pretend you don't hear it?

Get this through your head: Your favorite "clean" athlete can do EVERYTHING Vitor can do, and can get away with it a HELL of a lot easier, because he NEVER has to take a blood test, and rarely if ever has to take ANY kind of random test.

So again, what is the unfair advantage Vitor has?

 

5/20/13 11:00 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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You called it zuffa testing...
Zuffa claimed they would "test the shit out of them" (fighters on trt)...yet you completely dicktuck the fact that zuffa did NOTHING to test vitor and deflected when questioned on it. Phone Post
5/21/13 12:30 AM
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Glovegate
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"It's also not bizarro of me to think that other fighters who have NEVER had any issues with steroids should be held to the same standards as known abusers."

And how do you catch these guys the first time with testing standards that are such garbage?  Everyone should be tested and the testing should be stricter, if these people are serious about not wanting PED's.

"You look real intelligent pretending that TRT does nothing at all to aid in training/drilling/sparring during camp."

You know it's interesting actually.  People often talk about the benefits of test but never the possible drawbacks.  Intense training brings with it certain chronic biological adaptations:  Increased bone density, increased tendon and ligament thickness and strength, etc (there are many others but they don't matter for the point I'm trying to make here.

People who roid, get muscular results that outpace the gains they receive relating to their skeletal system and connective tissue.  These people consequently often have a high injury rate.  In a combat sport, such a phenomenon is undesirable, to say the least.

And doesn't Vitor seem to get injured a lot...?

5/21/13 12:38 AM
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daba
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Cheating is cheating. Phone Post 3.0
5/21/13 6:14 AM
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orcus
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  You called it zuffa testing...
Zuffa claimed they would "test the shit out of them" (fighters on trt)...yet you completely dicktuck the fact that zuffa did NOTHING to test vitor and deflected when questioned on it. Phone Post

What's there to dicktuck? Okay, they didn't do what they said they would. That's lame. And? Vitor was still tested in camp, and by someone other than his promoter.

Would you or would you not just type a bunch of "lol"s if Zuffa said they tested Vitor throughout camp and he was within a noraml range?

Meanwhile you dicktuck every logical point in this and every thread.

5/21/13 9:08 AM
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Lazer MMA
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Clown

Hendo was never popped, was an Olympic competitor and never looked huge. As soon as he took TRT one could see the difference (Wand 1).

Vitor can never fight in Vegas again because he's using because AND he was popped. They must be = by any morons standard.
5/21/13 9:12 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  You called it zuffa testing...
Zuffa claimed they would "test the shit out of them" (fighters on trt)...yet you completely dicktuck the fact that zuffa did NOTHING to test vitor and deflected when questioned on it. Phone Post

What's there to dicktuck? Okay, they didn't do what they said they would. That's lame. And? Vitor was still tested in camp, and by someone other than his promoter.

Would you or would you not just type a bunch of "lol"s if Zuffa said they tested Vitor throughout camp and he was within a noraml range?

Meanwhile you dicktuck every logical point in this and every thread.

Yeah, "That's lame"....LOL.

What logical point would you like me to address? The one where you try and equate a know steroid abuser who is now on more steroids to guys who have never been busted for anything? ;-) Phone Post
5/21/13 1:07 PM
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orcus
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I would like you to tell me what the unfair advantage is for TUE guy when he, unlike other fighters, must actually have his test levels measured and must keep them within a normal range. 

FIghter A is at the high range of normal test at 800 ng/dL at his natural ratio of 1:1 test:epi.

Fighter B has normal test of 600 at his natural ratio of 1:1, but secretly roids, and comes in at 3:1 -- safely under the limit -- and thus has a test of 1800.

Fighter C has low test of 200 at his natural ratio of 1:1, and is on TRT. The TRT boosts his ratio to 3:1, and gives him a test of 600.

Who here has the advantage? Who here will have the most testosterone-fueled strength, speed, and endurance?

5/21/13 1:11 PM
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MasterofMartialArts
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I'm with Orcus until somebody disproves his findings. Phone Post 3.0
5/21/13 4:48 PM
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orcus
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orcus - 

I would like you to tell me what the unfair advantage is for TUE guy when he, unlike other fighters, must actually have his test levels measured and must keep them within a normal range. 

FIghter A is at the high range of normal test at 800 ng/dL at his natural ratio of 1:1 test:epi.

Fighter B has normal test of 600 at his natural ratio of 1:1, but secretly roids, and comes in at 3:1 -- safely under the limit -- and thus has a test of 1800.

Fighter C has low test of 200 at his natural ratio of 1:1, and is on TRT. The TRT boosts his ratio to 3:1, and gives him a test of 600.

Who here has the advantage? Who here will have the most testosterone-fueled strength, speed, and endurance?


Still waiting for LnP to tell me how the guy with the TRT comes out ahead...

5/21/13 7:26 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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"Fighter C has low test of 200 at his natural ratio of 1:1, and is on TRT. The TRT boosts his ratio to 3:1, and gives him a test of 600."

I dont get this scenario, The guy with trt exemption doesn't have to test under the 4:1 ratio, in fact he doesn't have to test for ration at all, all he has to do is to be under the max allowed total test levels, if They even test. For that.
5/21/13 7:26 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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Edited: 05/21/13 7:33 PM
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Double.
5/21/13 7:56 PM
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orcus
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Jons Forsberg - "Fighter C has low test of 200 at his natural ratio of 1:1, and is on TRT. The TRT boosts his ratio to 3:1, and gives him a test of 600."

I dont get this scenario, The guy with trt exemption doesn't have to test under the 4:1 ratio, in fact he doesn't have to test for ration at all, all he has to do is to be under the max allowed total test levels, if They even test. For that.

They have their blood tested before and after the fight and in camp to determine actual test level -- something that is never tested for fighters with no TUE -- AND they still have to come in under 4:1 ratio in the regular fight night urine test (6:1 for NSAC).

This was confirmed by Keith Kizer and Nick Lembo in emails, and by Mr Ross of the Pennsylvania AC in an article (yahoo iirc?). Presumably it is the same in California and elsewhere that issue TUEs for TRT. Kizer specifically confirmed that 600 is what is expected and has been the actual norm in their in-camp testing of fighters with TUEs.

5/21/13 8:06 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus -
Jons Forsberg - "Fighter C has low test of 200 at his natural ratio of 1:1, and is on TRT. The TRT boosts his ratio to 3:1, and gives him a test of 600."

I dont get this scenario, The guy with trt exemption doesn't have to test under the 4:1 ratio, in fact he doesn't have to test for ration at all, all he has to do is to be under the max allowed total test levels, if They even test. For that.

They have their blood tested before and after the fight and in camp to determine actual test level -- something that is never tested for fighters with no TUE -- AND they still have to come in under 4:1 ratio in the regular fight night urine test (6:1 for NSAC).

This was confirmed by Keith Kizer and Nick Lembo in emails, and by Mr Ross of the Pennsylvania AC in an article (yahoo iirc?). Presumably it is the same in California and elsewhere that issue TUEs for TRT. Kizer specifically confirmed that 600 is what is expected and has been the actual norm in their in-camp testing of fighters with TUEs.

Source for them having blood work during camps please. Phone Post
5/21/13 8:07 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Then source Vitor actually having bloodwork done during camp as well. Phone Post
5/21/13 8:17 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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"AND they still have to come in under 4:1 ratio in the regular fight night urine test (6:1 for NSAC)."

Not if they have a trt exemption. Those ratios only flag the presence of synthetic testosterone, nothing else. They don't correlate to total test levels at all.. In order to be under the 6:1 ratio these fighter would have to go off trt which defeats the point of getting an exemption in the first place. If Keith Keizer said that he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.
5/21/13 8:20 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Jons Forsberg - "AND they still have to come in under 4:1 ratio in the regular fight night urine test (6:1 for NSAC)."

Not if they have a trt exemption. Those ratios only flag the presence of synthetic testosterone, nothing else. They don't correlate to total test levels at all.. In order to be under the 6:1 ratio these fighter would have to go off trt which defeats the point of getting an exemption in the first place. If Keith Keizer said that he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.
Kieth did say that, and you would not have to "go off trt" to be 6:1 t/e ratio. You just couldn't be dosing your ass off within the few days before the fight. Injections peak and then fade iirc. Sonnen claimed he had shot up the day before the test and that's why it triggered so high on the ratio. Phone Post
5/21/13 8:27 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
Jons Forsberg - "AND they still have to come in under 4:1 ratio in the regular fight night urine test (6:1 for NSAC)."

Not if they have a trt exemption. Those ratios only flag the presence of synthetic testosterone, nothing else. They don't correlate to total test levels at all.. In order to be under the 6:1 ratio these fighter would have to go off trt which defeats the point of getting an exemption in the first place. If Keith Keizer said that he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.
Kieth did say that, and you would not have to "go off trt" to be 6:1 t/e ratio. You just couldn't be dosing your ass off within the few days before the fight. Injections peak and then fade iirc. Sonnen claimed he had shot up the day before the test and that's why it triggered so high on the ratio. Phone Post

No, even at only replacement dose the exogenous testosterone will displace your t:e ratio well above 6:1.like I said, the ration doesn't mean anything other than flagging the presence of synthetic test, one could have a 15:1 ratio while his total test is well within the allowed range.
5/21/13 8:31 PM
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Jons Forsberg
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Lol at taking chaels word for anything. Test cypionate has a long half life and values don't just spike the day you take it, in fact it takes 48hours for it to even reach maximum blood concentration.
5/21/13 8:34 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Jons Forsberg - Lol at taking chaels word for anything. Test cypionate has a long half life and values don't just spike the day you take it, in fact it takes 48hours for it to even reach maximum blood concentration.
Oh trust me I don't take chaels word too seriously at all. Wasn't trying to argue. Kieth did say they still had to come in under 6:1, and I understand that that ratio means nothing in relation to overall testosterone levels. Phone Post
5/21/13 9:54 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/21/13 10:10 PM
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"Source for them having blood work during camps please."

CSAC: "For a testosterone exemption specifically, Dodd said an applicant would be asked to provide blood tests prior to (30 days before) and after a contest to ensure levels were within acceptable margins." "

Pennslyvania AC: "Marquardt’s testosterone levels were above the allowable number in a recent test, which would have been in the past three weeks [before the fight],"

Kizer NSAC: "Q: Does a fighter who has an exemption for TRT have to submit blood samples at any time during training camp?  A: Yes"

Kizer NSAC: "But if someone in testing before the bout was shown to have unacceptable levels, he said they would not be allowed to fight, as opposed to giving them the opportunity to get to normal levels by the day of the fight."

Lembo NJAC: "Q: Does a fighter who has an exemption for TRT have to submit blood samples and/or testosterone tests at any time during training camp? A: Yes"

"Then source Vitor actually having bloodwork done during camp as well."

"The Brazilian commission is handling this fight and all subsequent fights in Brazil," Ratner said. "They have tested Vitor, who is within legal limits, and will be testing him at the fights."

""AND they still have to come in under 4:1 ratio in the regular fight night urine test (6:1 for NSAC)."

Not if they have a trt exemption. Those ratios only flag the presence of synthetic testosterone, nothing else."

Nick Lembo NJAC: Q: Does a fighter who has an exemption for TRT still have to test under the 6:1 limit for testosterone:epitestosterone? A: 4 to 1 in NJ

Keith Kizer NSAC:
Q: Does a fighter who has an exemption for TRT still have to test under the 6:1 limit for testosterone:epitestosterone?  
A: [in line with Forsberg's comments] The T/E ratio is a screening test (not a limit per se) to check if someone is using synthetic testosterone.  In the case of an athlete with a TRT TUE, the more important numbers are his total serum testosterone, free testosterone, hematocrit, hemoglobin, FSH and LH levels.  Nonetheless, we expect the T/E ratio to be under 6/1 and would investigate if it were not. 
A2: [response to different email] It is the actual serum testosterone levels tested through blood testing that matter most.  Nonetheless, all the athletes who have competed under a TRT TUE have been below 6:1 for the T/E ratio.
 
" In order to be under the 6:1 ratio these fighter would have to go off trt"
 
Ok, sounds like you know something about this and can hopefully answer my question. If a fighter's natural (low) level is 200 ng/dL and his ratio is 1:1 with no trt, why would he have to go off trt to keep it under 6:1? He only needs to triple his test to reach an average level of 600 ng/dL, wouldn't that boost his ratio to 3:1? In any case Kizer claims all athletes with TUEs have been below 6:1.

 

5/21/13 11:57 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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So the best "proof" you have of any fighter being blood tested during their training camp was the CSAC saying they test ONCE and the fighter knows exactly when ("30 days out")....and then a bunch of hypotgeticals and third hand accounts of ratner basically saying 'yeah Brazil is handling that and he was fine's....

LOL. Try again. Fighters spend months in camp and the only thing close to proof you presented was the CSAC's one NOT random test 30 days out. Phone Post
5/22/13 2:22 AM
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Jons Forsberg
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Edited: 05/22/13 2:29 AM
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Ok, sounds like you know something about this and can hopefully answer my question. If a fighter's natural (low) level is 200 ng/dL and his ratio is 1:1 with no trt, why would he have to go off trt to keep it under 6:1? He only needs to triple his test to reach an average level of 600 ng/dL, wouldn't that boost his ratio to 3:1? In any case Kizer claims all athletes with TUEs have been below 6:1.
not really because urine sample is a bad way to calculate test levels. You might be over excreting, etc. The only certified way to know your actual serum levels of testosterone is getting a blood sample.

Some studies also show that injecting synthetic testosterone cause the epitestosterone levels to drop, so in your example if fighter reaches 600ng/dl with TRT, the epitestosterone levels could fall to 50ng/dl which would make the ratios even more meaningless as far as calculating test levels. I find it bizarre that Kizer would say that, let's hope that he's just clueless and the commission doesn't actually require that.

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