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UnderGround Forums >> John Cholish blasts UFC fighter pay


5/26/13 2:15 AM
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dubate
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nobones -
Dominique Robinson - Cholish has some points Phone Post 3.0

I agree, he has some decent points.  But his credibility is shot to hell when he broke down the PPV revenue without subtracting what the PPV companies take which is 50%.  Also of all his criticism he doesn't criticize the ridiculous Brazilian tax which isn't a UFC problem it is a problem between the US and Brazilian government.  Also, the concept of your employer giving you a raise after you low ball yourself and underperform...doesn't make sense.  He admits he took a low price contract because 'he wasn't about the money'.  Well that was stupid.  

I'm not about the money, so I didn't pay attention to my contract when I signed it. However, let me talk about how unfair they are and how little money they pay me. Phone Post
5/26/13 2:52 AM
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dubate
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nobones -
dubate - 
nobones -
Dominique Robinson - Cholish has some points Phone Post 3.0

I agree, he has some decent points.  But his credibility is shot to hell when he broke down the PPV revenue without subtracting what the PPV companies take which is 50%.  Also of all his criticism he doesn't criticize the ridiculous Brazilian tax which isn't a UFC problem it is a problem between the US and Brazilian government.  Also, the concept of your employer giving you a raise after you low ball yourself and underperform...doesn't make sense.  He admits he took a low price contract because 'he wasn't about the money'.  Well that was stupid.  

I'm not about the money, so I didn't pay attention to my contract when I signed it. However, let me talk about how unfair they are and how little money they pay me. Phone Post

Exactly!  I took a job early in life out of college for $28,000 a year.  It was the best job I could get at the time.  I was 23 years old.  I worked up to $50,000 over four years but was still struggling and I felt my value to my company was much more than what I was being compensated.  I went out and got some job offers, and negotiated a pay increase as well as a bonus structure that allowed me to double my salary inside of two years after and today (10 years later) I am making more than 3x what I was making when I renegotiated my deal.

I didn't just bitch that my boss was so rich and he should just spread the wealth around.  NO BOSS wants to hear anything like that.  I have had employees before and the last thing I want to hear is someone complain about the pay they accepted.  If they come at me with a notification that they might leave and I value them then I will pay them more, but for sure I am trying to pay market value not more than that.

And I don't believe in unions.  Unions are short term solutions that lead to major long term problems.  Things become super political and usually the most corrupt people become the head of unions.  Unions are what can cause problems in sports.  They almost killed hockey once and set baseball and basketball back over time.

Seriously, the worst thing you can do for yourself is to count your boss's money. You guys don't have the same job, you're never going to make the same money while you're at that company. What you need to do is figure out how much you think you're worth, figure out a way to get comps to see if that number tracks, and then find somebody who will pay you that. If you can't, you aren't worth as much as you thought. Phone Post
5/26/13 3:23 AM
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WoodenPupa
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5/29/13 2:28 PM
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epwar
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Edited: 05/29/13 2:38 PM
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Huge interview with Cholish by UG's own Crooklyn.  Well worth the read (which means most the UG won't read it).  

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/5/29/4374198/john-cholish-ufc-fighter-pay-dana-white

The best questions:

Stephie Daniels: After your interview with Ariel Helwani,Dana White has made some unfavorable comments directed at you. How do you feel about him sort of throwing you under the bus like that?

John Cholish: It's a little upsetting. I wasn't upset so much about the personal attack towards me. I felt it was more of an insult to all the fighters on the roster that he did not address a single one of my questions. I think they're important questions and they should be answered. Just from the support I've seen from MMA fans, it seems like they want some answers, too.

It's sad because any company I have ever worked for, or any professional sports organization in general, you would never hear a commissioner or a CEO speak about a former or current employee in the manner that Dana continuously speaks about his current and former fighters. Maybe that's just how the company is rub, but it seems unacceptable to me.

It would be nice if Zuffa answered those questions, not only for the fighters currently on their roster, but for other up and coming fighters that are just getting into the sport.

++++

Stephie Daniels: You mentioned that there are other fighters that share your opinions, but don't want to have their voices heard or be recognized for those opinions out of fear of repercussions. How many of those guys or what percentage would you estimate do share your opinions?

John Cholish: I would say 90% including some top tier fighters. It's interesting when you look at an event that takes place over the weekend, and the reported salaries for the entire roster on that card, 24 fighters or so, can be covered alone with the in-gate ticket sales at the venue. That's before you even get to the PPV, the licensing, the merchandising, the advertising and the contracted revenue with companies like FOX.

I don't know the exact numbers, but it's pretty obscene when you look at the revenue that the UFC is taking in, compared to the portion that they're giving back to the fighters. Last I checked, the fans are buying the PPV to see the guys inside the cage, not the owners sitting outside of it.

++++

Sadly, Dana can just ignore this issue and it will eventually disappear.

5/29/13 3:19 PM
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Lobo8
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The pay is good for where the sport is right now. The bottom tier guys get paid peanuts but i dont have an issue with that because they are just card filler and the opportunity for them to work their way up to a bigger payday is there.
5/29/13 4:02 PM
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chadk
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Funny Dana would say "compare us to boxing" because we had an African kid from the gym make $6,000 in his 5th pro boxing match back in 2006. He was 3-0-1 at the time with no knockouts and wasn't well known at all. I understand the points made about UFC covering all production costs, marketing, etc but their pay still seems damned low to me. Phone Post
5/29/13 4:55 PM
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jacktripper
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chadk - Funny Dana would say "compare us to boxing" because we had an African kid from the gym make $6,000 in his 5th pro boxing match back in 2006. He was 3-0-1 at the time with no knockouts and wasn't well known at all. I understand the points made about UFC covering all production costs, marketing, etc but their pay still seems damned low to me. Phone Post
That sounds very unusual Phone Post 3.0
5/29/13 5:16 PM
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MMALOGIC
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so a guy who only has like 6 professional fights is complaining about a 6k show and 6 k win money on prelims?

a boxer with only 6 or 9 fights wouldnt even make 10% of that.
5/29/13 5:18 PM
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Macedawgg
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Sorry nobones--but that is just not true. 

Not only did "unions" not almost kill any sport--those sports are thriving. 

The "unions" in the major sports have been remarkably successful, as have the sports.

5/29/13 5:24 PM
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MMALOGIC
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"I don't know the exact numbers, but it's pretty obscene when you look at the revenue that the UFC is taking in, compared to the portion that they're giving back to the fighters. Last I checked, the fans are buying the PPV to see the guys inside the cage, not the owners sitting outside of it." John Cholish

You see this is where he becomes a retard. Besides his mother, who's paying to watch John Cholish? do you think zuffa sells 6k dollars worth of tickets and ppv buys because john cholish is on the card?

The reality is zuffa is losing money short term by paying a guy like cholish 6k because zuffa isnt selling anywhere close to 6k dollars worth of tickets or ppv buys because john cholish is on the card.

This why the country is going down. We have spawned a bunch of retards who think they are entitled to stuff... just because.
5/29/13 5:50 PM
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Jesus Quintana
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MMALOGIC - so a guy who only has like 6 professional fights is complaining about a 6k show and 6 k win money on prelims?

a boxer with only 6 or 9 fights wouldnt even make 10% of that.

and a boxer who headlines a PPV will make the combined pay of all the fighters on multiple ufc ppvs put together.
5/29/13 5:53 PM
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Jesus Quintana
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MMALOGIC - "I don't know the exact numbers, but it's pretty obscene when you look at the revenue that the UFC is taking in, compared to the portion that they're giving back to the fighters. Last I checked, the fans are buying the PPV to see the guys inside the cage, not the owners sitting outside of it." John Cholish

You see this is where he becomes a retard. Besides his mother, who's paying to watch John Cholish? do you think zuffa sells 6k dollars worth of tickets and ppv buys because john cholish is on the card?

The reality is zuffa is losing money short term by paying a guy like cholish 6k because zuffa isnt selling anywhere close to 6k dollars worth of tickets or ppv buys because john cholish is on the card.

This why the country is going down. We have spawned a bunch of retards who think they are entitled to stuff... just because.

what credentials do you have to call an ivy league grad, finance professional and former UFC fighter retarded?
5/29/13 5:59 PM
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djones
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Asses in seats..... if you can do that... you get $$$, if you cant, you might have to find a new profession

5/29/13 6:01 PM
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youarewhatiswrong
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Jesus Quintana - 
MMALOGIC - "I don't know the exact numbers, but it's pretty obscene when you look at the revenue that the UFC is taking in, compared to the portion that they're giving back to the fighters. Last I checked, the fans are buying the PPV to see the guys inside the cage, not the owners sitting outside of it." John Cholish

You see this is where he becomes a retard. Besides his mother, who's paying to watch John Cholish? do you think zuffa sells 6k dollars worth of tickets and ppv buys because john cholish is on the card?

The reality is zuffa is losing money short term by paying a guy like cholish 6k because zuffa isnt selling anywhere close to 6k dollars worth of tickets or ppv buys because john cholish is on the card.

This why the country is going down. We have spawned a bunch of retards who think they are entitled to stuff... just because.

what credentials do you have to call an ivy league grad, finance professional and former UFC fighter retarded?

Seriously. People throw around the whole "paid poster" accusation a lot, but other than CindyO I didn't think that held any water. I think I've gotta put MMALOGIC at number 2 on that list.
5/29/13 6:01 PM
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Macedawgg
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Chris Brennan is right--but if all those guys were released, there would be a flood of talent on the market. . . and available for other outlets. . . and require the UFC to continously "bid" to obtain talent . . .

Exactly why that doesn't occur.

5/29/13 7:18 PM
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dubate
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If you see something is wrong, you complain about it. Looking at what Paul Daley is doing, he's under contract with Bellator but something is wrong and he brought it up. When you don't bring up anything until you get cut (or retire right before you get cut like Cholish) you lose credibility.
News flash, owners make more money than players do. If you think the contract is unfair, don't sign it.
My point is that with the UFC pay has gone up, they now have insurance that even covers injuries sustained while training and the fighters are beginning to attract high level sponsorships. This is what has happened since 2001. Show me any major sport that treated its employees as well as the UFC has after their first 12 years of existence. Phone Post
5/29/13 7:25 PM
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Macedawgg
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dubate -  If you see something is wrong, you complain about it. Looking at what Paul Daley is doing, he's under contract with Bellator but something is wrong and he brought it up. When you don't bring up anything until you get cut (or retire right before you get cut like Cholish) you lose credibility.
News flash, owners make more money than players do. If you think the contract is unfair, don't sign it.
My point is that with the UFC pay has gone up, they now have insurance that even covers injuries sustained while training and the fighters are beginning to attract high level sponsorships. This is what has happened since 2001. Show me any major sport that treated its employees as well as the UFC has after their first 12 years of existence. Phone Post

Actually, in sports, owners don't make more than players.  Not in any of the sports.

5/29/13 7:35 PM
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dubate
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Macedawgg -
dubate -  If you see something is wrong, you complain about it. Looking at what Paul Daley is doing, he's under contract with Bellator but something is wrong and he brought it up. When you don't bring up anything until you get cut (or retire right before you get cut like Cholish) you lose credibility.
News flash, owners make more money than players do. If you think the contract is unfair, don't sign it.
My point is that with the UFC pay has gone up, they now have insurance that even covers injuries sustained while training and the fighters are beginning to attract high level sponsorships. This is what has happened since 2001. Show me any major sport that treated its employees as well as the UFC has after their first 12 years of existence. Phone Post

Actually, in sports, owners don't make more than players.  Not in any of the sports.

I was referring to individual players obviously the collective will make more once you factor in expenses. Phone Post
5/29/13 7:41 PM
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Macedawgg
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Even individual players make more--frequently--especially if you believe the financials put out by the owners. 

Even on a collective basis, that is far from the case in MMA.

5/29/13 7:44 PM
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Thacommish
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dubate -  If you see something is wrong, you complain about it. Looking at what Paul Daley is doing, he's under contract with Bellator but something is wrong and he brought it up. When you don't bring up anything until you get cut (or retire right before you get cut like Cholish) you lose credibility.
News flash, owners make more money than players do. If you think the contract is unfair, don't sign it.
My point is that with the UFC pay has gone up, they now have insurance that even covers injuries sustained while training and the fighters are beginning to attract high level sponsorships. This is what has happened since 2001. Show me any major sport that treated its employees as well as the UFC has after their first 12 years of existence. Phone Post

"Show me any major sport that treated its employees as well as the UFC has after their first 12 years of existence"
To be fair its hard to compare the ufc now to say 1870 when baseball was getting off the ground. Times were a bit different, diphtheria and tb and shrapnel from the civil war were like the leading causes of death
5/29/13 7:47 PM
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dubate
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Macedawgg -

Even individual players make more--frequently--especially if you believe the financials put out by the owners. 

Even on a collective basis, that is far from the case in MMA.

What financials are you referring to? Phone Post
5/29/13 7:48 PM
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Macedawgg
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Financials that the sports teams release for various purposes. . .many claim losing money. 

Baseball recently had an "audit" of sorts--the one that claimed 2/3rd's lost money. . .

5/29/13 7:53 PM
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dubate
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Macedawgg -

Financials that the sports teams release for various purposes. . .many claim losing money. 

Baseball recently had an "audit" of sorts--the one that claimed 2/3rd's lost money. . .

Yeah deadspin.com showed that those financials were bullshit. Then they went and published the actual ones that showed how profitable even the last place teams really were. Phone Post
5/29/13 7:54 PM
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Macedawgg
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dubate - 
Macedawgg -

Financials that the sports teams release for various purposes. . .many claim losing money. 

Baseball recently had an "audit" of sorts--the one that claimed 2/3rd's lost money. . .

Yeah deadspin.com showed that those financials were bullshit. Then they went and published the actual ones that showed how profitable even the last place teams really were. Phone Post

Yup.

5/29/13 11:25 PM
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canuck34
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epwar -

Huge interview with Cholish by UG's own Crooklyn.  Well worth the read (which means most the UG won't read it).  

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/5/29/4374198/john-cholish-ufc-fighter-pay-dana-white

The best questions:

Stephie Daniels: After your interview with Ariel Helwani,Dana White has made some unfavorable comments directed at you. How do you feel about him sort of throwing you under the bus like that?

John Cholish: It's a little upsetting. I wasn't upset so much about the personal attack towards me. I felt it was more of an insult to all the fighters on the roster that he did not address a single one of my questions. I think they're important questions and they should be answered. Just from the support I've seen from MMA fans, it seems like they want some answers, too.

It's sad because any company I have ever worked for, or any professional sports organization in general, you would never hear a commissioner or a CEO speak about a former or current employee in the manner that Dana continuously speaks about his current and former fighters. Maybe that's just how the company is rub, but it seems unacceptable to me.

It would be nice if Zuffa answered those questions, not only for the fighters currently on their roster, but for other up and coming fighters that are just getting into the sport.

++++

Stephie Daniels: You mentioned that there are other fighters that share your opinions, but don't want to have their voices heard or be recognized for those opinions out of fear of repercussions. How many of those guys or what percentage would you estimate do share your opinions?

John Cholish: I would say 90% including some top tier fighters. It's interesting when you look at an event that takes place over the weekend, and the reported salaries for the entire roster on that card, 24 fighters or so, can be covered alone with the in-gate ticket sales at the venue. That's before you even get to the PPV, the licensing, the merchandising, the advertising and the contracted revenue with companies like FOX.

I don't know the exact numbers, but it's pretty obscene when you look at the revenue that the UFC is taking in, compared to the portion that they're giving back to the fighters. Last I checked, the fans are buying the PPV to see the guys inside the cage, not the owners sitting outside of it.

++++

Sadly, Dana can just ignore this issue and it will eventually disappear.

What a joke. He forgets to mention that the top fighters get points on PPV.

He also forgets to mention that Zuffa was still paying fighters when it was losing money hand over fist for several years. Phone Post

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