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UnderGround Forums >> John Cholish blasts UFC fighter pay


6/2/13 12:44 PM
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Jumbo Reverse Shrimp
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Kick Boxe - 

They really need a fighters union and proper representation. A minimum is definitely needed


Werd.

It's amazing to hear about fighter bashing when someone says GSP (or whoever) is a boring point fighter, but it's OK to say that these low paid fighters are basically scrubs and that they should all be on bended knee thanking uncle Dana. (And Ian McCall, you need to give Dana his nick name.)
6/2/13 12:46 PM
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Jumbo Reverse Shrimp
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w9 - Sometimes I think UFC is not a real sport.

Sometimes, like when they give Chael a shot at Jones immediately after a lost to Anderson?
6/2/13 12:56 PM
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jv071481
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Wining about fighter pay. You don't hear low level basketball players wining about their pay. I'm sure they only make like 40 bucks a game. Phone Post 3.0
6/2/13 1:05 PM
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Jumbo Reverse Shrimp
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Heh.

http://www.insidehoops.com/minimum-nba-salary.shtml
6/2/13 1:27 PM
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Jumbo Reverse Shrimp
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12 - 
MMALOGIC - 4k dollars to show? where was he when guys were making 600 to show and 600 to win?

you talking when the ufc wasnt on ppv or tv


The more things change . . .

“You have to look at it. I was [grossing] about two million dollars [annually] in the heating business. I could break my hand, leg or back versus that sumo guy. You made $1,000, and there was no insurance, I think, until UFC 6,” he says. “You had to sign a half-inch thick contract, so even if you died, your family couldn’t sue. Basically, they owned you.”

--Keith Hackney
6/2/13 2:25 PM
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CindyO
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Macedawgg - 
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Rickmassmma - Do you think the CEO of the financial company Cholish works for gets paid what Cholish does? The comment about how fans are there to see the fighters, not the owners sitting outside the cage...very true, but I would expect an educated fucking man with some financial knowledge to have more sense than that. Without the long hours and years of dedication to growing the company, there would be no event at all. The fact that he was fortunate enough to collect a pay check for doing something he enjoyed was directly related to the long days Dana and co were putting in years before Cholish even flirted with the idea of fighting professionally.

Woah, really?  

No one is arguing Cholish should be paid what Dana White or the Fertittas get paid.  The argument is simple - some fighters in this billion dollar company aren't even being paid a wage that they can live on.


Bob Arum doesn't make what Manny Pacquiao makes.

Showtime doesn't make what PBF makes. 

Nor is it even close on a per event basis. 

Why should MMA be any different.  Both are prize fighting, both are individual sports, both have promoters and talent. . . yet, MMA pays drastically inferior amounts to talent. 

I'm curious why RickMassMMA is so excitedly anti-talent and accepting of what is paid in MMA. 


Arum does not Handle all production and promotion. Nor does Arum foot the entire bill for all events. The UFC pays for everything.

Big boxing has much larger sponsors that pay fees the UFC can only dream of. If a day comes when all UFC gates are 5 mil and higher, they charge more for PPVs, have companies foot the bill for PR and production and have sponsors paying more money, guys will make far more.

The UFC, unlike anyone in boxing, employs over 200 people (not including fighters) and spends millions simply trying to build markets for the future. It is in their best interest, but much of what they make is put right back into the company.

They employ more than 200 people.

 

"Fertitta likened that comparison to apples and oranges: "What you have to understand is that our model is different. We are everything. … We're the promoter. We're the television producer. We're responsible for all the costs that go into the production, and you're talking millions and millions of dollars.

"We employ well over 500 people just to make this machine run."

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/UFCpay/ufc-fighters-say-low-pay-most-painful-hit-all

 

Cindy


Hey Cindy--

Are the athletes included in that 500 number (which would mean a staff of about 100 at the time)? 

 


Double-checked with Lorenzo and the 500 figure didn't include the athletes (as they are contractors) . The figure also didn't include production staff as they slipped through the cracks at the time or it would have been well over 500. They they are beyond 1,000 with the fighters.

 

Cindy

6/2/13 2:58 PM
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fryingarmbar
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CindyO -
Macedawgg - 
CindyO - 
Lynchman - 
Macedawgg - 
epwar - 
Rickmassmma - Do you think the CEO of the financial company Cholish works for gets paid what Cholish does? The comment about how fans are there to see the fighters, not the owners sitting outside the cage...very true, but I would expect an educated fucking man with some financial knowledge to have more sense than that. Without the long hours and years of dedication to growing the company, there would be no event at all. The fact that he was fortunate enough to collect a pay check for doing something he enjoyed was directly related to the long days Dana and co were putting in years before Cholish even flirted with the idea of fighting professionally.

Woah, really?  

No one is arguing Cholish should be paid what Dana White or the Fertittas get paid.  The argument is simple - some fighters in this billion dollar company aren't even being paid a wage that they can live on.


Bob Arum doesn't make what Manny Pacquiao makes.

Showtime doesn't make what PBF makes. 

Nor is it even close on a per event basis. 

Why should MMA be any different.  Both are prize fighting, both are individual sports, both have promoters and talent. . . yet, MMA pays drastically inferior amounts to talent. 

I'm curious why RickMassMMA is so excitedly anti-talent and accepting of what is paid in MMA. 


Arum does not Handle all production and promotion. Nor does Arum foot the entire bill for all events. The UFC pays for everything.

Big boxing has much larger sponsors that pay fees the UFC can only dream of. If a day comes when all UFC gates are 5 mil and higher, they charge more for PPVs, have companies foot the bill for PR and production and have sponsors paying more money, guys will make far more.

The UFC, unlike anyone in boxing, employs over 200 people (not including fighters) and spends millions simply trying to build markets for the future. It is in their best interest, but much of what they make is put right back into the company.

They employ more than 200 people.

 

"Fertitta likened that comparison to apples and oranges: "What you have to understand is that our model is different. We are everything. … We're the promoter. We're the television producer. We're responsible for all the costs that go into the production, and you're talking millions and millions of dollars.

"We employ well over 500 people just to make this machine run."

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/UFCpay/ufc-fighters-say-low-pay-most-painful-hit-all

 

Cindy


Hey Cindy--

Are the athletes included in that 500 number (which would mean a staff of about 100 at the time)? 

 


Double-checked with Lorenzo and the 500 figure didn't include the athletes (as they are contractors) . The figure also didn't include production staff as they slipped through the cracks at the time or it would have been well over 500. They they are beyond 1,000 with the fighters.

 

Cindy

lol @ "just checked with Lorenzo" and insisting she's not a paid poster. Shill harder. Phone Post 3.0
6/2/13 3:04 PM
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hendofanforlife
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So even though macedawg is discussing the UFC he is going to bring up "top promoters" yet not name them. Bullshit detected.

And lol @ saying their numbers don't add up. That there's this huge gap when all you're doing is pulling numbers out of your ass. You can always tell who hasn't run a successful business before because they think fighter pay is this limitless magic well of money. And that fighters who arent yet bringing eyes on the screen should be on par with those who do.

Trust me I'm no shill. I hate that the UFC ended pride wec and strikeforce. I hate Dana putting people on blast for saying things identical to him a few years ago. But fighter pay has been increasing substantially. Nobody made less than 8k (declared payout only!) last ppv. I've noticed the bitching seems to be from UFC washouts who had few exciting moments.
6/2/13 5:00 PM
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Macedawgg
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Edited: 06/02/13 5:39 PM
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Ah yes.  Maysey is full of shit! 

I've heard this hundreds of times over the years, and yet, what I say is proved out, over and over. 

I was the first one to call the UFC a billion dollar company--before the Wall Street Journal.  It was amusing watching the reactions come from this board.  Utter hostility, much like your amusing post Hendofan.

I was also the first one to have a CSAC pay sheet posted publicly--attacked widespread, after of course, claiming that I invented the numbers.  Notice how most all of the sites do this now (with 1/2 page disclaimers attempting to explain away the numbers).  

I have also said over and over exactly what Cholish just said in public--including to ESPN.  Once again, was told, Maysey is "inventing" his sources!  Well, well, well.  What did Cholish just say?  90% express the same sentiment?  I've said that too. 

What do we also know is a fact?  The UFC owners have taken more out in dividends than they have paid to the fighters.  How do we know? Lorenzo told us total compensation between the years 2005 and 2011 was approximately $250 million [edited bolded part to fix years].  We also know the owners have taken more out in dividends during this span.  Source--S&P Reports. 

But, but, Maysey is inventing! Hahah.  Some of you post like its your job. . .

As to my promoter sources--not going to release that.  Feel free to call around if you wish.  I did.  Here is one academic article for you to get you started--but I'm sure this guy also "invented" and is full of shit.  http://www.secondsout.com/ringside/the-business-of-boxing/the-abcs-of-pay-per-view

As to pay substantially increasing.  You sure about that?  The average purse over the past 4 years (from reported sources) has barely moved at all--but I'm sure you've already run the numbers and come to this conclusion yourself too.  Hahahah. 

Thanks Cindy for checking.  So, my posts above regarding the numbers stand.  Still don't come close to adding up, different "business model" and all. 
 

6/2/13 7:42 PM
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dubate
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Macedawgg -

Ah yes.  Maysey is full of shit! 

I've heard this hundreds of times over the years, and yet, what I say is proved out, over and over. 

I was the first one to call the UFC a billion dollar company--before the Wall Street Journal.  It was amusing watching the reactions come from this board.  Utter hostility, much like your amusing post Hendofan.

I was also the first one to have a CSAC pay sheet posted publicly--attacked widespread, after of course, claiming that I invented the numbers.  Notice how most all of the sites do this now (with 1/2 page disclaimers attempting to explain away the numbers).  

I have also said over and over exactly what Cholish just said in public--including to ESPN.  Once again, was told, Maysey is "inventing" his sources!  Well, well, well.  What did Cholish just say?  90% express the same sentiment?  I've said that too. 

What do we also know is a fact?  The UFC owners have taken more out in dividends than they have paid to the fighters.  How do we know? Lorenzo told us total compensation between the years 2005 and 2011 was approximately $250 million [edited bolded part to fix years].  We also know the owners have taken more out in dividends during this span.  Source--S&P Reports. 

But, but, Maysey is inventing! Hahah.  Some of you post like its your job. . .

As to my promoter sources--not going to release that.  Feel free to call around if you wish.  I did.  Here is one academic article for you to get you started--but I'm sure this guy also "invented" and is full of shit.  http://www.secondsout.com/ringside/the-business-of-boxing/the-abcs-of-pay-per-view

As to pay substantially increasing.  You sure about that?  The average purse over the past 4 years (from reported sources) has barely moved at all--but I'm sure you've already run the numbers and come to this conclusion yourself too.  Hahahah. 

Thanks Cindy for checking.  So, my posts above regarding the numbers stand.  Still don't come close to adding up, different "business model" and all. 
 

I'm still trying to figure out how to put on a UFC PPV for only $200k. Especially when the just the salaries of Goldie, Rogan, and Buffer eclipse that number. Phone Post
6/2/13 7:54 PM
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Macedawgg
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And what is your source for that assertion?

6/2/13 8:24 PM
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dubate
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Edited: 06/02/13 8:25 PM
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Macedawgg -

And what is your source for that assertion?

Well Joe has said he makes between 80-120k per show. I assume he wouldn't have said that if Goldie was only making 20k per show, so let's assume that they are making roughly the same amount. The only reach I'm making is Buffer. He's never talked about his salary but he's been around since UFC 10 so I'm just guessing that he's making about what Goldie & Rogan do. Phone Post
6/2/13 9:57 PM
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Macedawgg
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I don't make that same assumption.

6/2/13 10:15 PM
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TheKidAintMine
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whoabro - I produce live video content for a living.

Noooooooo fuckin way you are going to produce a UFC for anywhere near 100-200k, i would guess its somewhere at least 10x that.

Point being, whoever threw out that number doesnt know what theyre talking about so take their opinions with a big grain of salt. Phone Post 3.0

Yeah, macedawg is speculating about numbers at this point. The funny thing is that he's making assumptions and, at the same time, he's getting on others about making assumptions. It's hilarious!

No one knows the exact costs associated with putting on a UFC event so arguing beyond just basic principles is pretty much meaningless.
6/2/13 10:23 PM
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dubate
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TheKidAintMine -
whoabro - I produce live video content for a living.

Noooooooo fuckin way you are going to produce a UFC for anywhere near 100-200k, i would guess its somewhere at least 10x that.

Point being, whoever threw out that number doesnt know what theyre talking about so take their opinions with a big grain of salt. Phone Post 3.0

Yeah, macedawg is speculating about numbers at this point. The funny thing is that he's making assumptions and, at the same time, he's getting on others about making assumptions. It's hilarious!

No one knows the exact costs associated with putting on a UFC event so arguing beyond just basic principles is pretty much meaningless.
I know, I am just fascinated with the idea that UFC is able to put on a major PPV for 200k (especially when Rogan is getting half of that number) Phone Post
6/3/13 12:25 AM
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CindyO
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CindyO -
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CindyO - 
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epwar - 
Rickmassmma - Do you think the CEO of the financial company Cholish works for gets paid what Cholish does? The comment about how fans are there to see the fighters, not the owners sitting outside the cage...very true, but I would expect an educated fucking man with some financial knowledge to have more sense than that. Without the long hours and years of dedication to growing the company, there would be no event at all. The fact that he was fortunate enough to collect a pay check for doing something he enjoyed was directly related to the long days Dana and co were putting in years before Cholish even flirted with the idea of fighting professionally.

Woah, really?  

No one is arguing Cholish should be paid what Dana White or the Fertittas get paid.  The argument is simple - some fighters in this billion dollar company aren't even being paid a wage that they can live on.


Bob Arum doesn't make what Manny Pacquiao makes.

Showtime doesn't make what PBF makes. 

Nor is it even close on a per event basis. 

Why should MMA be any different.  Both are prize fighting, both are individual sports, both have promoters and talent. . . yet, MMA pays drastically inferior amounts to talent. 

I'm curious why RickMassMMA is so excitedly anti-talent and accepting of what is paid in MMA. 


Arum does not Handle all production and promotion. Nor does Arum foot the entire bill for all events. The UFC pays for everything.

Big boxing has much larger sponsors that pay fees the UFC can only dream of. If a day comes when all UFC gates are 5 mil and higher, they charge more for PPVs, have companies foot the bill for PR and production and have sponsors paying more money, guys will make far more.

The UFC, unlike anyone in boxing, employs over 200 people (not including fighters) and spends millions simply trying to build markets for the future. It is in their best interest, but much of what they make is put right back into the company.

They employ more than 200 people.

 

"Fertitta likened that comparison to apples and oranges: "What you have to understand is that our model is different. We are everything. … We're the promoter. We're the television producer. We're responsible for all the costs that go into the production, and you're talking millions and millions of dollars.

"We employ well over 500 people just to make this machine run."

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/UFCpay/ufc-fighters-say-low-pay-most-painful-hit-all

 

Cindy


Hey Cindy--

Are the athletes included in that 500 number (which would mean a staff of about 100 at the time)? 

 


Double-checked with Lorenzo and the 500 figure didn't include the athletes (as they are contractors) . The figure also didn't include production staff as they slipped through the cracks at the time or it would have been well over 500. They they are beyond 1,000 with the fighters.

 

Cindy

lol @ "just checked with Lorenzo" and insisting she's not a paid poster. Shill harder. Phone Post 3.0

*shrugs* Believe what you want to:)  Its no secret that Lorenzo is accessible. He's also a UGer.

 

Cindy

6/3/13 12:35 AM
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CindyO
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Macedawgg - 

Ah yes.  Maysey is full of shit! 

I've heard this hundreds of times over the years, and yet, what I say is proved out, over and over. 

I was the first one to call the UFC a billion dollar company--before the Wall Street Journal.  It was amusing watching the reactions come from this board.  Utter hostility, much like your amusing post Hendofan.

I was also the first one to have a CSAC pay sheet posted publicly--attacked widespread, after of course, claiming that I invented the numbers.  Notice how most all of the sites do this now (with 1/2 page disclaimers attempting to explain away the numbers).  

I have also said over and over exactly what Cholish just said in public--including to ESPN.  Once again, was told, Maysey is "inventing" his sources!  Well, well, well.  What did Cholish just say?  90% express the same sentiment?  I've said that too. 

What do we also know is a fact?  The UFC owners have taken more out in dividends than they have paid to the fighters.  How do we know? Lorenzo told us total compensation between the years 2005 and 2011 was approximately $250 million [edited bolded part to fix years].  We also know the owners have taken more out in dividends during this span.  Source--S&P Reports. 

But, but, Maysey is inventing! Hahah.  Some of you post like its your job. . .

As to my promoter sources--not going to release that.  Feel free to call around if you wish.  I did.  Here is one academic article for you to get you started--but I'm sure this guy also "invented" and is full of shit.  http://www.secondsout.com/ringside/the-business-of-boxing/the-abcs-of-pay-per-view

As to pay substantially increasing.  You sure about that?  The average purse over the past 4 years (from reported sources) has barely moved at all--but I'm sure you've already run the numbers and come to this conclusion yourself too.  Hahahah. 

Thanks Cindy for checking.  So, my posts above regarding the numbers stand.  Still don't come close to adding up, different "business model" and all. 
 


Mace, if you don't think there are any differences in the amount of money it takes to run a show (now multiply that by how many shows they have) when you have 500-600 staff members on payroll (not including fighters) than you do when there is as low as 100 (and I know, you never *said* 100, you simply referenced the figure and I'm sure I'm just assuming you meant 100 when you didn't...) then I'm not sure what to say.

What are your thoughts on the change in entry level pay since thats what 99% of us are talking about?

 

Cindy

6/3/13 3:48 AM
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Macedawgg
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I'm not sure why you suppose it would cost more with additional labor (fixed costs).  Are you saying Zuffa is inefficient?  I assume Zuffa is highly efficient, and the additional labor works on other aspects of the many business categories encompassing the "UFC Wheel." 

As to the additional shows--sure, they run frequent shows.  Those shows obtain gates, TV/PPV revenues, merchandising, etc. Again, not sure what you are saying with additonal shows.  I don't assume Zuffa is inefficient, so not sure what your point is! 

6/3/13 2:19 PM
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IsmokeCrack
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Don't have exclusive contracts for lower tier fighters. That way they can fight more often and get paid for their brand (being in UFC) to smaller organizations.

They don't get paid minimum wage. This sport is becoming a joke.

If you could pay $600/$600 when you were losing $40 million, you can pay $15k/15k when your worth it $2,500,000

Stop giving us your gay ass (nick diaz style) excuses. Phone Post 3.0
6/3/13 2:27 PM
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HexRei
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Lobo8 - 
IGOTBELCHED - 
Lobo8 - Look up his record. He was 1-3 in the ufc. He cant expect to be getting good pay with that kind of record. Sucks but this is a tough sport and not everyone can make it.

How much does a low level nba player get? Or NFl? I don't know american sports numbers well, i know lebron who's the best gets 20 something mil, so i'd imagine the low level guys get decent pay.
In premier league football in the uk, although its the most watched sports league in the world, they get at the lowest levels around $80/70000 a week.
The fact that the ufc pay like this is disgusting. Dana may give this bullshit argument of "Look at boxing, look at boxing, they get paid shit all", to try and take the spotlight off of himself, however if thats the case when you're government is driving you're economy to hell does the President or Prime minister say "Look at Africa, look at Africa, they're driving their economy to hell".

The low level bench player argument doesn't apply to this. Bench players are still very important to teams for training practice, and substitutions. They help win games. These low level guys for the ufc aren't very important and are in a way filler for cards.But If they prove themselves and keep winning then they start to get the real perks of being a ufc fighter, recognition, pay and sponsorship. Just because you have few fight in the ufc doesn't automatically mean you deserve some perks. You have to win and be likeable by fans. You have to earn it. Look at connor mcgregor he came in with some hype and attention but was still put on the facebook prelims with low pay. He then proceeded to kick ass, immediately became a ufc fighter to watch out for, got 50k bonus. Oh and i bet he will get some awesome sponsors too. He didnt beg or cry for anything. He took what he wanted.

I don't think most people had ever heard of Connor before that fight... what hype and attention?

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