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UnderGround Forums >> ATN: Keith Kizer - WHY do TUEs for TRT Even EXIST?


5/20/13 5:04 PM
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Haulport
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It's already 2pm in las Vegas....Where is Mr. Kizer?

5/20/13 5:35 PM
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HexRei
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Haulport - 

It's already 2pm in las Vegas....Where is Mr. Kizer?


Erm... probably living his life and working, lol. why don't you email him instead of hollering at him on a message board?
5/20/13 6:00 PM
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dakotajudo
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I'm not sure I follow your logic.

I'll try to address your points individually. First, "if that banned substance is NOT tested for unless the ratio screen is above 6:1". The TE ratio is *a* test for a banned substance, but it is not by itself sufficient proof for punishment.

Consider a typical scenario. On a fight card with 15 bouts, there will be potentially 30 urine samples. It might take several days to process all samples; at the end, the chemist would provide a report stating that all samples were negative. This process would be repeated for each banned substance (or family of substances).

At this point, all fighters would have been tested for banned substances and there is no reason for more stringent testing.


An alternative scenario is that the chemist's report comes back with two samples (say, for our example, #14 and #23 of 30). In that case, a second round of test is performed, but only on samples 14 and 23 (or more likely, 14b and 23b - the original samples are usually split, so that accidental contamination of the first batch does not affect the results of the second batch).

At this point, we need to remember that no single chemical test is 100% accurate, and that there are legitimate reasons why a single sample from a single, non-cheating, subject would test positive for the TE test, so before any punishment is awarded, a confirmatory test is required.

"If you have a 10:1 ratio and that gets you suspended it no longer matters whether you used that banned substance."

A TE ratio, of any sort, shouldn't get a fighter suspended, unless there is other evidence. Failing a second test in most cases constitutes that evidence.

So, back to our example, samples 14 and 23 are subject to isotope ratio assay. And, again in our example, assume the carbon isotope ratio for #23 comes back as within normal ranges, but #14 falls outside limits. At this point, further inquiry into sample #23 would be dropped.

Note that I haven't said anything about subjects. As I understand it, during screening the names of the sources are not recorded. Only after a positive test will the specific fighter be considered.

So now the TUE comes into play. A commissioner would lookup the records and determine who the sample came from. Does the subject have a TUE? Do the preliminary tests suggest supra physiological doses (the data for the initial TE ratio does include a rough estimate of concentration)? Does the case warrant a hearing, or should a suspension be handed down automatically?

I think you're assuming that a TE ratio over 6 results in an automatic suspension, but I don't think that's the case - it's still a human judgement.

See http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/World_Anti-Doping_Program/WADP-IS-Laboratories/Technical_Documents/WADA_TD2004EAAS_Reporting_Evaluation_Testosterone_Epitestosterone_TE_Ratio_EN.pdf for more details about the WADA standard.



5/20/13 8:21 PM
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orcus
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Here's one thing about the CSAC's TUE:

"For a testosterone exemption specifically, Dodd said an applicant would be asked to provide blood tests prior to (30 days before) and after a contest to ensure levels were within acceptable margins. Dodd said that all materials submitted would be reviewed by the CSAC’s medical advisory board, which added an endocrinologist to its ranks on Monday for such cases."

So TUE guys actually have to provide blood so their actual test levels can be measured, at least in CSAC and in Pennsylvania's commission; presumably in NSAC as well.

This is what happened to Marquardt in Pennsylvania; his blood test weeks before fight time, during training camp, showed his testosterone level was too high and thus he was getting "enhanced" performance rather than "normal" performance. Thus the suspension.

So I'm not sure why people have this backward notion that the TRT guys are the cheaters. They are the ONLY guys who EVER have their actual testosterone measured to make sure it's within "normal" limits.

5/20/13 9:31 PM
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Haulport
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orcus - 

Here's one thing about the CSAC's TUE:

"For a testosterone exemption specifically, Dodd said an applicant would be asked to provide blood tests prior to (30 days before) and after a contest to ensure levels were within acceptable margins. Dodd said that all materials submitted would be reviewed by the CSAC’s medical advisory board, which added an endocrinologist to its ranks on Monday for such cases."

So TUE guys actually have to provide blood so their actual test levels can be measured, at least in CSAC and in Pennsylvania's commission; presumably in NSAC as well.

This is what happened to Marquardt in Pennsylvania; his blood test weeks before fight time, during training camp, showed his testosterone level was too high and thus he was getting "enhanced" performance rather than "normal" performance. Thus the suspension.

So I'm not sure why people have this backward notion that the TRT guys are the cheaters. They are the ONLY guys who EVER have their actual testosterone measured to make sure it's within "normal" limits.


Very interesting, thanks dude. But why would a fighter then ask for additional scrutiny? Why not take your chances and just cycle down and make sure your piss test was 6:1 or below?

This just gets more and more confusing...

5/20/13 9:37 PM
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orcus
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"Very interesting, thanks dude. But why would a fighter then ask for additional scrutiny? Why not take your chances and just cycle down and make sure your piss test was 6:1 or below?"

This is why I don't understand why fans and press are singling out the TUE guys for attack and suspicion. It seems like they are the only ones doing things above board and that there really is no incentive or positive to doing so other than a desire to do things by the book. There literally seems to be no advantage or "edge" to doing it this way rather than just roiding in secret and coming in under 6:1, which the TUE guys still have to do anyway.

5/20/13 9:39 PM
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Haulport
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dakotajudo - I'm not sure I follow your logic.

I'll try to address your points individually. First, "if that banned substance is NOT tested for unless the ratio screen is above 6:1". The TE ratio is *a* test for a banned substance, but it is not by itself sufficient proof for punishment.

Consider a typical scenario. On a fight card with 15 bouts, there will be potentially 30 urine samples. It might take several days to process all samples; at the end, the chemist would provide a report stating that all samples were negative. This process would be repeated for each banned substance (or family of substances).

At this point, all fighters would have been tested for banned substances and there is no reason for more stringent testing.


An alternative scenario is that the chemist's report comes back with two samples (say, for our example, #14 and #23 of 30). In that case, a second round of test is performed, but only on samples 14 and 23 (or more likely, 14b and 23b - the original samples are usually split, so that accidental contamination of the first batch does not affect the results of the second batch).

At this point, we need to remember that no single chemical test is 100% accurate, and that there are legitimate reasons why a single sample from a single, non-cheating, subject would test positive for the TE test, so before any punishment is awarded, a confirmatory test is required.

"If you have a 10:1 ratio and that gets you suspended it no longer matters whether you used that banned substance."

A TE ratio, of any sort, shouldn't get a fighter suspended, unless there is other evidence. Failing a second test in most cases constitutes that evidence.

So, back to our example, samples 14 and 23 are subject to isotope ratio assay. And, again in our example, assume the carbon isotope ratio for #23 comes back as within normal ranges, but #14 falls outside limits. At this point, further inquiry into sample #23 would be dropped.

Note that I haven't said anything about subjects. As I understand it, during screening the names of the sources are not recorded. Only after a positive test will the specific fighter be considered.

So now the TUE comes into play. A commissioner would lookup the records and determine who the sample came from. Does the subject have a TUE? Do the preliminary tests suggest supra physiological doses (the data for the initial TE ratio does include a rough estimate of concentration)? Does the case warrant a hearing, or should a suspension be handed down automatically?

I think you're assuming that a TE ratio over 6 results in an automatic suspension, but I don't think that's the case - it's still a human judgement.

See http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/World_Anti-Doping_Program/WADP-IS-Laboratories/Technical_Documents/WADA_TD2004EAAS_Reporting_Evaluation_Testosterone_Epitestosterone_TE_Ratio_EN.pdf for more details about the WADA standard.




I really do appreciate all the detail you are going into but it's not exactly the point again. Your last sentence is really to the point though. I am not sure, but it seems to be presented that if your test levels are over 6:1 then you are getting suspended. That is what, in the media, has been presented. Which may not be the case (thus the appeal for Keith to come on and educate us). If guys are coming in over 6:1 and not getting in trouble because they have a TUE then that is a big problem imo. But what orcus posted seems to contradict that.

So what we do know:

- If you have a greater than 6:1 ratio some sort of follow up occurs (suspension, investigation, fighter's choice to have the 2nd sample tested, an isotope test to see if it is synthetic test, etc.)

- If you ask for a TUE you bring additional scrutiny on yourself.

What we don't know:

- Why bring additional scrutiny on yourself if there is no seeming benefit? If a fighter can come in over 6:1 and NOT get suspended because he has a TUE then there is sufficient benefit to the additional scrutiny but blood tests during training camp aren't exactly a great thing for someone flooding their system with test.

5/20/13 9:41 PM
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Haulport
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orcus - 

"Very interesting, thanks dude. But why would a fighter then ask for additional scrutiny? Why not take your chances and just cycle down and make sure your piss test was 6:1 or below?"

This is why I don't understand why fans and press are singling out the TUE guys for attack and suspicion. It seems like they are the only ones doing things above board and that there really is no incentive or positive to doing so other than a desire to do things by the book. There literally seems to be no advantage or "edge" to doing it this way rather than just roiding in secret and coming in under 6:1, which the TUE guys still have to do anyway.


That what it seems like but I am somewhat suspicious. Why do something when you don't benefit? People act in their own best interests....

5/20/13 9:43 PM
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Haulport
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HexRei - 
Haulport - 

It's already 2pm in las Vegas....Where is Mr. Kizer?


Erm... probably living his life and working, lol. why don't you email him instead of hollering at him on a message board?

I think a public explanation is warrented here and none of the so-called "journalists" in MMA are interested in truly pursuing this in an intelligent fashion.

Also, my direct interactions with Mr. Kizer in the past do not inspire confidence that emailing him will amount to much...

5/20/13 9:45 PM
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orcus
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"If guys are coming in over 6:1 and not getting in trouble because they have a TUE then that is a big problem imo"

Well, this could be it. Maybe they can come in over that. But I don't see why that's a problem.

If they all do it like Pennsylvania and California -- blood tests in camp and after the fight -- then the ratio is ultimately irrelevant. The blood tests give their actual testosterone level, which is what would affect performance. We already knew they are externally supplementing their natural test, which is all that a high ratio tells us, so all that matters is their actual test level.

5/20/13 9:46 PM
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orcus
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Haulport - 
HexRei - 
Haulport - 

It's already 2pm in las Vegas....Where is Mr. Kizer?


Erm... probably living his life and working, lol. why don't you email him instead of hollering at him on a message board?

I think a public explanation is warrented here and none of the so-called "journalists" in MMA are interested in truly pursuing this in an intelligent fashion.

Also, my direct interactions with Mr. Kizer in the past do not inspire confidence that emailing him will amount to much...


I've emailed Keith and Nick Lembo with some questions about this. They both responded very promptly when I emailed them about weight rounding during the GSP "scandal", so hopefully they'll get back to me on this as well.

5/20/13 9:51 PM
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orcus
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Already got a response from Nick, now that's public service!

 

Does a fighter who has an exemption for TRT still have to test under the 6:1 limit for testosterone:epitestosterone?
 

Lembo: 4 to 1 in NJ

Does a fighter who has an exemption for TRT have to submit blood samples and/or testosterone tests at any time during training camp? 

Yes, blood, hair and/or urine

5/20/13 9:56 PM
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UGSlapshot
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I think if you can't fight without it then you need to retire.

No exemptions. Phone Post
5/20/13 9:57 PM
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DonFreedomFrye
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I e-mailed Keith Kizer earlier today regarding this. 

Here is my question:

 

I know fighters who have a TUE to undergo TRT have their actual serum testosterone levels tested through blood testing. My question is whether it's still relevant to test a fighter's T/E ratio when they have a TUE for TRT. In theory, people who undergo TRT should have an elevated T/E ratio above the normal 1:1 ratio and could possibly have one higher than the allowed threshold (6:1) while still maintaining "normal" serum testosterone levels. 

 

Are fighters with TUEs for TRT allowed to have a T/E ratio above your set threshold and do you even bother with testing T/E ratios for these fighters?

 

 

Here is Keith Kizer's response:
 

It is the actual serum testosterone levels tested through blood testing that matter most.  Nonetheless, all the athletes who have competed under a TRT TUE have been below 6:1 for the T/E ratio.

 

As with all steroid/drug use disciplinary matters, it is using the prohibited substance (without approval) that is the violation, not failing the test (that is the evidence).

 

I hope this helps.  Thank you for writing.

 

Keith Kizer

Executive Director

Nevada Athletic Commission

 
 
 
5/20/13 10:09 PM
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orcus
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Lembo added that they have to cease treatment for two months and then have a board certified endocrinologist test their levels to prove that they are indeed naturally low and provide a baseline measurement, and they will be randomly tested at least three times before and after the fight.

5/20/13 10:13 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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disbeliever - It stinks there is not anyway, so far as I understand it, to determine WHY a man's Testosterone is low and in need of TRT. I think it would make a world of difference if a man has other medical issues that cause his levels to drop, versus a man who roided and killed his own hormone system.

There kind of is, for athletes. At least the FSH and LH tests can help determine if the lowT is caused from prior steroid abuse. I believe Nevada actually makes you take those tests before they will grant you a TUE.

5/20/13 10:16 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus - 

"Very interesting, thanks dude. But why would a fighter then ask for additional scrutiny? Why not take your chances and just cycle down and make sure your piss test was 6:1 or below?"

This is why I don't understand why fans and press are singling out the TUE guys for attack and suspicion. It seems like they are the only ones doing things above board and that there really is no incentive or positive to doing so other than a desire to do things by the book. There literally seems to be no advantage or "edge" to doing it this way rather than just roiding in secret and coming in under 6:1, which the TUE guys still have to do anyway.


I thought it was 4:1 in most all places outside Nevada.

5/20/13 10:20 PM
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DonFreedomFrye
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA - 
orcus - 

"Very interesting, thanks dude. But why would a fighter then ask for additional scrutiny? Why not take your chances and just cycle down and make sure your piss test was 6:1 or below?"

This is why I don't understand why fans and press are singling out the TUE guys for attack and suspicion. It seems like they are the only ones doing things above board and that there really is no incentive or positive to doing so other than a desire to do things by the book. There literally seems to be no advantage or "edge" to doing it this way rather than just roiding in secret and coming in under 6:1, which the TUE guys still have to do anyway.


I thought it was 4:1 in most all places outside Nevada.


It is. 

5/20/13 10:28 PM
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Williambonney
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Who cares stop crying about TRT just because your fav fighter got KTFO or because you hate someone that's doing well and you need a excuse to bash
5/20/13 11:02 PM
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Kneeblock
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ttt

5/20/13 11:37 PM
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BobD
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This may help explain CIR testing.

5/20/13 11:50 PM
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UGPTT_Rear Naked Chode
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Williambonney - Who cares stop crying about TRT just because your fav fighter got KTFO or because you hate someone that's doing well and you need a excuse to bash

Most sensible post in this thread imo.
5/21/13 1:39 AM
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granderojo
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the ratio is used to catch cheaters. the actual blood level is what determines performance advantage.
5/21/13 11:31 AM
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Haulport
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orcus - 

Already got a response from Nick, now that's public service!

 

Does a fighter who has an exemption for TRT still have to test under the 6:1 limit for testosterone:epitestosterone?
 

Lembo: 4 to 1 in NJ

Does a fighter who has an exemption for TRT have to submit blood samples and/or testosterone tests at any time during training camp? 

Yes, blood, hair and/or urine


Excellent work!

That sounds rather solid for NJ. I still don't understand why anyone would ask for all this extra scrutiny. With Jersey it makes more sense if you really are all fucked up and have really low test. Good possibility you might test over 4:1 and at least you have blood proof of low levels previous to the ratio test.

5/21/13 1:01 PM
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orcus
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"With Jersey it makes more sense if you really are all fucked up and have really low test. Good possibility you might test over 4:1 and at least you have blood proof of low levels previous to the ratio test."

But Lembo said they still have to test under 4:1, seemingly regardless of what their levels are.

 

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