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UnderGround Forums >> the TRT thread to end all TRT threads


5/20/13 8:07 PM
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Anderson's BBC in my Goku
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orcus - 

"the average male is 1:1"

I think we both agree that the average UFC fighter is not exactly comparable to the average male.

"and based on the number of fighters in the UFC that allegedly have low T one can reasonably assume that if anything, fighters have lower t than the normal population"

Except that the ratio does not necessarily indicate low (or high) T. Why do you keep ignoring this? 

And do you think that  what is considered "low T" for a professional athlete might be higher than "low T" for a guy who just needs to push buttons on a computer all day?

" it indicates they realize the threshold they previously set was too high because 99% of the population is within 5:1"

Nope. They are considering matching the international standard of 4:1. The reason they don't just do it is because they don't know if any of their fighters would actually come in under that.


the average male is 1:1 its reasonable to assume that same ratio applies to fighters and anyone else absent evidence to the contrary

while its true that the ratio does not necessarily indicate low or high t, it is a pretty good predictor and its the only test that is being used, so thats what we are stuck with

5/20/13 8:08 PM
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Anderson's BBC in my Goku
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orcus - 

 

 


again, there are exceptions to every rule but until they change the method of testing we have to analzye things based on current realities

 

if you want to argue that the t:e test is not the best and perhaps is not all that rational to use, im with you there...but until then, we try to make the current system as reasonable as possible - we dont just throw our hands in the air and say fuck it

5/20/13 8:09 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/20/13 8:10 PM
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"the average male is 1:1 its reasonable to assume that same ratio applies to fighters and anyone else absent evidence to the contrary"

WADA doesn't consider genetic factors ... However, in several cases natural testosterone is high (greater than 4:1 ratio)... as documented and recorded in the following races:

 

Hispanics 5.8:1

Caucasian 5.7:1

Africans 5.6:1

 

 

The average male doesn't and can't do what professional fighters do; not even close. Why on earth would you assume they would have the same test ratio?
5/20/13 8:13 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/20/13 8:15 PM
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Anderson's BBC in my Goku - 
orcus - 

 

 


again, there are exceptions to every rule but until they change the method of testing we have to analzye things based on current realities

 

if you want to argue that the t:e test is not the best and perhaps is not all that rational to use, im with you there...but until then, we try to make the current system as reasonable as possible - we dont just throw our hands in the air and say fuck it

 

The point is anyone can do anything as long as their ratio is below 6:1.

 

A 1:1 guy who naturally has 600ng/dl of test who "supplements" and gets to 5:1 is going to have 3000ng/dl now. A guy with low t and a TRT TUE who is naturally 1:1 with 300ng/dl and comes in at 5:1 is going to have 1500ng/dl now. Which guy has the advantage? Again, explain to me how the guy who has to document his low T has the advantage when the other guy can "boost" his ratio just as high, but is 1) starting from a higher baseline multiplier, 2) doesn't have to document jack shit, and 3) is under zero scrutiny from the AC, the press, and the public?

5/20/13 8:18 PM
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MasterofMartialArts
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OP:

You stated that a 1:1 TE ratio is normal for an average man. Then go on to say that 3.7:1 or 5:1 is normal for 99 percent of males? What the hell are you talking about?

Explain please. Phone Post 3.0
5/20/13 8:26 PM
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Anderson's BBC in my Goku
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orcus - 

"the average male is 1:1 its reasonable to assume that same ratio applies to fighters and anyone else absent evidence to the contrary"

WADA doesn't consider genetic factors ... However, in several cases natural testosterone is high (greater than 4:1 ratio)... as documented and recorded in the following races:

 

Hispanics 5.8:1

Caucasian 5.7:1

Africans 5.6:1

 

 

The average male doesn't and can't do what professional fighters do; not even close. Why on earth would you assume they would have the same test ratio?

i assume it because as of now, thats all the evidence we have...its the null hypothesis...also when you consider the fact that there is a VASTLY greater percentage of fighters with low T relative to the population at large, if anything you should DISCOUNT that null hypothesis, not bolster it

5/20/13 8:28 PM
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Anderson's BBC in my Goku
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Edited: 05/20/13 8:29 PM
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MasterofMartialArts - OP:

You stated that a 1:1 TE ratio is normal for an average man. Then go on to say that 3.7:1 or 5:1 is normal for 99 percent of males? What the hell are you talking about?

Explain please. Phone Post 3.0

 

1:1 is average

 

5:1 is the 99th percentage (i.e.. 99% of the world has a ratio of 5:1 OR LOWER)

so if 100 IQ is average and 135 IQ is the 99th percentile...would you claim that someone with a 135 IQ is average?

 

 

5/20/13 8:45 PM
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orcus
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Edited: 05/20/13 8:56 PM
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".also when you consider the fact that there is a VASTLY greater percentage of fighters with low T relative to the population at large"

What is the percentage of fighters with low T, and what's the percentage for the population at large? And are they both using the same standard of "low"? And yet again, whether or not fighters and the general population have the same "average" RATIO doesn't mean they have the same average TEST.

Do you say anything that isn't just wild bullshit stated as fact?

"5:1 is the 99th percentage (i.e.. 99% of the world has a ratio of 5:1 OR LOWER)"

What percentage of the world are, or can be, professional athletes? What percentage of the world could fight for 15-25 minutes? Do you think it's more or less than 70 million?

"so if 100 IQ is average and 135 IQ is the 99th percentile...would you claim that someone with a 135 IQ is average?"

What is the relevance of this? A guy with 300ng/dL of test who supplements to 2:1 is not going to be in the 99th percentile for test, he is going to have 600ng/dL and be right in the middle, regardless of what his RATIO is. Alistair Overeem with his 190ng/dL could go to 3:1 and still have a test level that is below average.

5/20/13 9:20 PM
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colubrid1
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Traditional physicians who have not received advanced training in Anti-Aging Medicine typically believe that hormone levels should not be optimized or corrected unless they fall outside the "normal range". The problem is that the "normal range" is typically not age specific and dependent on the lab. It usually includes the range of what 90% of all tested fall into. This would mean that only 5% of all people tested would be considered either high or low.

Both total and free testosterone studies should be measured to adequately evaluate testosterone levels. Depending on the lab used, approximately 300-900 ng/dL are given as a normal laboratory range, for men ages 20-70. For females, this range is 15-70 ng/dL. Free testosterone levels average approximately 2% of the total, 55-200 pg/ml for men and 1-10 pg/ml for women. Free testosterone is the more valuable of the two, reflecting the amount of hormone available to perform useful work.

Relying on a 50-year age span (from ages 20 to 70) for a "normal range" is not useful. A decline of 70% from more youthful levels can produce numerous clinical problems, yet is declared "within normal range". A more accurate approach is using the upper end of normal range," adjusted for age-then maintain these levels over time, rather than letting them continually decline. This is the healthy or optimal range.

There is extensive evidence that replacing testosterone in 'hypogonadism' is warranted and is FDA approved. At sometime during his life a man will begin to experience a decline in testosterone levels, both free and total. It may be in his thirties, forties, or not until his fifties; however, it will drop eventually to a lower level than when he was twenty. If it drops below 300, then there is no controversy-it should be treated. But what about the 50 year old otherwise healthy male with a total testosterone of 500 ng/dl and a free testosterone level of 100 pg/dl who may have had a level of 800 when he was in his early twenties? Should he wait until he reaches the "magic" number of 300 for his total testosterone level before he starts TRT? Or is it sufficient that his level has already dropped over 35%, and he notices he has been having trouble building muscles at the gym, and having a tougher time keeping the weight off of his waist? This is the center of the controversy.

Two questions come to mind when considering this controversy. First, are there benefits to raising a testosterone level from 500 to 800 ng/dl? If so, are there any significant risks, both short and long term, in maintaining this level of testosterone with therapy?

A number of studies have been done in healthy young men in which doses of testosterone were given that raised their levels into the high adolescent range, 1000 to 2000 ng/dl. In all of these studies, lean muscle mass has increased and fat mass has decreased. Similar studies with lower doses have been done in moderately obese men; again, lean mass increased and fat decreased even more. Moreover, insulin resistance (a pre-diabetic state) improved, triglycerides decreased, and energy increased. None of these studies noted any increase in aggressive behavior that many people expect might happen with high doses of testosterone.

Many more studies have been published showing similar effects in older men (over 65) with mildly low testosterone levels. The NIA has published the results of studies of TRT on body composition (lean muscle and fat ratios) in 108 men which demonstrated a 6 lb. fat loss and 5 lb. lean muscle gain when the testosterone level was raised from an average of 370 to 640 ng/dl for 36 months. The same men had an increase in bone density if they started out with a low bone density. The accumulating evidence shows that whenever you raise the testosterone level-no matter what the starting level-you get benefits in body composition. We think that the dose of testosterone used in this study was too low and that if higher dose had been used even more impressive results would have been demonstrated, without any significant increase in adverse effects.

Short term risks, what we call side effects, are few. If a man had a propensity to develop acne as a teenager, this may be reactivated when the testosterone levels get raised back to adolescent levels. This can be effectively treated with topical or oral medications. The tendency to lose scalp hair can be exacerbated as well, but this also can be effectively treated with a medication that inhibits the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone called finasteride or Propecia.

The main concern that men have with regard to long term TRT is whether it will increase the risk of prostate cancer, BPH, and cardiovascular disease. At physiologic replacement levels-the range we keep our patients within-there is no evidence of any increase risk of prostate cancer or enlargement of the prostate to the point of symptoms. It is true that the longest prospective study is the three year NIA study-which didn't show any prostate problems-but the overwhelming majority of case-controlled, retrospective, epidemiological studies following men for many years show no increased risk in men whose testosterone levels are higher than average. The concern about TRT increasing the risk of prostate cancer stems from the well documented fact that prostate cancers shrink if you deprive them of testosterone; however, as with breast cancer, this does not prove a causal or initiating role. If one does have an occult (as yet undetected ) cancer, then it may cause it to grow, but we screen all our patients with a total PSA before starting TRT and we continue to monitor it twice yearly.

5/20/13 9:20 PM
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colubrid1
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The concern about a link between testosterone and heart disease comes from the following line of thinking: men have a higher incidence of heart disease than women; men have higher testosterone levels than women; therefore, higher testosterone levels may cause a greater incidence of heart disease. This is another example of the fallacious reasoning that plagues the field of hormone replacement therapy. Because two conditions are found in the same population, it does not necessarily follow that the one causes the other. For these two conditions-testosterone levels and heart disease-we have, in fact, the results of many studies that show just the opposite. This has been studied extensively and there is a greater incidence of heart disease in men with low testosterone levels than those with high levels. More dramatic evidence comes from the fact that giving testosterone intravenously during angina results in improvement in symptoms. Other studies have looked at the effect of TRT on cholesterol levels and have universally found a decrease in total cholesterol, LDL (bad cholesterol), and triglycerides, and no change or only a slight decrease in HDL (good cholesterol). And, as mentioned above, restoring youthful testosterone levels can reverse the metabolic syndrome that can increase the risk of cardiovascular disease.

Before moving on, we want to clarify some misconceptions about what testosterone is and is not. While testosterone is a member of the group of compounds known as 'anabolic steroids,' the muscle and bone building molecules, it is different from the kind this term often refers to, such as those that have been abused by body builders and professional athletes. These include decadurabolin, oxandrolone, and methyltestosterone which are different from testosterone in their molecular structure and not normally found in the human body. These are potent anabolic hormones, but they can have adverse effects on other organ systems, such as the brain and liver, due to this changed structure; therefore, while they have similar muscle building effects, the side effect profiles are not comparable. Because unscrupulous doctors and black marketers sold these drugs in high doses to young men and professional athletes, they, and testosterone along with them, became regulated as sched
5/20/13 9:22 PM
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colubrid1
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II substances like morphine and other narcotics. This has tarnished testosterone's image amongst doctors and the public to the detriment of many who would benefit from responsible well-monitored TRT.

So, as you can see, there are many controversies regarding TRT, despite numerous well documented benefits and minimal risks. Dr Zakany believes that all men regardless of age will benefit from optimizing their testosterone levels to the 700-900 range.

5/20/13 9:22 PM
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colubrid1
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II substances like morphine and other narcotics. This has tarnished testosterone's image amongst doctors and the public to the detriment of many who would benefit from responsible well-monitored TRT.

So, as you can see, there are many controversies regarding TRT, despite numerous well documented benefits and minimal risks. Dr Zakany believes that all men regardless of age will benefit from optimizing their testosterone levels to the 700-900 range.

5/20/13 9:24 PM
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HalfThisGameIs90PercentMental
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Some good points here but can't we all agree that by looking at some of these "low testosterone" athletes like Overeem it's quite laughable? I mean.....Jesus look at the size of that man, low T really? Phone Post 3.0
5/20/13 9:28 PM
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orcus
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HalfThisGameIs90PercentMental - Some good points here but can't we all agree that by looking at some of these "low testosterone" athletes like Overeem it's quite laughable? I mean.....Jesus look at the size of that man, low T really? Phone Post 3.0

He has low T (190)when he's not on anything. Obviously when he's juiced up his T is not low.

He tested positive at a 14:1 ratio; if his normal, non-roiding ratio was the average 1:1, then his test would have been at 2660ng/dL when juiced up to that degree.

5/20/13 9:42 PM
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MasterofMartialArts
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Anderson's BBC in my Goku -
MasterofMartialArts - OP:

You stated that a 1:1 TE ratio is normal for an average man. Then go on to say that 3.7:1 or 5:1 is normal for 99 percent of males? What the hell are you talking about?

Explain please. Phone Post 3.0

 

1:1 is average

 

5:1 is the 99th percentage (i.e.. 99% of the world has a ratio of 5:1 OR LOWER)

so if 100 IQ is average and 135 IQ is the 99th percentile...would you claim that someone with a 135 IQ is average?

 

 

The way it was worded confused me, but I understand now. Phone Post 3.0
5/20/13 10:00 PM
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HalfThisGameIs90PercentMental
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orcus -
HalfThisGameIs90PercentMental - Some good points here but can't we all agree that by looking at some of these "low testosterone" athletes like Overeem it's quite laughable? I mean.....Jesus look at the size of that man, low T really? Phone Post 3.0

He has low T (190)when he's not on anything. Obviously when he's juiced up his T is not low.

He tested positive at a 14:1 ratio; if his normal, non-roiding ratio was the average 1:1, then his test would have been at 2660ng/dL when juiced up to that degree.

That's my thoughts so its just a way to manipulate the system. Phone Post 3.0
5/20/13 10:46 PM
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orcus
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I don't understand what you mean.  Low T didn't help him manipulate the system whatsover and it won't help him in the future.

 

5/20/13 11:54 PM
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WoodenPupa
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colubrid1 - II substances like morphine and other narcotics. This has tarnished testosterone's image amongst doctors and the public to the detriment of many who would benefit from responsible well-monitored TRT.

So, as you can see, there are many controversies regarding TRT, despite numerous well documented benefits and minimal risks. Dr Zakany believes that all men regardless of age will benefit from optimizing their testosterone levels to the 700-900 range.


Thanks for posting all this colubrid1. What can you say about the issue of life-long dependency on TRT treatment after the patient undergoes it? Do you shrivel up into a withered raisin with moobs if you go off it?
5/20/13 11:59 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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UGCKIRTT_SonofJockstrap -

Didn't read anything past the first line, there are pro athletes in other sports that have a TUE for TRT. There are rules to regulate it and it is far more strict than MMA/Boxing, but it is still not blanket banned. There's at least one prominent NFL player on it.

One eh? Out of how many? Now compare that to the UFC roster... Phone Post
5/21/13 12:12 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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orcus -

I don't understand what you mean.  Low T didn't help him manipulate the system whatsover and it won't help him in the future.

 

Wait so you're saying that Overeem, a guy we all know roused the fuck out of his body for several years, and now suffers from "low T" (190), is not manipulating the system by being granted permission to take MORE steroids to counter act the years of steroid abuse?

How can you spin and justify that Overeem should be allowed to have trt?
Are you so blind to the environment that creates?

Allowing someone like Overeem to take more asteroids, given what we all know is causing his now "low T" is basically saying to every young MMA prospect out there:

Go ahead and roid the fuck out of yourself now, and once your T levels get low from it don't fret....we will just give you a permission slip to roid even more to fix it.

So fucking ignorant. The UFC pretends it is all about the health and well being of the fighters, but it turns the blind eye to the obvious things it COULD be doing. Phone Post
5/21/13 12:14 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Roided* (1st paragraph... not roused.) Phone Post
5/21/13 12:27 AM
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DNAsmoothie
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I agree with OP Phone Post 3.0
5/21/13 12:28 AM
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FightFanUK
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I would like to see ufc ban trt, why should a fighter who does not want to cheat have to fight someone who can   train harder and recover faster along with other things.

If you need TRT to be a fighter, do something else because it's unfair to the guys who are trying to reach the top without cheating.

  

 

5/21/13 12:35 AM
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Dana Stern
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History has shown that fighters who are on steroids, or using TRT don't necessarily have an advantage. Vitor lost fights on roids. Tim Sylvia, Chael, Hendo, Forrest, Mir, Bonner, and a number of other fighters have lost fights while on TRT or roids to fighters who weren't. I'm sure it helps in some aspects but the better fighter wins every time, steroids won't help a lesser skilled, less tough, less driven fighter beat on roids beat one who holds all those attributes without. Phone Post
5/21/13 12:41 AM
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daba
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Dana Stern - History has shown that fighters who are on steroids, or using TRT don't necessarily have an advantage. Vitor lost fights on roids. Tim Sylvia, Chael, Hendo, Forrest, Mir, Bonner, and a number of other fighters have lost fights while on TRT or roids to fighters who weren't. I'm sure it helps in some aspects but the better fighter wins every time, steroids won't help a lesser skilled, less tough, less driven fighter beat on roids beat one who holds all those attributes without. Phone Post
Still an advantage. If they weren't cheating they probably would've performed even worse.

Using TRT doesn't guarantee you'll win but it will make you stronger, faster and allow you to train harder. That is a huge advantage and unfair advantage. Phone Post 3.0

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