UnderGround Forums
 

HolyGround >> What is the Gospel?


6/4/13 10:42 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 102
770mdm - 

It was more than that.  Much of biblical understanding deals with the ideals Shepard societies embodied against the ideals of the farmer societies.  It wasn't a magic potion of blood on the door that set the Israelites free it was the message behind the blood. 

The whole God made flesh part?  I don't belive - we are all sons & daughters of God - but it is something I'd like to hear an answer to if you're willing?


Curious, the scripture according to Isaiah 9:6. Do you not believe the messiah you're waiting for is going to be God in the flesh?
6/4/13 11:33 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
176 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29668
Saint Stevo - 
reverend john - But the word gospel, is not the word salvation. Salvation is not the gospel, the gospel is salvation and more. The gospel is discipleship, it is spiritual warfare, it is standing for the oppressed, and against the powers of the world, and it is salvation.

Paul was written before the gospels, so I take them to explain him, not the other way around.

rev

The Gospel is salvation as according to what Paul said in 1Corinthians 15:1-4.

I'm confused when you said in the first line the gospel is not salvation and then at the last line you said it is salvation.

I'm not saying the word gospel is the word salvation but however the Gospel is what brought our salvation. I have no problem with you pointing out that it brings discipleship and other topics you said but you cannot leave out the death, burial and resurrection of the word Gospel.

It doesn't matter to me when Paul wrote the epistles. The bottom line is the Gospel happened before Paul whether he wrote first or not.

It is like this:

within mma we have discovered the expediency and power of brazilian jiu jitsu so that we may fight well on the ground, and even prevail when on the bottom of a much larger opponent.

But mma is more than just brazilian jiu jitsu. MMA is wrestling, kickboxing, jiu jitsu, judo, karate all mixed into one complete whole.

The gospel as Jesus proclaimed, (note this is very important, I am telling you Jesus himself declared this is the gospel, and nothing Paul says would countermand or lesson what Jesus said even if it may seem so to us reading in our context), is that the kingdom of God is come and we can turn from the kingdoms of the world, and begin to walk in this new kingdom. This is salvation, and discipleship, and spiritual warfare, and sacrifice ect.

Though the entire bible is true, we understand it through Jesus not the other way around.

rev
6/4/13 11:44 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 108
reverend john - 
Saint Stevo - 
reverend john - But the word gospel, is not the word salvation. Salvation is not the gospel, the gospel is salvation and more. The gospel is discipleship, it is spiritual warfare, it is standing for the oppressed, and against the powers of the world, and it is salvation.

Paul was written before the gospels, so I take them to explain him, not the other way around.

rev

The Gospel is salvation as according to what Paul said in 1Corinthians 15:1-4.

I'm confused when you said in the first line the gospel is not salvation and then at the last line you said it is salvation.

I'm not saying the word gospel is the word salvation but however the Gospel is what brought our salvation. I have no problem with you pointing out that it brings discipleship and other topics you said but you cannot leave out the death, burial and resurrection of the word Gospel.

It doesn't matter to me when Paul wrote the epistles. The bottom line is the Gospel happened before Paul whether he wrote first or not.

It is like this:

within mma we have discovered the expediency and power of brazilian jiu jitsu so that we may fight well on the ground, and even prevail when on the bottom of a much larger opponent.

But mma is more than just brazilian jiu jitsu. MMA is wrestling, kickboxing, jiu jitsu, judo, karate all mixed into one complete whole.

The gospel as Jesus proclaimed, (note this is very important, I am telling you Jesus himself declared this is the gospel, and nothing Paul says would countermand or lesson what Jesus said even if it may seem so to us reading in our context), is that the kingdom of God is come and we can turn from the kingdoms of the world, and begin to walk in this new kingdom. This is salvation, and discipleship, and spiritual warfare, and sacrifice ect.

Though the entire bible is true, we understand it through Jesus not the other way around.

rev

I don't disagree that Jesus brought the kingdom but he did it by his death burial and resurrection.

Answer me this. How is one born into this kingdom that Jesus talked about?
6/4/13 11:51 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1581
Saint Stevo - 
770mdm - 

It was more than that.  Much of biblical understanding deals with the ideals Shepard societies embodied against the ideals of the farmer societies.  It wasn't a magic potion of blood on the door that set the Israelites free it was the message behind the blood. 

The whole God made flesh part?  I don't belive - we are all sons & daughters of God - but it is something I'd like to hear an answer to if you're willing?


Curious, the scripture according to Isaiah 9:6. Do you not believe the messiah you're waiting for is going to be God in the flesh?

No.  In Jewish thought the Massiah or Moshiach is not God but a messanger or deliverer sent by God.  The Massiah will be human in all ways.  But I have trouble with the idea of a one Massiah deliverer thing.  I'm not sure there will be this One Massiah.  I wonder if God sends us individuals to recalibrate us back on track to focus our attention on him and his message not the people delivering them - although these individuals are to be reverred they are not to be worshiped. 

6/4/13 12:14 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
176 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29674
Saint Stevo - 
reverend john - 
Saint Stevo - 
reverend john - But the word gospel, is not the word salvation. Salvation is not the gospel, the gospel is salvation and more. The gospel is discipleship, it is spiritual warfare, it is standing for the oppressed, and against the powers of the world, and it is salvation.

Paul was written before the gospels, so I take them to explain him, not the other way around.

rev

The Gospel is salvation as according to what Paul said in 1Corinthians 15:1-4.

I'm confused when you said in the first line the gospel is not salvation and then at the last line you said it is salvation.

I'm not saying the word gospel is the word salvation but however the Gospel is what brought our salvation. I have no problem with you pointing out that it brings discipleship and other topics you said but you cannot leave out the death, burial and resurrection of the word Gospel.

It doesn't matter to me when Paul wrote the epistles. The bottom line is the Gospel happened before Paul whether he wrote first or not.

It is like this:

within mma we have discovered the expediency and power of brazilian jiu jitsu so that we may fight well on the ground, and even prevail when on the bottom of a much larger opponent.

But mma is more than just brazilian jiu jitsu. MMA is wrestling, kickboxing, jiu jitsu, judo, karate all mixed into one complete whole.

The gospel as Jesus proclaimed, (note this is very important, I am telling you Jesus himself declared this is the gospel, and nothing Paul says would countermand or lesson what Jesus said even if it may seem so to us reading in our context), is that the kingdom of God is come and we can turn from the kingdoms of the world, and begin to walk in this new kingdom. This is salvation, and discipleship, and spiritual warfare, and sacrifice ect.

Though the entire bible is true, we understand it through Jesus not the other way around.

rev

I don't disagree that Jesus brought the kingdom but he did it by his death burial and resurrection.

Answer me this. How is one born into this kingdom that Jesus talked about?

how were the disciples born into it?

rev
6/4/13 12:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
176 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29675
is there something I am missing, you keeps talking about the burial and ressurection as if I do not recognize them, I absolutely do.

rev
6/4/13 12:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 109
John 3:5 to be born into the kingdom. All was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4 after Jesus death burial and resurrection. They was baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Holy Ghost.

No one received the Kingdom till the day of Pentecost. Peter received the Keys to the kingdom. Then Peter gave the keys in Acts 2:38. The first church that was built upon Jesus. Who's the Rock that the church was built upon.
6/4/13 12:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
176 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29677
so... when Jesus said the kingdom is in your midst he was speaking of himself yes? And then when he died and resurrected the kingdom became present within those of us that have been filled with the Spirit of Christ true? This kingdom is not only the promise of salvation from hell, as it is present in our world here and now.

rev
6/4/13 1:21 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 112
reverend john - so... when Jesus said the kingdom is in your midst he was speaking of himself yes? And then when he died and resurrected the kingdom became present within those of us that have been filled with the Spirit of Christ true? This kingdom is not only the promise of salvation from hell, as it is present in our world here and now.

rev

The kingdom is at hand. I believe you're referring to, correct? Yes we are born into the kingdom when we receive his spirit.

A spirit born person is an ambassador. Meaning he represents the kingdom. Just like American embassies sit in other countries. It doesn't mean the other country is America. The same as for here on Earth. The kingdom doesn't fully come until the day of the Lord here on earth. The king dwells inside the Holy Ghost filled person.
6/4/13 1:32 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
176 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29683
an embassy is considered foreign land. If you walk into an american embassy for all legal purposes you are on American soil. The church is called to be an embassy, to be the existence of a foreign government on earth. That does mean that we must at times resist the natural governments.

If you were a Christian in Germany at the time of Hitler, then you and your church are part of Gods kingdom, on earth, there in the midst of that evil. So does that mean you stand by and do nothing? do you let millions of people get murdered? Of course not. Now I am not saying take up arms and fight against the nazis, what I am saying is that to be in God's kingdom, in the middle of the kingdoms of the world, we must act. In that situation, perhaps it is in hiding Jews. Or like they danes did when the Jews were told to sew a star of david on their clothing all of the danes did so, standing in solidarity with the oppressed. Whatever it is, we are called to action in the midst of our world.

The gospel is that we do not need to overthrow the rulers of this world, but rather we can live in obedience to the true ruler of all. This will be culminated in the full kingdom coming in all of its glory in the return of Christ, but we are called to live in that reality now. Its now, and not yet.

rev
6/4/13 10:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 117
reverend john - an embassy is considered foreign land. If you walk into an american embassy for all legal purposes you are on American soil. The church is called to be an embassy, to be the existence of a foreign government on earth. That does mean that we must at times resist the natural governments.

If you were a Christian in Germany at the time of Hitler, then you and your church are part of Gods kingdom, on earth, there in the midst of that evil. So does that mean you stand by and do nothing? do you let millions of people get murdered? Of course not. Now I am not saying take up arms and fight against the nazis, what I am saying is that to be in God's kingdom, in the middle of the kingdoms of the world, we must act. In that situation, perhaps it is in hiding Jews. Or like they danes did when the Jews were told to sew a star of david on their clothing all of the danes did so, standing in solidarity with the oppressed. Whatever it is, we are called to action in the midst of our world.

The gospel is that we do not need to overthrow the rulers of this world, but rather we can live in obedience to the true ruler of all. This will be culminated in the full kingdom coming in all of its glory in the return of Christ, but we are called to live in that reality now. Its now, and not yet.

rev

Yes the Gospel. Which is Jesus death burial and resurrection. : )
6/4/13 11:14 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
176 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29693
funny, Jesus didn't say that but I suppose you know better

rev
6/5/13 9:18 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 120
reverend john - funny, Jesus didn't say that but I suppose you know better

rev

Jesus gave revelation of the Gospel throughout the 4 Gospels of his death, burial and resurrection.

The Gospel is about the kingdom that was coming and came through the d,b, and r. This was what Jesus talked about to the people how he'll bring them rest and bread. This is not physical rest or food but it's the rest of the comforter dwelling inside of you (Isaiah 28:11-12). I've seen your topics of trying to change society. Jesus did not come to changes how society lives but he came to save all from sin.

The only true oppressor in our lives is ourselves. Our hearts that continually wants evil (sin). The only way to conquer sin is through the HG. Jesus talked about the living water which is the HG flowing through you. He talked about how we will eat his flesh and drink his blood. This is the HG.

How did this all come about. Through the death,burial and resurrection. This is why Paul sums it up in 1Corinthians 15:1-4 to explain that the Gospel is the death, burial and resurrection according to the scriptures. Not a revolution or to change yourself. I'm sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you and agree with Paul alone according to the scriptures. Oh and yes Jesus did say it. It's called getting revelation. Praise the Lord!
6/5/13 1:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
176 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29696
Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is here, repent and believe this gospel (imperial proclamation)" That is what Jesus said. If you want to take Pauls statement as more authoritative than Jesus, then I would suggest you may not truly be understanding what Paul was saying.

But if Jesus was only concerned with the individual change or heart why did he say quite clearly that if you don't do these society changing things, you would go to hell? Matt 25 The original church, as read in acts 2 and 4 were far from individual freedom but creating an alternative society, that was in a confrontational relation with the current culture. They lived so differently as a community, that they were called "the way" not the chosen individuals.

rev
6/11/13 10:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 125
reverend john - Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is here, repent and believe this gospel (imperial proclamation)" That is what Jesus said. If you want to take Pauls statement as more authoritative than Jesus, then I would suggest you may not truly be understanding what Paul was saying.

But if Jesus was only concerned with the individual change or heart why did he say quite clearly that if you don't do these society changing things, you would go to hell? Matt 25 The original church, as read in acts 2 and 4 were far from individual freedom but creating an alternative society, that was in a confrontational relation with the current culture. They lived so differently as a community, that they were called "the way" not the chosen individuals.

rev

Society changing things? Jesus was not into politics. God was here to fulfill what needed to be done. Jesus explained throughout the 4 Gospels what changes we need to do in the heart. He was not a revolutionist against a tyrannical society as Judas wanted him to be.

Paul explain the Gospel in a nut shell in 1Corinth. 15:1-4. Jesus spoke repent and believe the Gospel in Mark 1:15.

The good news didnt even make it pass verse 15. So it wasn't explained yet. The Gospel as a whole is the death burial and resurrection.

6/12/13 9:05 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1608

I think Jesus' ministry was political - not for the sake of politics, for the sake of God and the Isrealite people. 

6/12/13 2:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 126
I agree for the zealot and Sanhedrin sake. It's political. For Jesus part it was not.
6/12/13 3:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1609

I don't necesarily think Jesus was running for office I just think his popularity and message was influencing the landscape.  I do think he was anti-Roman and pro Jewish (Israelite). 

Look, not comparing Jesus to street gangs but many street gangs are political statements against the established order of things.  You don't see members of MS-13 running for office but they formulated because of political dissatisfaction.  Their messages are voiced in the hopes they influence the landscape. 

 

 

6/17/13 4:43 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
176 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29713
when you say, the empire of God is here in the Shadow of the Roman Empire you are being political. When you name Jesus as the son of God when Caesar is known as the son of god you are being political. When you use the world evangelion (gospel) which means imperial herald of good news, you are being political. When you confront the religious system of the temple you are being political. To declare deliverance to the captives is political. Jesus was, and is political. Not in a sense of over throw the government, but in the sense of ignore or defy it, and in as much as is possible come out from her.

rev
6/17/13 11:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 127
Political def Merriam web - 1 a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government
b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2 : of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3 : organized in governmental terms <political units>
4 : involving or charged or concerned with acts against a government or a political system <political prisoners>

I don't see Jesus taking a Pharisees seat or a Sadducees seat. Jesus was not against the government of Ceaser and he taught to pay what's owed to them and the epistles taught us to obey the Laws of the land.

So no, Jesus was not a politician. The Kingdom of God did not go against the Roman Empire. Rather it obeyed the laws of it.

There's no politics when it comes to Gods kingdom when he comes to just take it anyways.
6/18/13 12:30 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1613

There's no politics when it comes to Gods kingdom when he comes to just take it anyways.

http://www.amazon.com/Created-Equal-Ancient-Political-Thought/dp/0199832404/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1371529438&sr=1-1&keywords=Joshua+Berman

The Bible asserts the equality of all people in its statement that everyone, without distinction, is created in the image of God. This was remarkable for the period in which it was written. Later, Thomas Jefferson captured, actually copied, this biblical teaching when he wrote "all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights."

In contrast to the ancients, all Israelites are equal citizens because all were liberated from Egyptian bondage, all stood at Mount Sinai to receive the law, and all entered into a covenant with God; in a word, all participated in the past and have a right and duty to be involved in the present and future. This scriptural individual responsibility - highlighted by the oft-repeated biblical use of the singular "you," an address to each Israelite separately - is unfortunately still underemphasized in modern societies.

"Western tradition's first prescription for an economic order that seeks to minimize extreme advantage and the distinctions of class based on wealth." The Israelites were able to create a dynamic free society, upon which the American Revolution based itself, without the dangers of extreme socialism that is characteristic of Democrats.

6/18/13 12:54 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
176 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29714
steve you just posted the definition that states right in it what I am talking about. You are so stuck on your own argument that you don't even see that you posted the proof of what I said.

Politics is the act of governance. It is the way in which a community conducts its social self. When Jesus says to forgive each other, or give the procedure for dealing with conflict in the community in Matthew 18, or when he challenges the authority of the temple cult that is all about governance.

I said over and over again that Jesus wasn't trying to overthrow the government. It is obvious that he wasn't running for emperor or high priest. What he said is that there is a new government, God's government, and to be a citizen it requires your allegiance to it and not any other. Meaning there will be clashes with existing power structures.

rev
6/18/13 6:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kung Fu Joe
4 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/27/09
Posts: 928
For what it's worth, the Rev's position runs fairly in line with the common understanding of secular scholarship on the issue.

Most secular scholars believe that Jesus was primarily a Jewish apocalypticist. However, it is important to remember that Jewish apocalypticism of the Roman period was inextricably intertwined with the dichotomy of Israel against the Empire. The Messiah was supposed to overthrow the Roman oppression in order to establish the Kingdom of God on Earth.

Some scholars-- like Dr. Dale Martin-- even argue that Jesus was leading a tiny, armed insurrection in Jerusalem in his final week of life.

There was definitely a political aspect to Jesus' ministry.
6/18/13 2:10 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
176 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29715
I reject any idea of an armed insurrection however. It seems to me that Jesus came talking about a revolution, but one that sought to deny the power of those that seek to dethrone God. The difference between me and secular scholars is that I do not believe its an either or thing. I think the church was subverted by its marriage to state, and the "two kingdom" ethic was embraced. Which means we must re-embrace the political nature of Jesus message. This does not mean that we leave the spiritual message, that the miracles were not true, or that the resurrection was myth.

The problem I see in most opposing views is that they perpetrate a black and white condition. Like the discussion with Steve, he immediately puts me into the "other" camp. Its either this or that! But it isn't. Jesus was political. Jesus was spiritual. To follow Jesus we must embrace all of Jesus, not just the parts we like, or have been taught to value.

rev
6/19/13 2:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 131
reverend john - I reject any idea of an armed insurrection however. It seems to me that Jesus came talking about a revolution, but one that sought to deny the power of those that seek to dethrone God. The difference between me and secular scholars is that I do not believe its an either or thing. I think the church was subverted by its marriage to state, and the "two kingdom" ethic was embraced. Which means we must re-embrace the political nature of Jesus message. This does not mean that we leave the spiritual message, that the miracles were not true, or that the resurrection was myth.

The problem I see in most opposing views is that they perpetrate a black and white condition. Like the discussion with Steve, he immediately puts me into the "other" camp. Its either this or that! But it isn't. Jesus was political. Jesus was spiritual. To follow Jesus we must embrace all of Jesus, not just the parts we like, or have been taught to value.

rev

The problem of what you're trying to teach is that Jesus said plant a tree and hold up a peace sign toward government to change society.

What I'm pointing out to you is that Jesus said not to worry about the cares of the world. Society change comes when we all have the Holy Ghost. We all do not have it, is the case.

Luke 21
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This is why understanding what the Gospel is important. Once we have the understanding that it's like Paul has been explaining that it's Jesus death burial and resurrection.
We have the conviction in our hearts to accept it and follow what Jesus commanded or we can reject it.

You've still haven't answered what was the final politic he was against. Sanhedrin, Roman Gov., or Sin overall mankind.

I agree, we must accept all of what Jesus said and did. However we are not told to make society changes but we are told to preach the Gospel.

If we are to make society changes then we must pick up our signs and follow the Westboro baptist church to make changes to society, right? Or did Jesus say to vote to be democrat or republican? Which is it?

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.