UnderGround Forums
 

HolyGround >> About the cross and atonement ?


6/3/13 7:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
150 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29663
 
This is something that I would like to you not just try and figure out why I am wrong, as I am not actually making any strong definitive statements. But take some time to wrestle with this:

We know that the Hebrew scriptures are types and shadows. That through Christ we understand them, and in Christ we see fulfillment. So here is the thing:

The feasts were, are very important. We see the feasts as milestones of the history of Christianity. Passover, pentecost and rosh hashona are how we see the gospel story breaking into the world.

But when we talk about Jesus death, we almost always focus on his punishment for our sin, and his blood being shed for our sin, and him providing atonement. Now like I said, I am not saying this is untrue, or challenging this at all. But, what I am asking is this? If this was the central tenet of Jesus death, then why did he himself tie the event, and the ritual to remember it not to the feast of atonement Yom Kippur but the feast of passover?

At yom kippur the lamb is slain for the sins of the nation, the nation focuses on its sin, and the covering of it by the blood shed in the holy of holies. But the passover celebrates the slaying of the lamb for life, to conquer death, to be set free from the control and slavery of the world, and to begin a path through the desert on the way to the promised land. If Jesus was so interested in the idea of liberation, and walking into our inheritance as sons and daughters of the Father... then why don't we focus as much on that as we do the forgiveness part?

rev
6/3/13 10:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
RoninBT
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/9/05
Posts: 85
It is my understanding that many in Judaism believe that the messiah will come in one of two ways: as a suffering servant (messiah ben joseph) or a conquering king (messiah ben david). Christians say he came as the suffering servant and will come as the conquering king. If the Christians are right then presumably his work is not complete requiring him to come back and finish the job. If he was THE Passover sacrifice and he will ultimately provide atonement on THE Yom kippor then maybe those two sacrifices are one in the same.

If you ask most religious people (christian or jewish) what annual Yom kippor animal sacrifice provided atonement for the people I think most would say “one of the two goats”. When I go back and read Lev. 16 closely it appears that this is incorrect. The goat was a sin offering and provided atonement for the holy place (vs 5 & 15-16). The ram was a burnt offering and provided atonement for Aaron and the people (vs 3, 5 & 24). I think this adds a little weight to the idea that the Passover sacrifice (a lamb), which redeemed the first born, and the Yom Kippor sacrifice (a ram), which provides atonement for the people, are pictures of the same sacrifice but separated by time.

Additionally:

Many scholars have thematically related the binding of Isaac (the akedah; Gen. 22) to the Passover. If this relationship is real then I find it interesting that Abraham says God will provide a lamb but the substitute sacrifice for Isaac ended up being a ram.

Relative to the Passover redeeming the firstborn: Messiah was physically a firstborn and is repeatedly referred to as firstborn (Col 1:15,18 & Rev 1:5).

I have been guilty of throwing the word atonement (kippor) around but not really understanding what it means. It has a concrete physical meaning and it’s not washing or purifying. It literally means to cover. The smoke and aroma of the sacrifices would rise above the tabernacle and literally cover the camp. I’m not sure how this relates to the conversation but I find it interesting.

I think my case holds some water even if you do not believe Jesus is the messiah, so maybe 770 will weight in.

I hope my comments did not come off as too preachy. This is a subject of interest for me and I get excited.
6/4/13 12:27 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
150 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29664
not at all mate

rev
6/4/13 9:35 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1577
The Daily Show with Jon StewartMon - Thurs 11p / 10c
Faith/Off - Easter vs. Passover
www.thedailyshow.com
Daily Show Full EpisodesIndecision Political HumorThe Daily Show on Facebook

Easter vs Passover!

6/4/13 10:48 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1578

Passover is about the deliverance from slavery to freedom.  God delivered the Isrealites from Mitzryam - meaning Constraint, Egypt isn't mentioned by name.  The time is politically charged because as the Israelites were loosing their own identity that made them special to God they were adopting an identity abhorant to him.  Instead of adhearing to Gods word they lapsed into the possibility of worshiping another human - who's office eventually turned on them.  God delivered them from the collective and personal tyranical rule of a self-appointed man-god to the God who's image humanity was fashioned after - Incorporial and trans-natural. 

Yom Kippur is about forgiveness & hope.  After the episode of the Golden Calf Moses went back up to the mountain to petition God not to destroy the Israelites.  Another 40 days on the mountain.  Yom Kippur is the day he came down announcing God forgave. 

The term sacrifice is insufficient.  It comes from two latin root words sacer - holy and facere - to make.  I believe Christianity rejected the institution of animal sacrifice because it contended God had no use for them and that worship was to be expressed through piety and righteousness.  Moreover Jesus had offered the ultimate sacrifice - his own life - on behalf of mankind, and rendering all further sacrifice irrelevant and unnecessary.  Within the Christian view of the meaning of sacrifice, vows of abstinence and even maryrdom could be described as acts of sacrifice, because they embodied the spirit of abnegation and renunciation. 

A more modern association of the Christian term Sacrifice would be Forfiture.  In its modern, nonritual meaning, sacrifice implies abnegation by one party, without necessarily implying that another part receives what has been renounced.  It is in this sense that we speak of a fallen soldier as one who sacrificed his life, or of an item in a budget that was sacrificed.  In each case, the object that was sacrificed was not transferred from one party to another.  Rather, the object experienced total negation and nullification. 

The Hebrew word Korban bears none of these undertones.  The word Korban comes from the root k.r.v., meaning "close".  The word Korban literally means "that which has been brought close," and it refers to the 'sacrifice' as something that enters into God's presencein the Sanctuary.  Korbanot offerings are emotional and spiritual actions the Isrealites take to become closer with God.  - Joshua Berman "The Temple Its Symbolism and Meaning Then and Now."

 

6/4/13 10:49 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 103
reverend john - This is something that I would like to you not just try and figure out why I am wrong, as I am not actually making any strong definitive statements. But take some time to wrestle with this:

We know that the Hebrew scriptures are types and shadows. That through Christ we understand them, and in Christ we see fulfillment. So here is the thing:

The feasts were, are very important. We see the feasts as milestones of the history of Christianity. Passover, pentecost and rosh hashona are how we see the gospel story breaking into the world.

But when we talk about Jesus death, we almost always focus on his punishment for our sin, and his blood being shed for our sin, and him providing atonement. Now like I said, I am not saying this is untrue, or challenging this at all. But, what I am asking is this? If this was the central tenet of Jesus death, then why did he himself tie the event, and the ritual to remember it not to the feast of atonement Yom Kippur but the feast of passover?

At yom kippur the lamb is slain for the sins of the nation, the nation focuses on its sin, and the covering of it by the blood shed in the holy of holies. But the passover celebrates the slaying of the lamb for life, to conquer death, to be set free from the control and slavery of the world, and to begin a path through the desert on the way to the promised land. If Jesus was so interested in the idea of liberation, and walking into our inheritance as sons and daughters of the Father... then why don't we focus as much on that as we do the forgiveness part?

rev

When you say set free from the slavery of the World. Do you mean the physical world or the world of sin according to Jesus passover?
6/4/13 11:25 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
150 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29667
Well the world is sin. In our modern Christian culture we make much about personal sin, and sinfulness but we often do not recognize cultural sin. Jesus spoke so often about cultural sin, and came to not only break the bindings of sin on a personal level, but also allow us to stand against societal sin. Violence, oppression, poverty these are all things that a Christian opposes, just as we would oppose the personal sins of lust, greed and pride.

So when Jesus ties his death not to Yom kippur but to the passover he is calling us to break free from the kingdoms of the world. Egypts are constant, and present.

rev
6/4/13 11:31 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gord96
69 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/04/13 11:31 AM
Member Since: 3/26/03
Posts: 14419
The more one looks into Jesus and his culture and what he did, the more you realize that most Christianity today really isn't about Jesus at all. <br /><br />It's like Jesus was pointing at something, trying to show us. But instead of going after what he was pointing at, people just worship his finger that is doing the pointing.
6/4/13 11:39 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 107
reverend john - Well the world is sin. In our modern Christian culture we make much about personal sin, and sinfulness but we often do not recognize cultural sin. Jesus spoke so often about cultural sin, and came to not only break the bindings of sin on a personal level, but also allow us to stand against societal sin. Violence, oppression, poverty these are all things that a Christian opposes, just as we would oppose the personal sins of lust, greed and pride.

So when Jesus ties his death not to Yom kippur but to the passover he is calling us to break free from the kingdoms of the world. Egypts are constant, and present.

rev

This sounds like a revolution Jesus. Which is what Judas, the Jews and barabbas wanted. Excuse me if I spell names wrong.

Anyhow. Jesus did not call christians to be politicians but he called for all to witness the Gospel and salvation to bring everyone into church. Culture will always be around. This is why Paul explains that the elect are ambassadors
(2Corinth. 5:20)meaning we are not of this world. Jesus also said not to worry about the cares of this world (Luke 21:34). The root of the problem is man does not have God's spirit. When you provide the truth of the spirit born into man. Everything else will fall into place.

As a christian to state that we have to worry about changing the worlds culture is false. The days of Noah of all the wickedness will rise again. Why? because Jesus said it will (Matt. 24:37)
6/4/13 11:39 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1579

In both cases the way the Jewish people celebrate Passover & Yom Kippur there is a "vice" used in the beginning with a much needed alleviated ending.  The Passover Meal and it's customes are designed to bring the participant through a journey of slavery to redemption.  On Yom Kippur we fast all day - no water or food for 24 hours then we break that fast with a meal.  The day is comprised of us individually and collectively petitioning God for forgiveness for our transgressions over the past year and annulling any and all vows we have made.  It is a deeply spiritual experience for anyone who's done it correctly.  The fasting isn't our sacrifice to God in any way it's our time to become angelic like - as angels and God do not "eat" or "drink". 

The sacrifices are also interesting.  On Yom Kippur the Kohen Gadol affixed a strip of red wool to the horns of the 'scapegoat' sent off to Azazel.  This goat was pushed off the side of a cliff.  The Kohen Gadol would reciet individual and collective prayers and send him on his way.  Another such strip of wool was tied to the neck of the goat to be offered as the sin-offering. 

The Jewish people mimic the sacrifices still today.  On Yom Kippur we perform a ritual called Kaparot where some actually wave a chicken over our heads while simultaneously reciting verbage essentially transferring our guilt from us onto the chicken then we slaughter it.  Many people today use money in proxi of the Chicken.  On Passover the Shank bone is on the Sedar Plate in rememberance of the Lamb that was sacrificed whose blood marked the doors of the Israelites to distinguish them from the Egyptians so to speak.  Those who contend and wrestle with God to those living in constraint. 

We don't actually focus on one thing or another during our observances.  In all Jewish Holidays we journey through them individually and collectively in relation to God. 

6/4/13 11:46 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1580
gord96 - The more one looks into Jesus and his culture and what he did, the more you realize that most Christianity today really isn't about Jesus at all. <br /><br />It's like Jesus was pointing at something, trying to show us. But instead of going after what he was pointing at, people just worship his finger that is doing the pointing.

This is a big reason Jesus isn't God and shouldn't be proclaimed as such.  Moses isn't mentioned even once in the Passover Haggadah for this very reason.  To show Moses isn't God - there is a difference between the message and the messanger.  People naturally want the messanger to be God.  I've seen it happen before and as engratiating as it is it is wrong.  Loving Jesus is cool but proclaiming him God is all beside the point that God is trying to convey.

6/4/13 11:47 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MoustacheRider69
340 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/11/08
Posts: 5822
This thread is VERY interesting. Phone Post
6/4/13 12:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
150 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29671
Saint Stevo - 
reverend john - Well the world is sin. In our modern Christian culture we make much about personal sin, and sinfulness but we often do not recognize cultural sin. Jesus spoke so often about cultural sin, and came to not only break the bindings of sin on a personal level, but also allow us to stand against societal sin. Violence, oppression, poverty these are all things that a Christian opposes, just as we would oppose the personal sins of lust, greed and pride.

So when Jesus ties his death not to Yom kippur but to the passover he is calling us to break free from the kingdoms of the world. Egypts are constant, and present.

rev

This sounds like a revolution Jesus. Which is what Judas, the Jews and barabbas wanted. Excuse me if I spell names wrong.

Anyhow. Jesus did not call christians to be politicians but he called for all to witness the Gospel and salvation to bring everyone into church. Culture will always be around. This is why Paul explains that the elect are ambassadors
(2Corinth. 5:20)meaning we are not of this world. Jesus also said not to worry about the cares of this world (Luke 21:34). The root of the problem is man does not have God's spirit. When you provide the truth of the spirit born into man. Everything else will fall into place.

As a christian to state that we have to worry about changing the worlds culture is false. The days of Noah of all the wickedness will rise again. Why? because Jesus said it will (Matt. 24:37)

sorry if I am unclear. Jesus was a revolutionary, that much is true. You don't get executed for treason, and also condemned to death but the religious leaders for playing by the rules and saying, "just be nice and do what you are told".

However, Jesus was not a zealott. Jesus did not say "overthrow the kingdoms of the world" he said, "you are now to leave their rulership, and accept God's" In other words, you live a different politic. A great example is the Amish, now I disagree with their exclusionary existence, however, they basically say, "we are not going to fight in your wars, we are not going to be a part of your economic system, and we are not going to live according to the values of the nation of the United states.

This is the language of the entire gospels. You cannot just take it out, or make it "spiritual" When Jesus said very clearly, "when you care for the poor, the hungry, the prisoners, the sick you are doing so for me" he meant that. We are called to live a different politic.

rev
6/4/13 12:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
150 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29672
770mdm - 
gord96 - The more one looks into Jesus and his culture and what he did, the more you realize that most Christianity today really isn't about Jesus at all. <br /><br />It's like Jesus was pointing at something, trying to show us. But instead of going after what he was pointing at, people just worship his finger that is doing the pointing.

This is a big reason Jesus isn't God and shouldn't be proclaimed as such.  Moses isn't mentioned even once in the Passover Haggadah for this very reason.  To show Moses isn't God - there is a difference between the message and the messanger.  People naturally want the messanger to be God.  I've seen it happen before and as engratiating as it is it is wrong.  Loving Jesus is cool but proclaiming him God is all beside the point that God is trying to convey.


well Moses didn't say, tomorrow they are going to kill me so spread my blood over the door posts either.

rev
6/4/13 12:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
150 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29673
and one more thing Stevo, I am sorry if I wasn't clear. We aren't going to change societal sin, although we can influence it. My point is that we are to recognize it, and then as a community of followers of Jesus, no longer participate in it.

rev
6/4/13 12:24 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 110
reverend john - and one more thing Stevo, I am sorry if I wasn't clear. We aren't going to change societal sin, although we can influence it. My point is that we are to recognize it, and then as a community of followers of Jesus, no longer participate in it.

rev

I agree with you on that.

6/4/13 12:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 111
MoustacheRider69 -  This thread is VERY interesting. Phone Post

Aren't they all? :)
6/4/13 12:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MoustacheRider69
340 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/11/08
Posts: 5826
reverend john - and one more thing Stevo, I am sorry if I wasn't clear. We aren't going to change societal sin, although we can influence it. My point is that we are to recognize it, and then as a community of followers of Jesus, no longer participate in it.

rev
Agreed. Phone Post
6/4/13 12:38 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gord96
69 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/26/03
Posts: 14420
770mdm - 
gord96 - The more one looks into Jesus and his culture and what he did, the more you realize that most Christianity today really isn't about Jesus at all. <br /><br />It's like Jesus was pointing at something, trying to show us. But instead of going after what he was pointing at, people just worship his finger that is doing the pointing.

This is a big reason Jesus isn't God and shouldn't be proclaimed as such.  Moses isn't mentioned even once in the Passover Haggadah for this very reason.  To show Moses isn't God - there is a difference between the message and the messanger.  People naturally want the messanger to be God.  I've seen it happen before and as engratiating as it is it is wrong.  Loving Jesus is cool but proclaiming him God is all beside the point that God is trying to convey.


I wasn't even really touching on Christ's divinity but I can see your point. My point is you don't see any Christ in today's churches. It makes one wonder if the idea of worship is all wrong.

It reminds me of an old Celtic myth of Enigen the Giant, the first of all beings, who saw three rays of light descending from heaven. These rays contained all the knowledge and wisdom of God. Enigen got three big staves and as fast as he could carved all the knowledge and wisdom in those three rays of light onto them. When he showed the people the three staves, they bowed down and worshiped them instead of taking the knowledge and wisdom from them. Enigen was so devastated that he burst asunder and died. Do people do the same with Jesus? Does he want people to worship him or learn from his life and teachings to better understand God?
6/4/13 1:10 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
150 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29679
brilliant

rev
6/4/13 1:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 113
gord96 - 
770mdm - 
gord96 - The more one looks into Jesus and his culture and what he did, the more you realize that most Christianity today really isn't about Jesus at all. <br /><br />It's like Jesus was pointing at something, trying to show us. But instead of going after what he was pointing at, people just worship his finger that is doing the pointing.

This is a big reason Jesus isn't God and shouldn't be proclaimed as such.  Moses isn't mentioned even once in the Passover Haggadah for this very reason.  To show Moses isn't God - there is a difference between the message and the messanger.  People naturally want the messanger to be God.  I've seen it happen before and as engratiating as it is it is wrong.  Loving Jesus is cool but proclaiming him God is all beside the point that God is trying to convey.


I wasn't even really touching on Christ's divinity but I can see your point. My point is you don't see any Christ in today's churches. It makes one wonder if the idea of worship is all wrong.

It reminds me of an old Celtic myth of Enigen the Giant, the first of all beings, who saw three rays of light descending from heaven. These rays contained all the knowledge and wisdom of God. Enigen got three big staves and as fast as he could carved all the knowledge and wisdom in those three rays of light onto them. When he showed the people the three staves, they bowed down and worshiped them instead of taking the knowledge and wisdom from them. Enigen was so devastated that he burst asunder and died. Do people do the same with Jesus? Does he want people to worship him or learn from his life and teachings to better understand God?

Both. Jesus is God in the flesh and God (1Tim 3:16) is a Jealous God.
Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
6/4/13 3:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1583
I don't see Jesus as being Jealous Phone Post 3.0
6/4/13 3:37 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
150 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 29687
In Stevo's Christianity the oneness of God is absolute in a much more literal sense. Therefore anytime we see God as jealous you can say Jesus is jealous as well as they are one in the same.

rev
6/4/13 3:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gord96
69 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/26/03
Posts: 14421
770mdm - I don't see Jesus as being Jealous Phone Post 3.0

Interestingly enough, you aren't the first to see the contradictions of Christ's loving Father compared to the OT God.

Marcion, who was the first guy to come up with the idea of the Bible or Canon, left out the OT in his version, as he thought that the God in the OT was a false evil god and not the true God, Jesus spoke about.

The Valentinian and Sethian gnostic Christians believed much of the texts in the OT referred to the false creator god known as the demiurge and that Jesus actually came from the true Father (God above god) to rescue us from the prison that the demiurge holds us in.

Anyways we going off topic here. Sorry rev. Although the gnostic idea of Jesus pulling of the greatest jail break ever kinda speaks to your idea of focusing on Christ the liberator. ;)

6/4/13 5:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Saint Stevo
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/18/13
Posts: 115
reverend john - In Stevo's Christianity the oneness of God is absolute in a much more literal sense. Therefore anytime we see God as jealous you can say Jesus is jealous as well as they are one in the same.

rev

Correct me if I'm wrong on your beliefs. You believe in the Trinity right? If so does this mean that Jesus is jealous since the trinity states they are 1 also?

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.