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HolyGround >> About the cross and atonement ?


6/4/13 5:27 PM
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Saint Stevo
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gord96 - 
770mdm - I don't see Jesus as being Jealous Phone Post 3.0

Interestingly enough, you aren't the first to see the contradictions of Christ's loving Father compared to the OT God.

Marcion, who was the first guy to come up with the idea of the Bible or Canon, left out the OT in his version, as he thought that the God in the OT was a false evil god and not the true God, Jesus spoke about.

The Valentinian and Sethian gnostic Christians believed much of the texts in the OT referred to the false creator god known as the demiurge and that Jesus actually came from the true Father (God above god) to rescue us from the prison that the demiurge holds us in.

Anyways we going off topic here. Sorry rev. Although the gnostic idea of Jesus pulling of the greatest jail break ever kinda speaks to your idea of focusing on Christ the liberator. ;)


By the topics and discussions I've seen you bring up. Are you a gnostic? Correct me if I'm wrong.
6/4/13 5:37 PM
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reverend john
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Saint Stevo - 
reverend john - In Stevo's Christianity the oneness of God is absolute in a much more literal sense. Therefore anytime we see God as jealous you can say Jesus is jealous as well as they are one in the same.

rev

Correct me if I'm wrong on your beliefs. You believe in the Trinity right? If so does this mean that Jesus is jealous since the trinity states they are 1 also?

Yes, I do believe that Jesus is jealous but in a way that transcends our understanding of jealousy. As 1 cor 13 says love is not jealous. And since God is the fullness of agape, God's love must be in someway different than our understanding of jealousy

rev
6/4/13 5:40 PM
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gord96
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Saint Stevo - 
gord96 - 
770mdm - I don't see Jesus as being Jealous Phone Post 3.0

Interestingly enough, you aren't the first to see the contradictions of Christ's loving Father compared to the OT God.

Marcion, who was the first guy to come up with the idea of the Bible or Canon, left out the OT in his version, as he thought that the God in the OT was a false evil god and not the true God, Jesus spoke about.

The Valentinian and Sethian gnostic Christians believed much of the texts in the OT referred to the false creator god known as the demiurge and that Jesus actually came from the true Father (God above god) to rescue us from the prison that the demiurge holds us in.

Anyways we going off topic here. Sorry rev. Although the gnostic idea of Jesus pulling of the greatest jail break ever kinda speaks to your idea of focusing on Christ the liberator. ;)


By the topics and discussions I've seen you bring up. Are you a gnostic? Correct me if I'm wrong.

No. I was into gnosticism a while back though. Interesting stuff. Wouldn't really call myself a gnostic though.
6/4/13 8:58 PM
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770mdm
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reverend john - 
Saint Stevo - 
reverend john - In Stevo's Christianity the oneness of God is absolute in a much more literal sense. Therefore anytime we see God as jealous you can say Jesus is jealous as well as they are one in the same.

rev

Correct me if I'm wrong on your beliefs. You believe in the Trinity right? If so does this mean that Jesus is jealous since the trinity states they are 1 also?

Yes, I do believe that Jesus is jealous but in a way that transcends our understanding of jealousy. As 1 cor 13 says love is not jealous. And since God is the fullness of agape, God's love must be in someway different than our understanding of jealousy

rev

This is just perposterous.  Then why does God label himself Jealous if he is not in fact Jealous.  Something that is jealous but higher than jealous?  Wouldn't that be hyper-jealous or massively jealous?  Or is your understanding that the root of his jealousy isn't jealousy at all but something else?  If so then why would he define himself to us when in fact he meant something else altogether.  Boulderdash!

Getting back to the point of this thread:

"If Jesus was so interested in the idea of liberation, and walking into our inheritance as sons and daughters of the Father... then why don't we focus as much on that as we do the forgiveness part?"

Would it be fare for me to rephrase this by saying why in certain holidays do we focus on forgiveness when we should be focusing on liberation? 

Would you think that a person today could relate to liberation without knowledge of what he/she's being liberated from?  Forgiveness is liberation!  If you piss me off & I hold a grudge forever doesn't that do more damage to me than you?  Forgiving you liberates me from having to carry around all the crap that would eat me up.  Maybe I'm off track here.  Help me out.

6/4/13 10:39 PM
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reverend john
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Well let me explain the transcending thing. Jealousy in a broken sense is selfish. I am jealous because I want what someone else has. But with God, God is perfect, not insecure, not selfish. So when God is jealous, it is for our good, not God's. God knows our devotion and love for Him, is the purest, most healthy and most joyous existence. His jealousy is based in his concern and love for us, not his own hurt. Does that make sense? So when we see that lived out in human form... it doesn't look the same.

As to your other points, yes forgiveness is part of liberation. And when we fail to forgive we are bound.

What I post here is not to say one or the other. Or to say we celebrate, or focus on one or the other. But to point out that Jesus intended for his death and resurrection to lead us into a new life, as much as it was an atoning for our sin. It was both. My concern is that we focus only, or mostly on the one but not the other.

rev
6/4/13 11:04 PM
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Saint Stevo
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I'd have to say. Jealous is jealous. Whether good or wrong. Just like if my son called another person dad it would raise my jealousy. Would that make me wrong? No, because he's my son. The same is said for Jesus. If we're his sons then he has full right to be jealous. There's no difference.
6/4/13 11:06 PM
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Saint Stevo
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Edited: 06/04/13 11:07 PM
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: )
6/4/13 11:13 PM
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reverend john
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so how do you reconcile God is love, love is not Jealous, God is jealous?

rev
6/5/13 9:37 AM
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770mdm
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reverend john - Well let me explain the transcending thing. Jealousy in a broken sense is selfish. I am jealous because I want what someone else has. But with God, God is perfect, not insecure, not selfish. So when God is jealous, it is for our good, not God's. God knows our devotion and love for Him, is the purest, most healthy and most joyous existence. His jealousy is based in his concern and love for us, not his own hurt. Does that make sense? So when we see that lived out in human form... it doesn't look the same.

As to your other points, yes forgiveness is part of liberation. And when we fail to forgive we are bound.

What I post here is not to say one or the other. Or to say we celebrate, or focus on one or the other. But to point out that Jesus intended for his death and resurrection to lead us into a new life, as much as it was an atoning for our sin. It was both. My concern is that we focus only, or mostly on the one but not the other.

rev

Thanks for the response but I'm stuck on the Jealousy thing.  It just seems as though God does need something from us.  Our devotion.  His reason for creating us was for our devotion yes?  To make realized Gods presence in this world.  If that is threatened then we suffer the consequences.  Hence what happened in the Flood.  In my mind the Torah is just as much God getting to know humanity as much as humanity is getting to know God.  I don't believe in determinism.  I too had been feeling that the questionable behavior of God displays was sort of a teaching method used in order to get us to do what he wanted.  If that would be the case then obviously there is no determinism.  Anyway, is God manipulating us or getting to know us?  I'm still on the fence with that thought but that's sort of where I'm heading.   

6/5/13 9:43 AM
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Saint Stevo
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reverend john - so how do you reconcile God is love, love is not Jealous, God is jealous?

rev

I take it you're referring to the scripture 1Corinth. 13:4.

The word Jealous can be geared toward good or bad. Just like I gave the example of my child and the example as we are children to God, we both have full right to be Jealous if there's unfaithfulness happening.

Jealous definition merriam web. - intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness
b : disposed to suspect rivalry or unfaithfulness

According to the scripture of love not being jealous. Let's look at the KJV and the greek which both coin the term Envious. Saying Love is not envious.

Envy Merriam Web.- : painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage

Notice in the envy def. it shows advantage. The scripture points out envy meaning an evil intention toward another. Let's say I covet someone else wife. This would mean that I envy the husband because of his wife that I covet. This is considered an evil example.

What I'm pointing out is the word Jealous good be geared toward good or bad. Envy is straight bad and that's why I like the KJV translation of it.

Question Rev. I don't know if you have kids or not but lets say you do. Would you not get jealous if your child called another man father? If you did get jealous. Would you be wrong?
6/5/13 1:41 PM
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reverend john
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Saint Stevo - 
reverend john - so how do you reconcile God is love, love is not Jealous, God is jealous?

rev

I take it you're referring to the scripture 1Corinth. 13:4.

The word Jealous can be geared toward good or bad. Just like I gave the example of my child and the example as we are children to God, we both have full right to be Jealous if there's unfaithfulness happening.

Jealous definition merriam web. - intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness
b : disposed to suspect rivalry or unfaithfulness

According to the scripture of love not being jealous. Let's look at the KJV and the greek which both coin the term Envious. Saying Love is not envious.

Envy Merriam Web.- : painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage

Notice in the envy def. it shows advantage. The scripture points out envy meaning an evil intention toward another. Let's say I covet someone else wife. This would mean that I envy the husband because of his wife that I covet. This is considered an evil example.

What I'm pointing out is the word Jealous good be geared toward good or bad. Envy is straight bad and that's why I like the KJV translation of it.

Question Rev. I don't know if you have kids or not but lets say you do. Would you not get jealous if your child called another man father? If you did get jealous. Would you be wrong?

Since one of my daughters is married, if she calls her father in law father I would not get jealous. If she called a good man who was a mentor to her father I would not get jealous. If she called a man who was bad, who's influence would hurt her I would be jealous, and that would not be a bad thing. But I understand your point on the word envy, good thoughts

rev
6/5/13 3:08 PM
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770mdm
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Looking at the Hebrew the root word for Jealous is Kuf, Nun, Alef.  In the Torah this word has been used many times.  Most interchagebly with envy.  Not the "I envy you" but someone was "envoius" of another.  Gen 26:14, 30:1 & 37:11.  Then again in Ex 20:5 & 34:14.  It's used 9x in Num, 6x in Deut & that's it. So it seems the words are sort of interchangeable given the context.  In some cases as in Exodus 20:5 & 34:14 Rashi interprets it as zealous. 

So we have the interpretations of Jealous/Envious/Zealous all coming from the same word.  Remember, Hebrew is word Rich but Meaning Poor.  The idea that God may mean such a higher form of definition is unlikely because the verbage is for us to relate to not to him.  He's not talking to himself.  He talks in ways man can relate to not extrapolate different meanings. 

 

 

6/5/13 6:12 PM
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reverend john
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no offense but if that is true God does a pretty poor job, even in your scriptures there is a million different interpretations. What is the old saying? Two Jews three opinions! And please don't take that as an insult, I believe it is much healthier than our evangelical "knowing"

rev
6/5/13 10:07 PM
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770mdm
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Funny you say that.  2 Jews 3 opinions.  Here's one I heard the other day - Two students approached their Rabbi with a problem and the Rabbi responded to the first one saying...  "Hmmm, you are right!"  ... The other student presented his side of the problem and the Rabbi said "You are right too."  And the Rabbi's wife, who was standing their said "Well, they both can't be right!"  To which the Rabbi said "You know, you're right too"

What does God do a poor job of?  Being jealous is being a poor god?  See, I wonder - the idea that God might not be perfect doesn't take away from the fact that he is God Master of the Universe.  What it does however is free us of the pitfalls of perfectionism.  Reality is not perfect and perfection is not reality.  So much so that it's practically unrelatable.  Yet, Rightiousness isn't perfection but relatable and attainable. 

I see he is instructing humanity to follow in his ways because its good for humanity.  When humanity deviates from that path then humanity is doomed to the consequences of their actions.  Their actions!  Their actions aren't premeditated or predetermined they're of our own choosing.  If we obey God is good to us if we don't then he's informing us of the clift ahead of us. 

6/5/13 10:58 PM
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reverend john
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God does not communicate with us in a way that is straight forward and without ambiguity. I do think that is the point, as we need to "wrestle" with God. It is not in the knowing but in the seeking

rev
6/5/13 11:15 PM
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Saint Stevo
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reverend john - God does not communicate with us in a way that is straight forward and without ambiguity. I do think that is the point, as we need to "wrestle" with God. It is not in the knowing but in the seeking

rev

I agree. God wants us to seek him. To get revelation of him.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
6/5/13 11:42 PM
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RoninBT
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I think the emotion of jealousy has gotten a bad rap in our PC culture. Consequently, when God says or demonstrates that He is a jealous God we may perceive a paradox where there is none. He is jealous for us because He loves us. It is not insecurity, tyrannical or being a control freak. Love and jealousy work together but must be maintained in proper balance. God is our model of how we are to treat our wives and kids. I insist that my wife not go out in public naked. Why, because I am jealous for her. Her nakedness is mine, for me and me alone. It is not in conflict with my love for her and it is righteous. You could say she is set apart / holy for me as we are to be set apart / holy for Him.
6/6/13 10:07 AM
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770mdm
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I agree God want's us to seek him.  I be inclined to support Gods actions to us as a teaching tool - meaning he is displaying an emotion in order for us to react.  But the whole idea that scripture is clouded with ambiguity is completely unfounded.   

For example, the Gospel of Mark tells this story about Jesus invoking the metaphor of a farmer planting seeds while teaching before a large crowd:

"As he taught, he said: "Listen! A sower went out to sow.  And it happened that as he sowed, some seed fell along the footpath; and the birds came and ate it up.  Some of he seed fell on rocky ground, where it had little soil...And some of the seed fell into good soil, where it came up and bore fruit; and the yield was thirtyfold, sixtyfold, even a hundredfold."  He added, "If you have ears to hear, then hear."

Afterward, Jesus' disciples inquire concerning this use of a metaphor that many in the crowd might not understand, and receive an answer as follows:

When he was alone, the Twelve and others who were round him questioned him about the parables.  He replied, "To you the secret of the kingdom of God has been given; but to those who are outside everything comes by way of parables, so that (as Scripture says) they may look and look, but see nothing they may hear and hear, but understand nothing; otherwise they might turn to God and be forgiven."

In this passage, Jesus is reported to have informed his students that the purpose of the metaphors he employs is to obscure a teaching that is intended only for certain members of the audience - "concealing their intention in such a way that minds of the impious are either converted to piety or excluded from the mysteries of the faith," as Augustine writes That some will understand, while many others are left "outside" or "excluded," is thus something to be desired, in keeping with the more general view of God's word as the revbelation of secrets long hidden - secrets that, were it not for God's grace, would in any case be known to no one.

The constant reliance on metaphor in the Israelite prophetic orations seems to have the opposite purpose:  It's aim is to make the difficult subjects easier to understand for the broad audiences to whom prophetic oratory was, in the first instance, intended to appeal.  For example, here is one appearance of the metaphor of the farmer sowing his crop in Isaiah:

"Though you plant pleasant plants ... Though in the day of your planting you can make it grow, and in the morning of your sowing you make it flourish, yet the harvest will disappear in the day of grief and desperate pain."

Or another example in Isaiah who is here arguing that evildoing of individuals is to be compared to a fire burning out of control in the forest:

For wickedness burns like fire:  It devours the briars and thorns, and kindles the thickets of the forest, raising up billows of smoke.  Though the wrath of the Lord of Hosts is in the land darkened, and the peopel are as fuel to the fire.

Here is an example of a passage in Isaiah which the NT accounts of the parable of the sower refer, with the Gospel of Matthew explicitly saying that in speaking in parables, Jesus is fulfilling the events prophesied by Isaiah centuries erlier.  as Jesus says:

"That is why I speak to them in parables; for they look without seeing, and listen without hearing or understanding.  There is a prophesy of Isaiah that is being fulfilled in them."

But the original text of Isaiah isn't making a prediction of future events at all - he's saying something totally different.

"Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?'  Then said I, 'Here am I.  Send me.'  And he said: "Go and tell this people: Hear indeed, but understand not, and see indeed, but perceive not.  Make fat the mind of this people, make haevy their ears, and smear over their eyes, lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their mind, and return and be healed.'  Then said I, 'Lord, how long?' And he answered, 'Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant ... and the Lord removed men far away.'"

This oration describes the first moment in which Isaiah hears God's call, and steps forward to volunteer himself as a messenger to the people Israel and to the nations.  What God is depicted as telling Isaiah at this moment is in fact a kind of summary of Isaiah's entire mission, folding together a thesis about the psychology of Jerusalem's inhabitants, along with a bitter assessment of where this will lead. 

6/6/13 10:08 AM
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770mdm
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Paraphrased works of Yoram Hazony - "Philosopy of Hebrew Scripture"

6/6/13 10:49 AM
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reverend john
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well I have a different understanding than you on the Mark passage and believe that Jesus was speaking within the Jewish prophetic tradition.

However, if the bible were communicated within God's ability with the express purpose of making us understand, we would not have such divergent opinions. This seems so apparent that I can't imagine someone not noticing.

rev
6/6/13 12:12 PM
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770mdm
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However, if the bible were communicated within God's ability with the express purpose of making us understand, we would not have such divergent opinions. This seems so apparent that I can't imagine someone not noticing.

Well, here we are talking about how God is describing himself as Jealous.  You say it means something other than what it says.  I site several passages of the same word used elsewhere and come up with a literary self validating answer but mine is dismissed because you want to impose a view of God that's not there? 

What is divergent here?  What else would you say are divergent opinions? 

6/6/13 2:49 PM
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Saint Stevo
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RoninBT - I think the emotion of jealousy has gotten a bad rap in our PC culture. Consequently, when God says or demonstrates that He is a jealous God we may perceive a paradox where there is none. He is jealous for us because He loves us. It is not insecurity, tyrannical or being a control freak. Love and jealousy work together but must be maintained in proper balance. God is our model of how we are to treat our wives and kids. I insist that my wife not go out in public naked. Why, because I am jealous for her. Her nakedness is mine, for me and me alone. It is not in conflict with my love for her and it is righteous. You could say she is set apart / holy for me as we are to be set apart / holy for Him.

Great explanation. I agree.
6/6/13 3:34 PM
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gord96
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RoninBT - I think the emotion of jealousy has gotten a bad rap in our PC culture. Consequently, when God says or demonstrates that He is a jealous God we may perceive a paradox where there is none. He is jealous for us because He loves us. It is not insecurity, tyrannical or being a control freak. Love and jealousy work together but must be maintained in proper balance. God is our model of how we are to treat our wives and kids. I insist that my wife not go out in public naked. Why, because I am jealous for her. Her nakedness is mine, for me and me alone. It is not in conflict with my love for her and it is righteous. You could say she is set apart / holy for me as we are to be set apart / holy for Him.

Jealousy just causes suffering. It is a petty human emotion, but we are all prone to experience it. Some more then others, some less. It's a very negative emotion.
6/6/13 10:20 PM
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770mdm
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But it's not us that's Jealous It's God.  It's about our behavior in relation to the jealousy.  If we interperet the language the wrong way & create reasoning & definitions beyond the scope of the text we are in fact acting in total blasphemy/!  (Not yelling - just emphasizing)

6/7/13 11:56 AM
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reverend john
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770mdm - 

However, if the bible were communicated within God's ability with the express purpose of making us understand, we would not have such divergent opinions. This seems so apparent that I can't imagine someone not noticing.

Well, here we are talking about how God is describing himself as Jealous.  You say it means something other than what it says.  I site several passages of the same word used elsewhere and come up with a literary self validating answer but mine is dismissed because you want to impose a view of God that's not there? 

What is divergent here?  What else would you say are divergent opinions? 


You are putting two separate discussions into one.

Did God communicate in a completely efficient and unambiguous way

Is God's jealousy something that is different that our own

The first question is the basis for answering the second, but they are not inter related. And I did not dismiss what you said about the second question. I understand what you said, and why you believe what you do. I however disagree with you. This is not a dismisal.

rev

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