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HolyGround >> About the cross and atonement ?


6/8/13 9:52 PM
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770mdm
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Did God communicate in a completely efficient and unambiguous way

Me:  Yes I do

Is God's Jealousy something that is different than our own

Me: No - Just as one would be jealous when his girl or wife is seduced by another man God is Jealous if we worship strange gods or Idols.

I'm cool with agreeing to disagree but if you see Gods statement to mean something other than what it said how are you reading the text?

6/9/13 1:14 PM
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reverend john
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I have no problem disagreeing. The thing is my scriptures say Love is not Jealous, and that God is love. Which makes me understanding ita bit more difficult.

As to ambiguous, you may not thing this particular issue is ambiguous, but you cannot think that God has communicated in perfect clarity. For instance what does ,"each man did what was right in his own mind as there was not king in Israel" mean? I believe it was a good statement, most people believe it was a statement of judgment and the justification for a king. But God did not make things perfectly direct and clear.

This is not to say God didn't communicate, nor that it is completely ambiguous, but that there is some ambiguity.

What I am suggesting is not that God has some code to try and hide things, I am suggesting that God wants us to look, to wrestle, to contend. That it is in this process we are brought close. The information is sometimes very important sometimes less so. But it is always something that we are called to fight for. And I believe it is also usually someting with more than one "layer" of truth to it.

rev
6/10/13 9:36 AM
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770mdm
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If my scripture says God is Jealous but your's says otherwise then, for you, how are you reconciling it?  Just curious.

Judges 21:25 The oldest and most tragic phenomenon in history is that empires, which once bestrode the narrow world like a colossus, eventually decline and disappear. Freedom becomes individualism (“each doing what was right in his own eyes”, Judges 21:25), individualism becomes chaos, chaos becomes the search for order, and the search for order becomes a new tyranny imposing its will by the use of force. What, thanks to Torah, Jews never forgot is that freedom is a never-ending effort of education in which parents, teachers, homes and schools are all partners in the dialogue between the generations. Learning, talmud Torah, is the very foundation of Judaism, the guardian of our heritage and hope. That is why, when tradition conferred on Moses the greatest honour, it did not call him ‘our hero’, ‘our prophet’ or ‘our king’. It called him, simply, Moshe Rabbenu, Moses our teacher. For it is in the arena of education that the battle for the good society is lost or won.  Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks

In our understanding if we find two contradictory passages there is a third which would reconcile them.  Since you are talking about NT and OT than I'm not sure you'll find that third passage. 

6/11/13 10:58 AM
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reverend john
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So there are no differing opinions in Judaism, all people believe the same because the scriptures are perfectly clear?

sorry but I call bullshit

rev
6/11/13 12:55 PM
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770mdm
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I'm identifying a technique used in Judaism to clarify seemingly contradictory passages.  Not saying there are no differing opinions, there are plenty.  I'm saying this technique couldn't be used to reconcile this issue.  The OT records God saying he is a Jealous God.  The NT says God is not Jealous.  I'm asking how you are reconciling this issue?

6/11/13 1:35 PM
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reverend john
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I agree with your mechanism.

But sometimes there is no mechanism, so you must use your brain.

The Christian scriptures do not say God is not jealous, they say that Agape is not Jealous. And they also say that God is Agape. Which leads to a question as to what exactly is meant. To say that jealousy that comes from a perfected heart is something different than jealousy that comes from a less than perfected heart is a way to reconcile it.

But you are going further than that, you are saying that God is never ambiguous in the scriptures. And that is not true, if it were there would be no disagreements.

rev
6/11/13 2:57 PM
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770mdm
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So the NT is directly contradicting the OT.  I say the OT cannon is a cohesive whole where mechanisms such as I have aforementioned can be used but not in reconciling OT & NT issues.  They must be two seperate ideologies.  Where the OT stands on its own & validates itself & the NT superimposes itself on an already well established theology.  Which goes back to the imperfect God theory - originally a Greek idea not Judaic. 

6/11/13 3:41 PM
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gord96
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maybe Marcion had it right when he left out the OT from his canon.
6/11/13 5:11 PM
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reverend john
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Yeah, you are right, your scriptures are perfect, they lead to no different conclusions and are completely unambiguous, which is why Judaism is one perfect solid group of people believing the exact same thing with the exact same practices.

Us poor Christians with our sub par scriptures will continue to suffer in our broken and disjointed narrative

rev
6/11/13 5:35 PM
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770mdm
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Funny - You know all that isn't true at all. 

6/11/13 6:05 PM
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reverend john
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funny how you act like it is true

rev
6/11/13 9:04 PM
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770mdm
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Come'on stick to the argument.  This is about how humanity is to be depicting God.  In the OT God says himself he is a jealous God.  He's threatened to obliterate the Isrealites on more than one occasion - I've shown, contextually, that the term used is consistant enough to conclude God means what he says.  Yet, in the NT God is Agape not jealous.  I've been asking how you reconcile that issue.  No answer.  I point out that because Hebrew Scripture has a coherency to it a third passage is a mechanism sometimes used to clarify two seemingly contradictory passages and that the NT can't be included in that because it's not part of the same cannon.  I could be wrong and am hoping you can reconcile the issue but you're not doing that you're busy painting me as some kind of bad guy.  You're answer is that we must use our brains - that not all contradictory passages can be solved by a third one.  You quote Judges 21:25 and I comment that when we rely on our own capacity in situations like this we desolve into individualism which becomes chaos which becomes the search for order again.  So the using our brains thing is important but not by pulling things out of the air.  Using our brains to see how passages validate each other, clarify each other.  I don't know, that's where I think we are.

6/11/13 11:44 PM
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martial_shadow
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a colleague asked me to check in on this.

In Judaism G-d is both a loving father and jealous of other gods. It is quite contextual. The NT in general seems to have Jesus stepping into the gap. The Father remains with the same status as the OT Deity while Jesus becomes a being of love.

Not a fan of the idea but it seems to be the general consensus I've seen.

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