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UnderGround Forums >> Royce Gracie: MMA is not a style


6/10/13 8:28 AM
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Underground Blog
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MixedMartialArts.com
 

Sports Illustrated's Jeff Wagenheim recently conducted an interview with MMA Hall of Famer Royce Gracie, and discussed the differences between martial arts and mixed martial arts.

Jeff Wagenheim: What do you think of the MMA that your kids are growing up watching? The fighters of today are well versed in a variety of disciplines, from standup to the ground. The thinking is you can't survive as simply a jiu-jitsu guy anymore. Do you agree?

Royce Gracie: Fighters have to adapt. Look at Lyoto Machida, for instance, or Chuck Liddell. They come from a karate background, but they had to learn wrestling to avoid being taken down. If they did wind up on the mat, they had to know jiu-jitsu, just to know what's coming at them. I learned my boxing and kickboxing not because I was planning to knock somebody out. I just needed to know how standup fighters moved, how they would set me up with a kick or punch. So, yes, fighters have evolved, but they all have one main style that they call home, where they feel most comfortable.

JW: Nowadays, though, a lot of gyms don't teach one particular discipline, like jiu-jitsu or karate. They teach mixed martial arts. Do you think something gets lost when young people learn this way rather than focusing on a single tradition that's been passed down through the generations?

RG: You don't say, "Hey, I'm going to go get some Starbucks." No, you're going to get some coffee at Starbucks. "Hey, I'm going to make a Xerox." No, you're making a copy on a Xerox machine. So kids want to learn mixed martial arts? Mixed martial arts is what you do inside the cage, inside the ring. What they should be looking to learn is a martial art.

You learn a style. You learn wrestling. You learn Gracie jiu-jitsu. You learn boxing. You learn judo. You don't learn mixed martial arts. You learn a style or maybe more than one style, and then you mix them. But you don't teach a mix. People come up to me all the time and ask, "Do you teach UFC style?" [Laughs.] UFC is a brand. It's not a martial art.

Read entire interview...

What do you think UG? Is Mixed Martial Arts now a valid martial art to teach, or is it something you do in a cage, from a base of BJJ, Muay Thai, wrestling, etc?


6/10/13 8:29 AM
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stevekt
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Does he even trane UFC bro?
6/10/13 8:32 AM
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torquemada
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Not entirely disagreeing, but people always say "I'm getting Starbucks." Phone Post
6/10/13 8:38 AM
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MMAHistoryProject
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Edited: 06/10/13 8:39 AM
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If the style you see every day in the cage was was called "Submission Kickboxing" or some such, there'd be no issue here.

6/10/13 12:14 PM
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Ninja Tea Party
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I understand what he's saying about "you learn a style" and then mix it together, but I also think it's fair to say that it is becoming a style in itself. The origins of the moves all come from different places, but their application and specific use within the unified MMA rules is what I think makes it a style in itself. BJJ is a style despite the fact that it borrows some of its submissions from Judo.

It just seems a bit deconstructionalist to break it down like that. If you play football you run, you jump, you throw etc, but you play and train in football. You don't say "you train running, you train jumping, you train throwing, and then you mix it together, but there is no football".
6/10/13 12:33 PM
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Another Foob
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Rory MacDonald disagrees.
6/10/13 12:34 PM
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Another Foob
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Ninja Tea Party - I understand what he's saying about "you learn a style" and then mix it together, but I also think it's fair to say that it is becoming a style in itself. The origins of the moves all come from different places, but their application and specific use within the unified MMA rules is what I think makes it a style in itself. BJJ is a style despite the fact that it borrows some of its submissions from Judo.

It just seems a bit deconstructionalist to break it down like that. If you play football you run, you jump, you throw etc, but you play and train in football. You don't say "you train running, you train jumping, you train throwing, and then you mix it together, but there is no football".

I really like that football analogy.
6/10/13 1:12 PM
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DaddyRich
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I wonder which UGer's keep asking him that?
6/10/13 2:39 PM
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chaplinshouse
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potato patotto.  may as well give royce shit for wearing that "ifight' shirt at the new dubai gym.  fighting implies strikes

6/10/13 3:03 PM
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yusul
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he's right, but has anyone not asked if something was xeroxed?
6/10/13 3:03 PM
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Kings21
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torquemada -  Not entirely disagreeing, but people always say "I'm getting Starbucks." Phone Post

You have my curiosity. Do people say "I'm getting Starbucks" and then go and get their coffee at another place, say Duncan Donuts?

I understand casual dumbasses mixing the UFC brand and the sports name MMA but if what you say is true and there are actually people saying they're going to get a cup of starbucks at duncan donuts then I just dont know what this world is coming to.


If its a troll post, consider me trolled.
6/10/13 3:20 PM
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Wasa-B
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Ah semantics.

Starting an MMA gym is a perfectly acceptable statement btw.
6/10/13 3:42 PM
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armbarheelhook
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"My style is the art of fighting, without fighting." Bruce Lee~ Enter the Dragon Phone Post
6/10/13 6:28 PM
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MMAHistoryProject
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The problem is that Football is a bad analogy.  MMA is a sport that promises the possibility of seeing a mixed match between two well prepared people with different, possibly non-overlapping skills.  You are correct that you "do" Football, but you do  sail an "America's Cup Boat", you sail whatever design you feel will win.  MMA is a heterogenious sport; you can't put a label on freestyle fighting, even if the number of wining styles and combos is a short list.  If evey fighter was identically trained, this would be "Brazilian Shootfighting"... but it's not, it's Mixed Martial Arts; mixed fighters and mixed matches.

6/10/13 6:49 PM
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The Cats Masher
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I dig what Royce is saying but I feel there are a lot of techniques in TMAs that don't transfer all that well to the sport of MMA. So it may in fact be more efficient to cut out all the extra that comes with TMAs and train MMA.

My frien Rory Mac is a good example of this. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 7:08 PM
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Truemanc3
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You have to have a base martial art... i.e an area you do well in,stand up, clinch or ground...... then you need to become well rounded and learn to survive in a cage or ring.
6/10/13 7:15 PM
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buddie
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Although people might be quick to say "Royce is out of touch." I would argue he's dead on. Royce spends a lot of time travelling to different places teaching, talking to the new generation and working with them. He knows what's going on. I think the point is that its good to broaden your horizons, but when you start to teach a mash up of everything, some of the finer points get lost.

6/10/13 7:17 PM
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mikinoki
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MMA is THE STYLE!!
6/10/13 7:27 PM
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buddie
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I think on average, if you took a young man interested in combat sports and he wrestled for a few years. Took some BJJ classes and had a few fights in the golden gloves out of a good boxing gym, he'd be miles ahead of where he would be if he spent all that time in an "MMA gym."

That's sort of the Jigoro Kano philosophy. Less is more sometimes. Strong competition under restraint by rules can make you better and more complete. Of course, as has been said, you have to have experience in places you wouldn't be. (e.g. being a boxer makes you tough as hell, but it doesn't help you defend a takedown or how to recover from your back or how to defend and armbar.)
6/10/13 7:37 PM
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cm81
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BadMon -

GRACIE WASN'T ABOUT MMA

 

THEY ARE ANTI-MMA.  I've already said this many times.

 

btw Karate teaches take-downs and TDD.

 

it's best to have a striking or wrestling as a base than BJJ.  All UFC champs, striking base or wrstling base.  NONE ARE BJJ BASE

Yeah... I'm sure GSP learned his takedowns and TDD from karate. Training with those russian wrestlers in Canada had nothing to do with it.

Just like how all the guard passing and submission defense, which are his bread and butter and helps him win fights, clearly shows that BJJ as a base is useless. He really has no use for that BJJ black belt and John Danaher hanging around. He learned this from karate.

Ninja please. You're always so butthurt and insecure about your TMA background, go train some BJJ and wrestling and spare us your "karate teaches tdd" shite. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 7:38 PM
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inf0
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Old thoughtforms die HARD... when's the last time a Gracie did anything in MMA worth noting?

 

MMA is the style going forward.....

 

6/10/13 7:39 PM
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inf0
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cm81 - 
BadMon -

GRACIE WASN'T ABOUT MMA

 

THEY ARE ANTI-MMA.  I've already said this many times.

 

btw Karate teaches take-downs and TDD.

 

it's best to have a striking or wrestling as a base than BJJ.  All UFC champs, striking base or wrstling base.  NONE ARE BJJ BASE

Yeah... I'm sure GSP learned his takedowns and TDD from karate. Training with those russian wrestlers in Canada had nothing to do with it.

Just like how all the guard passing and submission defense, which are his bread and butter and helps him win fights, clearly shows that BJJ as a base is useless. He really has no use for that BJJ black belt and John Danaher hanging around. He learned this from karate.

Ninja please. You're always so butthurt and insecure about your TMA background, go train some BJJ and wrestling and spare us your "karate teaches tdd" shite. Phone Post 3.0

You're confused. Those takedowns and take down defences are all a part of the style called MMA now. Just as BJJ contains many of the same moves from Judo, like RNCs, sweeps, etc.

 

 

6/10/13 7:43 PM
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OnlyTheStrongSurvive
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I'm kind of confused about what people are disagreeing with. all he is saying is MMA isn't a martial art, but a blending of different martial arts. Phone Post
6/10/13 8:02 PM
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Carl Sonnen
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Wait, you mean its not possible to 'trane ufc'?
6/11/13 7:29 AM
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cm81
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BadMon -
cm81 - 
BadMon -

GRACIE WASN'T ABOUT MMA

 

THEY ARE ANTI-MMA.  I've already said this many times.

 

btw Karate teaches take-downs and TDD.

 

it's best to have a striking or wrestling as a base than BJJ.  All UFC champs, striking base or wrstling base.  NONE ARE BJJ BASE

Yeah... I'm sure GSP learned his takedowns and TDD from karate. Training with those russian wrestlers in Canada had nothing to do with it.

Just like how all the guard passing and submission defense, which are his bread and butter and helps him win fights, clearly shows that BJJ as a base is useless. He really has no use for that BJJ black belt and John Danaher hanging around. He learned this from karate.

Ninja please. You're always so butthurt and insecure about your TMA background, go train some BJJ and wrestling and spare us your "karate teaches tdd" shite. Phone Post 3.0

 

Go watch his Joe Rogan Podcast and edcuate yourself.

 

 

He goes into DETAIL about Karate.  You can come back and write the quotes he said.  He attributed his incredible TDD and TD executions to his karate footwork.

 

The 2 best karate fighters in MMA, Machida and GSP both have the best TDD in the game.

Doesn't matter what he says. Its what he does.

GSP spends most of his training time doing BJJ (his "favorite" sport), working on wrestling and Muay thai. When he has time he trains boxing with Freddie Roach.

Since when in the videos of him training at Tristar do you see him doing karate, other than goofing around with JCVD?

He doesn't seek out to train under some karate masters. He goes to Freddie Roach, Braulio Estima, Roger Gracie.

Of course Machida has the best tdd. And Ichihara had the worst tdd. John Makdessi's karate also didn't help him geting taken down and choked by Dennis Hallman.

There is nothing wrong with Karate. We've all done it sometime. But its delusional to say you can learn tdd from it, or to pretend that BJJ is a huge component in modern MMA. Phone Post 3.0

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