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UnderGround Forums >> Jon Fitch responds to Dana White on fighter pay


6/11/13 7:28 AM
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canuck34
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D241 -

James Toney, in 1 UFC fight=

UFC 118 Fighter Salaries: James Toney Earns $500,000 in Debut Loss

 

 

"You don't understand supply and demand"

 

 

James Toney says

 

 

 

 

You just proved my point. Toney was a huge star and sold a ton of PPV.

Lol. Phone Post
6/11/13 7:37 AM
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hedfunk
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BTT-RyannVonDoom -
hedfunk - The fact is if he was more exciting as a fighter and a person he would of been paid more. Let's not beat around the bush. Even on here a forum for mma diehards, 90% of people complained about his style. He was not exciting. Not even a bit. He was the poster boy for what alot of people dislike in the sport. Lay and praying. That's not a good thing.

In most businesses you get paid more if you make more money for the business. How much did Fitch really bring in?

He maybe should of got another shot at GSP based on his record but where is the upside with that for the UFC? Did fitch change his game at all after losing to GSP? No. He himself knew that his style put him on the endangered species list. Be didn't do anything to change that. Phone Post
You just stated that mma should be sports entertainment. Phone Post 3.0
Kind of. The vast majority odd people watch sports because they're entertaining. If every fight was as exciting as a fitch fight do you think the UFC would even exist anymore?

People want to beer excited, to be entertained. Fitch obviously has skills but they aren't fun to watch. $60 is alot these days, people want their money's worth. Fitch knew that if he lost he would probably be out of a job. He had the opportunity to change his game and be more aggressive and chose not too. I don't blame him, it was successful, but he knew what would happen if he lost.

Hope he does well in WSOF. Phone Post
6/11/13 8:01 AM
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ShamusO'nyou
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I think people confuse paying fair and paying what you can get away with.

Fitch had to take it because he couldn't get paid better anywhere else, but does that mean he got paid fairly? How many top fighters that could challenge GSP existed?

There is no show without the fighters. There will never be a shortage of people willing to fight but they aren't all at the same level. Boring or not Fitch was one of the best and most real sports fans want to see that. The may root against him a la Mayweather, but you still want to see the best.

UFC can pay whatever they want, but whether you think it is right or fair depends on your morals. Alot of people believe in might equals right and doing what you can get away with.
6/11/13 8:18 AM
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DEZBOT
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Should have become a promoter Fitch Phone Post
6/11/13 8:31 AM
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leifdawg
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Macedawgg - 
Nuevo Haole - 

Sponsorship money has little to do with the UFC,

so they guys in LFC make the same amount in sponsor $?

Terrible argument.

Just like the guys in the Arena Football League don't make the same endorsment revenue that the guys in the NFL make.  Do the Cowboys consider Romo's endorsements part of his compensation?  No--not ever. 

The UFC, by their own procolamation, is the "NFL" of MMA--that is why the sponsorship levels are higher.  Talent.


Romo doesn't get to wear his own sponsors during games.

Notice how the cornermen are always rushing to get the hats, shirts, and drinks to their fighters as soon as the fight is over? That's because they get money for having that stuff shown during the broadcast. What the UFC should do is sign an exclusive deal with Nike or Tapout or whoever to do all the equipment and then increase fighter pay with the revenue slotted to their position on the card.
6/11/13 8:44 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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lookoutawhale -

I think Jon does put up a good argument. The promoters take the lions share of the money in the UFC compared to boxing where its the talent that takes most of the money on the big name fighter cards.

Jon left out his sponsorship money but he also left out UFC's sponsorship money they rake in so its fair.

Its why the UFC claims the fighter can talk about their pay when in reality their contract says they arent allowed to tell people anything about their contract. By keeping people in the dark you can then talk generically but how great your fighters are getting paid without really giving a number and then pretending its the fighters that dont want their salary to be exposed while maintaining a gag order behind the scenes. If word got around at how low the total payouts per ppv to the talent was it could become an issue.

Good for Jon to tell his side of the story.

Yes and how has that worked for boxing?

Would you like Anderson/gsp type guys to get the lions share and ALL the other fighters on the cards getting peanuts?

Not a good business model to compare too. Also the promotions get less revenue in boxing because they are not footing all the expenses in the same way that the ufc does. Phone Post
6/11/13 8:46 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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ShamusO'nyou - I think people confuse paying fair and paying what you can get away with.

Fitch had to take it because he couldn't get paid better anywhere else, but does that mean he got paid fairly? How many top fighters that could challenge GSP existed?

There is no show without the fighters. There will never be a shortage of people willing to fight but they aren't all at the same level. Boring or not Fitch was one of the best and most real sports fans want to see that. The may root against him a la Mayweather, but you still want to see the best.

UFC can pay whatever they want, but whether you think it is right or fair depends on your morals. Alot of people believe in might equals right and doing what you can get away with.
Yes, he got paid what the market brought him.

If the best paying promotion in MMA negotiated Jon Fitch to xxxx per fight, that's what the free market got him. He has a manager, and there are other promotions. Phone Post
6/11/13 8:56 AM
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ShamusO'nyou
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They could comfortably pay him more and still make massive profits. They dont because they dont have to. Thats the UFC paying what they can get away with, not what they think is fair.
6/11/13 9:12 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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ShamusO'nyou - They could comfortably pay him more and still make massive profits. They dont because they dont have to. Thats the UFC paying what they can get away with, not what they think is fair.
That's how the free market works fren. Phone Post
6/11/13 9:48 AM
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LILBROCK
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Macedawgg - 
bozy -  That's why they pay there managers isn't it. To get them the best deals. Phone Post

Yes, exactly.

http://www.fightersonlymag.com/content/news/11659-dos-santos-questions-need-for-managers-at-ufc-level

“In fact, the UFC is such an organized company that they themselves are [practically] our own managers.  Usually they already do anything they want in the US.  The manager doesn't have much of a say in UFC's decisions.... Of course they help here and there but it's very little."  --Junior Dos Santos

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Shogun-Rua-Talks-Changes-in-Management-Training-Camp-40139

"The UFC has made it clear that we don’t need a manager; all negotiations are conducted by the athletes themselves. A manager today is not like in the Pride days. At that time, they had much more weight."  Shogun Rua

Monte Cox, on ESPN’s Outside the Lines television program, stated “you don’t negotiate with the UFC.”  According to Cox, “either you can be in the UFC family or you cannot.”  Not taking what is offered puts you “outside the family."

http://www.mmajunkie.com/news/2013/01/rampage-says-ufc-bridge-burned-looking-forward-to-next-career-chapter

"UFC is a huge platform, and that's part of the problem.  When you have that big of a platform and you've got the market monopolized like that, you can say take it or leave it.": Quinton Jackson

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/3/Finding-Fedor-10538

"The contract that we were presented with by the UFC was simply impossible, couldn’t be signed -- I couldn't leave. If I won, I had to fight eight times in two years. If I lost one fight, then the UFC had the right to rip up the contract. At the conclusion of the contract, if I am undefeated, then it automatically extends for an as yet unspecified period of time, though for the same compensation. Basically I can’t leave undefeated. I can’t give interviews, appear in films or advertising. I don’t have the right to do anything without the UFC’s agreement. I could do nothing without the OK from the UFC. I didn’t have the right to compete in combat sambo competition. It’s my national sport. It’s the Russian sport, which in his time our president competed in, and I no longer have the right to do so. There were many such clauses; the contract was 18 pages in length. It was written in such a way that I had absolutely no rights while the UFC could at any moment, if something didn’t suit them, tear up the agreement. We worked with lawyers who told us that it was patently impossible to sign such a document."  --Fedor Emelianenko

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/1/10-Questions-for-Lorenzo-Fertitta-18516

"We offered the exact same contract that three hundred other guys have signed, including Brock Lesnar, Chuck Liddell, Anderson Silva, GSP, all the top stars. Why is that contract not good enough for Fedor?"  Lorenzo Fertitta

 

---Maybe not.


Funny how this has been ignored by the shills. Per Shogun, what kind of company tells you that a manager is not necessary when you're attempting to negotiate a multi year contract that will determine your livelihood?

"Oh no of course you don't need a manager or attorney even though it's a huge conflict of interest to take our advice. Don't worry, we will offer you a low ball contract that is in our best interest."

--Dana
6/11/13 10:30 AM
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leifdawg
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Macedawgg - 

The NFL didn't make that revenue--the franchises did. 

The franchises are NOT tax exempt.  Afterall, the NFL is merely a partnership of the individual franchise owners.

Further, of that revenue, players receive 49%--and that is of gross revenues--not net.  How do we know?  The CBA agreement.

We also know that from the years 2005-2011, the UFC paid out in total approximately $250 million to athletes.  Source?  Lorenzo Fertitta. 

So yes, on % basis, the UFC is indeed FAR more profitable than the NFL (a non-profit) and ALL of the individual franchises. 


The UFC also has a lot more expenses than the NFL. TV companies foot the production and marketing bills that the UFC pays out of pocket each show.

Also most NFL teams own their own Stadium so they keep a larger % of gate sales as well.
6/11/13 11:15 AM
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B_Goetz
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If $176k is the average of what he made over the course of 7.5 years, presumably he was making much less in the beginning and more toward the middle-to-end of his UFC career. It would be interesting to know specifically how much he was making AFTER he became an established fighter.
6/11/13 11:29 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Macedogg still trying to make terrible comparisons to the NFL? A 9.5 billion dollar revenue vs a 450-500million a year revenue? Phone Post
6/11/13 11:32 AM
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canuck34
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B_Goetz - If $176k is the average of what he made over the course of 7.5 years, presumably he was making much less in the beginning and more toward the middle-to-end of his UFC career. It would be interesting to know specifically how much he was making AFTER he became an established fighter.
Yep. And if he had beaten GSP he would be making HuGE bank. Sorry but winning boring fights then losing a few times should not equal making millions of dollars. Phone Post
6/11/13 11:54 AM
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Whambo
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  Macedogg still trying to make terrible comparisons to the NFL? A 9.5 billion dollar revenue vs a 450-500million a year revenue? Phone Post

ok how about the NHL? about 2.5 billion revenue, so 5x that of the UFC.

Do you think if you take the total collection of NHL players salary it will be simply 5x greater than the UFC?

It wouldn't even be comparable, a 4th line player makes 10x what Fitch a UFC star and title contender was making.

The % split of revenue that the big 4 athletes get compared to the UFC athletes is laughable. The UFC won't confirm what it is approximately, but the ESPN article had something like 3% goes to the athletes. Of couse UFC refutes this, but wouldn't give the actual value.
6/11/13 12:02 PM
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canuck34
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Whambo -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  Macedogg still trying to make terrible comparisons to the NFL? A 9.5 billion dollar revenue vs a 450-500million a year revenue? Phone Post

ok how about the NHL? about 2.5 billion revenue, so 5x that of the UFC.

Do you think if you take the total collection of NHL players salary it will be simply 5x greater than the UFC?

It wouldn't even be comparable, a 4th line player makes 10x what Fitch a UFC star and title contender was making.

The % split of revenue that the big 4 athletes get compared to the UFC athletes is laughable. The UFC won't confirm what it is approximately, but the ESPN article had something like 3% goes to the athletes. Of couse UFC refutes this, but wouldn't give the actual value.
Wrong again. Lots if fourth line guys are making $600 to $800k a year. And they play 80 games to get that money. Plus they are lucky if they play 3-4 seasons. Phone Post
6/11/13 12:29 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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Whambo -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  Macedogg still trying to make terrible comparisons to the NFL? A 9.5 billion dollar revenue vs a 450-500million a year revenue? Phone Post

ok how about the NHL? about 2.5 billion revenue, so 5x that of the UFC.

Do you think if you take the total collection of NHL players salary it will be simply 5x greater than the UFC?

It wouldn't even be comparable, a 4th line player makes 10x what Fitch a UFC star and title contender was making.

The % split of revenue that the big 4 athletes get compared to the UFC athletes is laughable. The UFC won't confirm what it is approximately, but the ESPN article had something like 3% goes to the athletes. Of couse UFC refutes this, but wouldn't give the actual value.
Does the NHL cover all the costs of doing business that the UFC does? No. The networks cover many many expenses.

Comparing any major team sport to a combat sport is ignorance. Not comparable.

Combat sports pay is based more heavily on drawing power/star status compared to major team sports.

Fitch was not a draw, never a champion, and still made gross income average of almost 200k a year. Not counting any money outside zuffa. Phone Post
6/11/13 12:30 PM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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canuck34 -
Whambo -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  Macedogg still trying to make terrible comparisons to the NFL? A 9.5 billion dollar revenue vs a 450-500million a year revenue? Phone Post

ok how about the NHL? about 2.5 billion revenue, so 5x that of the UFC.

Do you think if you take the total collection of NHL players salary it will be simply 5x greater than the UFC?

It wouldn't even be comparable, a 4th line player makes 10x what Fitch a UFC star and title contender was making.

The % split of revenue that the big 4 athletes get compared to the UFC athletes is laughable. The UFC won't confirm what it is approximately, but the ESPN article had something like 3% goes to the athletes. Of couse UFC refutes this, but wouldn't give the actual value.
Wrong again. Lots if fourth line guys are making $600 to $800k a year. And they play 80 games to get that money. Plus they are lucky if they play 3-4 seasons. Phone Post
I don't follow hockey close, but Googled and that seems about right.

Still sill to even compare the two sports. Phone Post
6/11/13 1:18 PM
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Chromium
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This is sad because arguing about whether Fitch — who even after training expenses was still hauling in over $100,000 a year — was underpaid or not is distracting from the ore serious issue of undercard fighters who fight for the UFC and can't even make a full-time living off of it. If you fight for the UFC and aren't making at least $30,000 a year or so after training expenses, it reflects badly on the company. If you fight for the UFC you should at least be able to rent a decent apartment on your own, pay the bills, own a (used) car, and train full time as a fighter without needing a job on the side to make ends meet.

I don't think Fitch was overpaid, and I don't think it was right he was cut (I also seriously doubt his release was for financial reasons, it doesn't add up both literally and metaphorically), but I do think he's distracting from a greater issue right now.

6/11/13 1:24 PM
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Macedawgg
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  Macedogg still trying to make terrible comparisons to the NFL? A 9.5 billion dollar revenue vs a 450-500million a year revenue? Phone Post

Total amount of revenue between the two is unimportant and irrelevant--it is the split that is important.  In the NFL, players receive 49% of gross football related revenue.  Not net--gross.  In the UFC, that figure is around 10%. 

But, for kicks and giggles--let's review in more detail. 

Of the NFL's revenue, 49% goes to players, leaving 51%. 

That 51% is then divided by 32 (the number of teams). 

Assuming your $9.5 billion number is accurate, the math is as follows:

$9,500,000,000 X .51 = $4,850,000,000

$4,850,000,000\32 = $151,406,250 PER FRANCHISE

You were saying?

6/11/13 1:26 PM
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Whambo
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canuck34 - 
Whambo -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  Macedogg still trying to make terrible comparisons to the NFL? A 9.5 billion dollar revenue vs a 450-500million a year revenue? Phone Post

ok how about the NHL? about 2.5 billion revenue, so 5x that of the UFC.

Do you think if you take the total collection of NHL players salary it will be simply 5x greater than the UFC?

It wouldn't even be comparable, a 4th line player makes 10x what Fitch a UFC star and title contender was making.

The % split of revenue that the big 4 athletes get compared to the UFC athletes is laughable. The UFC won't confirm what it is approximately, but the ESPN article had something like 3% goes to the athletes. Of couse UFC refutes this, but wouldn't give the actual value.
Wrong again. Lots if fourth line guys are making $600 to $800k a year. And they play 80 games to get that money. Plus they are lucky if they play 3-4 seasons. Phone Post

I only checked one team and there was a 4th liner making 7 figures, but yes most make 600k-800k.

6/11/13 1:27 PM
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D241
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Edited: 06/11/13 1:30 PM
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canuck34 - 
D241 -

James Toney, in 1 UFC fight=

UFC 118 Fighter Salaries: James Toney Earns $500,000 in Debut Loss

 

 

"You don't understand supply and demand"

 

 

James Toney says

 

 

 

 

You just proved my point. Toney was a huge star and sold a ton of PPV.

Lol. Phone Post

 

#1, James Toney didn't headline that event, a TITLE fight between Penn/Edgar did.

 

#2, lets pretend that James Toney did headline that event. Your point is that a main event fighter  is considered one of the stars of the ppv, therefor should be compensated as the Main eventing fighter. That same concept should be consistent for Jon Fitch and all main eventing fighters.

#3.UFC 117 Jon Fitch Co Main evented. He was paid 54k to show, 54k to win, a grand total of 108k

     UFC 118, Toney Co Main evented. He was paid a flat 500k fee.

 

Comparing apples to oranges, James Toney got paid more of a base salary for one UFC fight that he didn't main event, was still consdierably more than what Jon Fitch made headlining a Main event.

Comparing apples to apples, James Toney got paid a flat Five Hundred Thousand Dollars for co-maining a UFC. Jon Fitch got paid a flat 54k, 108k total for showing and winning, for co-maining a UFC.

 

 

Thanks for proving my point-even More.

6/11/13 1:27 PM
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Whambo
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Edited: 06/11/13 1:28 PM
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^which is still higher than 99% of the UFC roster, and they get a pension.

But carry on...
6/11/13 1:28 PM
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Macedawgg
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Edited: 06/11/13 1:43 PM
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leifdawg - 
Macedawgg - 

The NFL didn't make that revenue--the franchises did. 

The franchises are NOT tax exempt.  Afterall, the NFL is merely a partnership of the individual franchise owners.

Further, of that revenue, players receive 49%--and that is of gross revenues--not net.  How do we know?  The CBA agreement.

We also know that from the years 2005-2011, the UFC paid out in total approximately $250 million to athletes.  Source?  Lorenzo Fertitta. 

So yes, on % basis, the UFC is indeed FAR more profitable than the NFL (a non-profit) and ALL of the individual franchises. 


The UFC also has a lot more expenses than the NFL. TV companies foot the production and marketing bills that the UFC pays out of pocket each show.

Also most NFL teams own their own Stadium so they keep a larger % of gate sales as well.

No, most owners do not own their own stadiums--they are publicly financed. 

http://www.footballphds.com/2011/06/23/nfl-in-la-the-definitive-nfl-stadium-guide-3/

I do agree they keep many revenue streams arising out of that stadium use--that is true. 

That said--the break down was above.  They aren't pocketing an additional $400-$450 million in revenue through stadium streams.

As to UGCT--he must have missed this too.  Revenue isn't $450 million --it is approaching $600 million. 

"The UFC has become one of the world's most valuable sports franchises, with annual revenue approaching $600 million, according to one of its owners--and a worth, if you believe the smoke signals, of more than $2 billion."

http://www.fastcompany.com/3002947/ufc-tries-prove-its-capable-knockout

6/11/13 1:32 PM
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LILBROCK
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Chromium - 

This is sad because arguing about whether Fitch — who even after training expenses was still hauling in over $100,000 a year — was underpaid or not is distracting from the ore serious issue of undercard fighters who fight for the UFC and can't even make a full-time living off of it. If you fight for the UFC and aren't making at least $30,000 a year or so after training expenses, it reflects badly on the company. If you fight for the UFC you should at least be able to rent a decent apartment on your own, pay the bills, own a (used) car, and train full time as a fighter without needing a job on the side to make ends meet.

I don't think Fitch was overpaid, and I don't think it was right he was cut (I also seriously doubt his release was for financial reasons, it doesn't add up both literally and metaphorically), but I do think he's distracting from a greater issue right now.


If you fight for the UFC, the self proclaimed "Super Bowl of MMA," no fighter should be making less than $100K/year. Especially if you're on the undercard, yet have an exciting fight so they use it as a filler for the PPV and replay it on UFC Unleashed. If a fighter has done enough to earn his way to the UFC, he should not need a second job to get by. And if you fight 18 times in the Octagon, win 15 times (over 83% win rate), have an 8 fight win streak, are the consensus #2 in the world for many years, and headline a card and fight for a title, you should be able to retire.

There is no other sport/major organization in the world where you could have an 8 year career, be considered the 2nd best for many years, and not have made enough to retire comfortably.

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