UnderGround Forums
 

UnderGround Forums >> Jon Fitch responds to Dana White on fighter pay


6/11/13 6:27 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Macedawgg
34 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/2/03
Posts: 14658
Matt Phillips - 

I dont know if this has been mentioned but Zuffa has a whole office full of people that need to be paid as well.


If all 500 employees were paid $800,000 per year, there would still be a hefty sum remaining at the end of the year for the owners.

This argument does not stand up to even minimal scrutiny.

6/11/13 6:29 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Megatherium
61 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/11/13 6:48 AM
Member Since: 11/18/11
Posts: 5714
MMA is the darnedest sport. Gotta be the only sport I know of where the 'fans' actually hate the players and and idolize some dickhead league president. I'm a hockey fan and I fuckin' hate NHL commissioner Gary Bettman. The idea of hockey fans fawning over that cocksucker is ridiculous. Everybody hates Bettman. And they love the players. It's the way pro sports is supposed to work.

Nobody buys tickets to watch some loudmouth fatass goofball count his money. Well I guess Vince McMahon is a pretty big star in WWF. But last I heard, that wasn't a real sport. And old Vince, I guess, isn't exactly a fatass.
6/11/13 6:40 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ramsey
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/10/07
Posts: 2087
I have no sympathy for a person or persons who sign a contract with the understanding of what they will be making.

If there is a mirror in your home Fitch, the person looking back at you is the one you should call out and blame.


6/11/13 7:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Slapsymaxi
19 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5756
Didn't Fitch bankrupt Ryu fightwear? Phone Post 3.0
6/11/13 7:02 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
SmackyBear
22 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/10/12
Posts: 248
Macedawgg - 
Matt Phillips - 

I dont know if this has been mentioned but Zuffa has a whole office full of people that need to be paid as well.


If all 500 employees were paid $800,000 per year, there would still be a hefty sum remaining at the end of the year for the owners.

This argument does not stand up to even minimal scrutiny.


My math may be off, but that looks like $400,000,000 in staff salary.

I doubt there'd be any money left over at all at that rate. If there was still money left over after that, S&P should bump up their rating from BB.
6/11/13 7:10 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
CindyO
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/10/06
Posts: 22651
Macedawgg - 
Matt Phillips - 

I dont know if this has been mentioned but Zuffa has a whole office full of people that need to be paid as well.


If all 500 employees were paid $800,000 per year, there would still be a hefty sum remaining at the end of the year for the owners.

This argument does not stand up to even minimal scrutiny.


*scratches head* Can you explain your math to me?

 

Cindy

6/11/13 7:24 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Macedawgg
34 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/2/03
Posts: 14659
CindyO - 
Macedawgg - 
Matt Phillips - 

I dont know if this has been mentioned but Zuffa has a whole office full of people that need to be paid as well.


If all 500 employees were paid $800,000 per year, there would still be a hefty sum remaining at the end of the year for the owners.

This argument does not stand up to even minimal scrutiny.


*scratches head* Can you explain your math to me?

 

Cindy


Sure thing!

Of course, the $800k per employee is a ridiculous sum--but that was the point.

Smacky Bear's math is correct, that would total $400 million. 

The UFC's annual revenues exceed $500 million, and may approach $600 million. 

"The UFC has become one of the world's most valuable sports franchises, with annual revenue approaching $600 million, according to one of its owners--and a worth, if you believe the smoke signals, of more than $2 billion."

http://www.fastcompany.com/3002947/ufc-tries-prove-its-capable-knockout

Total compensation to fighters is approximately $70 million. We also know that from 2005 through 2011, the UFC paid total compensation of approximately $250 million to the athletes.  Source?  Lorenzo Fertitta. 

So, with staff at $800k per employee, and $70 million to talent, that is $470 million. 

Of course, the staff compensation at 800k per head is ludicrous, and that was the whole point.  That argument is ludicrous.

6/11/13 7:28 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
canuck34
45 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/27/02
Posts: 35746
D241 -

James Toney, in 1 UFC fight=

UFC 118 Fighter Salaries: James Toney Earns $500,000 in Debut Loss

 

 

"You don't understand supply and demand"

 

 

James Toney says

 

 

 

 

You just proved my point. Toney was a huge star and sold a ton of PPV.

Lol. Phone Post
6/11/13 7:37 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
hedfunk
25 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/13/11
Posts: 428
BTT-RyannVonDoom -
hedfunk - The fact is if he was more exciting as a fighter and a person he would of been paid more. Let's not beat around the bush. Even on here a forum for mma diehards, 90% of people complained about his style. He was not exciting. Not even a bit. He was the poster boy for what alot of people dislike in the sport. Lay and praying. That's not a good thing.

In most businesses you get paid more if you make more money for the business. How much did Fitch really bring in?

He maybe should of got another shot at GSP based on his record but where is the upside with that for the UFC? Did fitch change his game at all after losing to GSP? No. He himself knew that his style put him on the endangered species list. Be didn't do anything to change that. Phone Post
You just stated that mma should be sports entertainment. Phone Post 3.0
Kind of. The vast majority odd people watch sports because they're entertaining. If every fight was as exciting as a fitch fight do you think the UFC would even exist anymore?

People want to beer excited, to be entertained. Fitch obviously has skills but they aren't fun to watch. $60 is alot these days, people want their money's worth. Fitch knew that if he lost he would probably be out of a job. He had the opportunity to change his game and be more aggressive and chose not too. I don't blame him, it was successful, but he knew what would happen if he lost.

Hope he does well in WSOF. Phone Post
6/11/13 8:01 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ShamusO'nyou
193 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/27/02
Posts: 6790
I think people confuse paying fair and paying what you can get away with.

Fitch had to take it because he couldn't get paid better anywhere else, but does that mean he got paid fairly? How many top fighters that could challenge GSP existed?

There is no show without the fighters. There will never be a shortage of people willing to fight but they aren't all at the same level. Boring or not Fitch was one of the best and most real sports fans want to see that. The may root against him a la Mayweather, but you still want to see the best.

UFC can pay whatever they want, but whether you think it is right or fair depends on your morals. Alot of people believe in might equals right and doing what you can get away with.
6/11/13 8:18 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
DEZBOT
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/6/11
Posts: 891
Should have become a promoter Fitch Phone Post
6/11/13 8:31 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
leifdawg
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/13/08
Posts: 1772
Macedawgg - 
Nuevo Haole - 

Sponsorship money has little to do with the UFC,

so they guys in LFC make the same amount in sponsor $?

Terrible argument.

Just like the guys in the Arena Football League don't make the same endorsment revenue that the guys in the NFL make.  Do the Cowboys consider Romo's endorsements part of his compensation?  No--not ever. 

The UFC, by their own procolamation, is the "NFL" of MMA--that is why the sponsorship levels are higher.  Talent.


Romo doesn't get to wear his own sponsors during games.

Notice how the cornermen are always rushing to get the hats, shirts, and drinks to their fighters as soon as the fight is over? That's because they get money for having that stuff shown during the broadcast. What the UFC should do is sign an exclusive deal with Nike or Tapout or whoever to do all the equipment and then increase fighter pay with the revenue slotted to their position on the card.
6/11/13 8:44 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 20292
lookoutawhale -

I think Jon does put up a good argument. The promoters take the lions share of the money in the UFC compared to boxing where its the talent that takes most of the money on the big name fighter cards.

Jon left out his sponsorship money but he also left out UFC's sponsorship money they rake in so its fair.

Its why the UFC claims the fighter can talk about their pay when in reality their contract says they arent allowed to tell people anything about their contract. By keeping people in the dark you can then talk generically but how great your fighters are getting paid without really giving a number and then pretending its the fighters that dont want their salary to be exposed while maintaining a gag order behind the scenes. If word got around at how low the total payouts per ppv to the talent was it could become an issue.

Good for Jon to tell his side of the story.

Yes and how has that worked for boxing?

Would you like Anderson/gsp type guys to get the lions share and ALL the other fighters on the cards getting peanuts?

Not a good business model to compare too. Also the promotions get less revenue in boxing because they are not footing all the expenses in the same way that the ufc does. Phone Post
6/11/13 8:46 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 20293
ShamusO'nyou - I think people confuse paying fair and paying what you can get away with.

Fitch had to take it because he couldn't get paid better anywhere else, but does that mean he got paid fairly? How many top fighters that could challenge GSP existed?

There is no show without the fighters. There will never be a shortage of people willing to fight but they aren't all at the same level. Boring or not Fitch was one of the best and most real sports fans want to see that. The may root against him a la Mayweather, but you still want to see the best.

UFC can pay whatever they want, but whether you think it is right or fair depends on your morals. Alot of people believe in might equals right and doing what you can get away with.
Yes, he got paid what the market brought him.

If the best paying promotion in MMA negotiated Jon Fitch to xxxx per fight, that's what the free market got him. He has a manager, and there are other promotions. Phone Post
6/11/13 8:56 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ShamusO'nyou
193 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/27/02
Posts: 6792
They could comfortably pay him more and still make massive profits. They dont because they dont have to. Thats the UFC paying what they can get away with, not what they think is fair.
6/11/13 9:12 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 20295
ShamusO'nyou - They could comfortably pay him more and still make massive profits. They dont because they dont have to. Thats the UFC paying what they can get away with, not what they think is fair.
That's how the free market works fren. Phone Post
6/11/13 9:48 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
LILBROCK
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/20/13
Posts: 99
Macedawgg - 
bozy -  That's why they pay there managers isn't it. To get them the best deals. Phone Post

Yes, exactly.

http://www.fightersonlymag.com/content/news/11659-dos-santos-questions-need-for-managers-at-ufc-level

“In fact, the UFC is such an organized company that they themselves are [practically] our own managers.  Usually they already do anything they want in the US.  The manager doesn't have much of a say in UFC's decisions.... Of course they help here and there but it's very little."  --Junior Dos Santos

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Shogun-Rua-Talks-Changes-in-Management-Training-Camp-40139

"The UFC has made it clear that we don’t need a manager; all negotiations are conducted by the athletes themselves. A manager today is not like in the Pride days. At that time, they had much more weight."  Shogun Rua

Monte Cox, on ESPN’s Outside the Lines television program, stated “you don’t negotiate with the UFC.”  According to Cox, “either you can be in the UFC family or you cannot.”  Not taking what is offered puts you “outside the family."

http://www.mmajunkie.com/news/2013/01/rampage-says-ufc-bridge-burned-looking-forward-to-next-career-chapter

"UFC is a huge platform, and that's part of the problem.  When you have that big of a platform and you've got the market monopolized like that, you can say take it or leave it.": Quinton Jackson

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/3/Finding-Fedor-10538

"The contract that we were presented with by the UFC was simply impossible, couldn’t be signed -- I couldn't leave. If I won, I had to fight eight times in two years. If I lost one fight, then the UFC had the right to rip up the contract. At the conclusion of the contract, if I am undefeated, then it automatically extends for an as yet unspecified period of time, though for the same compensation. Basically I can’t leave undefeated. I can’t give interviews, appear in films or advertising. I don’t have the right to do anything without the UFC’s agreement. I could do nothing without the OK from the UFC. I didn’t have the right to compete in combat sambo competition. It’s my national sport. It’s the Russian sport, which in his time our president competed in, and I no longer have the right to do so. There were many such clauses; the contract was 18 pages in length. It was written in such a way that I had absolutely no rights while the UFC could at any moment, if something didn’t suit them, tear up the agreement. We worked with lawyers who told us that it was patently impossible to sign such a document."  --Fedor Emelianenko

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/1/10-Questions-for-Lorenzo-Fertitta-18516

"We offered the exact same contract that three hundred other guys have signed, including Brock Lesnar, Chuck Liddell, Anderson Silva, GSP, all the top stars. Why is that contract not good enough for Fedor?"  Lorenzo Fertitta

 

---Maybe not.


Funny how this has been ignored by the shills. Per Shogun, what kind of company tells you that a manager is not necessary when you're attempting to negotiate a multi year contract that will determine your livelihood?

"Oh no of course you don't need a manager or attorney even though it's a huge conflict of interest to take our advice. Don't worry, we will offer you a low ball contract that is in our best interest."

--Dana
6/11/13 10:30 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
leifdawg
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/13/08
Posts: 1773
Macedawgg - 

The NFL didn't make that revenue--the franchises did. 

The franchises are NOT tax exempt.  Afterall, the NFL is merely a partnership of the individual franchise owners.

Further, of that revenue, players receive 49%--and that is of gross revenues--not net.  How do we know?  The CBA agreement.

We also know that from the years 2005-2011, the UFC paid out in total approximately $250 million to athletes.  Source?  Lorenzo Fertitta. 

So yes, on % basis, the UFC is indeed FAR more profitable than the NFL (a non-profit) and ALL of the individual franchises. 


The UFC also has a lot more expenses than the NFL. TV companies foot the production and marketing bills that the UFC pays out of pocket each show.

Also most NFL teams own their own Stadium so they keep a larger % of gate sales as well.
6/11/13 11:15 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
B_Goetz
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/29/08
Posts: 6400
If $176k is the average of what he made over the course of 7.5 years, presumably he was making much less in the beginning and more toward the middle-to-end of his UFC career. It would be interesting to know specifically how much he was making AFTER he became an established fighter.
6/11/13 11:29 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 20301
Macedogg still trying to make terrible comparisons to the NFL? A 9.5 billion dollar revenue vs a 450-500million a year revenue? Phone Post
6/11/13 11:32 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
canuck34
45 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/27/02
Posts: 35749
B_Goetz - If $176k is the average of what he made over the course of 7.5 years, presumably he was making much less in the beginning and more toward the middle-to-end of his UFC career. It would be interesting to know specifically how much he was making AFTER he became an established fighter.
Yep. And if he had beaten GSP he would be making HuGE bank. Sorry but winning boring fights then losing a few times should not equal making millions of dollars. Phone Post
6/11/13 11:54 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Whambo
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12554
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  Macedogg still trying to make terrible comparisons to the NFL? A 9.5 billion dollar revenue vs a 450-500million a year revenue? Phone Post

ok how about the NHL? about 2.5 billion revenue, so 5x that of the UFC.

Do you think if you take the total collection of NHL players salary it will be simply 5x greater than the UFC?

It wouldn't even be comparable, a 4th line player makes 10x what Fitch a UFC star and title contender was making.

The % split of revenue that the big 4 athletes get compared to the UFC athletes is laughable. The UFC won't confirm what it is approximately, but the ESPN article had something like 3% goes to the athletes. Of couse UFC refutes this, but wouldn't give the actual value.
6/11/13 12:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
canuck34
45 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/27/02
Posts: 35751
Whambo -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  Macedogg still trying to make terrible comparisons to the NFL? A 9.5 billion dollar revenue vs a 450-500million a year revenue? Phone Post

ok how about the NHL? about 2.5 billion revenue, so 5x that of the UFC.

Do you think if you take the total collection of NHL players salary it will be simply 5x greater than the UFC?

It wouldn't even be comparable, a 4th line player makes 10x what Fitch a UFC star and title contender was making.

The % split of revenue that the big 4 athletes get compared to the UFC athletes is laughable. The UFC won't confirm what it is approximately, but the ESPN article had something like 3% goes to the athletes. Of couse UFC refutes this, but wouldn't give the actual value.
Wrong again. Lots if fourth line guys are making $600 to $800k a year. And they play 80 games to get that money. Plus they are lucky if they play 3-4 seasons. Phone Post
6/11/13 12:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 20307
Whambo -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  Macedogg still trying to make terrible comparisons to the NFL? A 9.5 billion dollar revenue vs a 450-500million a year revenue? Phone Post

ok how about the NHL? about 2.5 billion revenue, so 5x that of the UFC.

Do you think if you take the total collection of NHL players salary it will be simply 5x greater than the UFC?

It wouldn't even be comparable, a 4th line player makes 10x what Fitch a UFC star and title contender was making.

The % split of revenue that the big 4 athletes get compared to the UFC athletes is laughable. The UFC won't confirm what it is approximately, but the ESPN article had something like 3% goes to the athletes. Of couse UFC refutes this, but wouldn't give the actual value.
Does the NHL cover all the costs of doing business that the UFC does? No. The networks cover many many expenses.

Comparing any major team sport to a combat sport is ignorance. Not comparable.

Combat sports pay is based more heavily on drawing power/star status compared to major team sports.

Fitch was not a draw, never a champion, and still made gross income average of almost 200k a year. Not counting any money outside zuffa. Phone Post
6/11/13 12:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/13/11
Posts: 20308
canuck34 -
Whambo -
UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA -  Macedogg still trying to make terrible comparisons to the NFL? A 9.5 billion dollar revenue vs a 450-500million a year revenue? Phone Post

ok how about the NHL? about 2.5 billion revenue, so 5x that of the UFC.

Do you think if you take the total collection of NHL players salary it will be simply 5x greater than the UFC?

It wouldn't even be comparable, a 4th line player makes 10x what Fitch a UFC star and title contender was making.

The % split of revenue that the big 4 athletes get compared to the UFC athletes is laughable. The UFC won't confirm what it is approximately, but the ESPN article had something like 3% goes to the athletes. Of couse UFC refutes this, but wouldn't give the actual value.
Wrong again. Lots if fourth line guys are making $600 to $800k a year. And they play 80 games to get that money. Plus they are lucky if they play 3-4 seasons. Phone Post
I don't follow hockey close, but Googled and that seems about right.

Still sill to even compare the two sports. Phone Post

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.