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UnderGround Forums >> Jon Fitch responds to Dana White on fighter pay


6/10/13 2:17 PM
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TzTinkle
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ophusker - Personsally I think Fitch was paid a pretty embarrassingly low amount of money by the UFC for a guy who was one of their top fighters for as long as he was. MLB is full of utility infeilders that make more in one season then he was paid in 8 years with the UFC. The UFC is probably more profitable then any MLB franshise out there also. Not to mention other sports leagues pay for the training, coaching, equipment etc.

Considering all that goes into being a pro MMA fighter and the risks these fighters take they are seriously under paid. I honestly don't know why any young kid would want to mess around working his way up through the ranks of MMA. You take a lot of big risks put in the time, the money and everything into trying to make it. You finally get to the big time and they pay you 5K to show and 5K to win. The payoff just isn't there only the very elite of the elite are making any real money.


Yea if you compare the UFC to the other major leagues the pay is beyond pitiful. It's like they want all the benefits of exclusive talent with none of the downsides such as player unions. Just as an example of the pay differential, the human victory cigar known as Adonal Foyle made $63 million in his NBA career.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkoNgq-O3R4

That's what a players union can do for you.
6/10/13 2:25 PM
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Fan of fanboys
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Not that UFC shouldn't pay lower guys more, they should. But Fitch has nothing to complain about.
1) failed to market himself to fans 2) 'boring' fight style 3) spent more than makes, 2nd house for example 4) live in Cali, one of the most expensive states to live in
He has/had no leverage and outside GSP/Fitch fight no one tuned in or paid money to watch him. So UFC made money at those events more in spite of him rather than bc of him. There has never been a fan uproar to see him fight GSP again or to main event a PPV.

And to the idiots comparing Fitch pay to MLB: stop. They play 162 reg season games, playoffs, exhibition, team USA, practices, and teams have a MUCH larger pool of people to choose from.

Like other poster mentioned guys like Kos has made plenty of money and he has never been champ and for most part not terribly exciting either. But he made fans care, made himself a draw.

And the purpose of business is to make money. Verizon doesn't pay it's best salesman same money or even close to its executives. Even though sales team gets the people in the door and to sign contract that actually creates revenue. Stop bitching UFC makes money but not sharing it all with fighters. That's almost every business in world.

I'm for lower rung guys making more. Fitch made about what he deserved. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 2:29 PM
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Fan of fanboys
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Also UFC is still trying to establish themselves. NFL just 40 years ago guys had jobs in offseason. That didn't really end until 1970s. UFC is really only 10 years old or so, looking just modern version. Heck it's not even legal in every state yet. They're pay and fighter benefits continue to increase. Could it be faster? Maybe. I don't know all their numbers. But it's growing and getting better.
UFC is like NFL in that its the largest org for its sport. But that's it. It's not the money machine, doesn't have the sponsors, doesn't have Fox and ESPN bidding billions to have rights to air it's events, isn't as ingrained in our society. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 2:30 PM
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Jumbo Reverse Shrimp
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The UFC is making money. It's just that Dana and the rest of the non-fighters are getting it all.

LOL at you wankers defending U Fight Cheap. I suspect some of you guys are managers at iPhone plants.

6/10/13 2:32 PM
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Macedawgg
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Fan of fanboys - Also UFC is still trying to establish themselves. NFL just 40 years ago guys had jobs in offseason. That didn't really end until 1970s. UFC is really only 10 years old or so, looking just modern version. Heck it's not even legal in every state yet. They're pay and fighter benefits continue to increase. Could it be faster? Maybe. I don't know all their numbers. But it's growing and getting better.
UFC is like NFL in that its the largest org for its sport. But that's it. It's not the money machine, doesn't have the sponsors, doesn't have Fox and ESPN bidding billions to have rights to air it's events, isn't as ingrained in our society. Phone Post 3.0

Don't hurt yourself trying--

It's not the money machine?  LOL.  By their own statements, it is a cash producing gold mine and the most valuable sports franchise on earth. 

Are you kidding?

6/10/13 2:33 PM
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cycklops
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It seems like his point is "They make a lot of money so I should have made a lot more solely based on how much they made."

 

Personally I loved Fitch fights and would watch every one of them. I'd like to say "I wish he made a million dollars a fight" but that's simply unrealistic at the moment.  The notion that they make lots of money so I should too simply isn't how things work.

 

Cindy Crawford put it in her own perspective. She said something to the effect that yes, she makes millions of dollars a year for Revlon, but look at the amount of money Revlon makes using my face for everything. So millions wasn't that much in the big picture according to her.

6/10/13 2:36 PM
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Leghound
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JustTheTip - To add to that, you guys keep throwing out the $175K number as if it was his pay. Gross income is not his pay/net income when you are talking about an independent contractor. It's like saying a business makes $5M a year if their net sales are $5M a year but there annual expenses are $4.5M. In reality, they profit $500,000, not $5M.

The last time you interviewed for a job or accepted an offer was the number they threw at you your gross or your net?

6/10/13 2:39 PM
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Fan of fanboys
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Macedawgg -
Fan of fanboys - Also UFC is still trying to establish themselves. NFL just 40 years ago guys had jobs in offseason. That didn't really end until 1970s. UFC is really only 10 years old or so, looking just modern version. Heck it's not even legal in every state yet. They're pay and fighter benefits continue to increase. Could it be faster? Maybe. I don't know all their numbers. But it's growing and getting better.
UFC is like NFL in that its the largest org for its sport. But that's it. It's not the money machine, doesn't have the sponsors, doesn't have Fox and ESPN bidding billions to have rights to air it's events, isn't as ingrained in our society. Phone Post 3.0

Don't hurt yourself trying--

It's not the money machine?  LOL.  By their own statements, it is a cash producing gold mine and the most valuable sports franchise on earth. 

Are you kidding?

Don't hurt yourself with a logical response.


Lets simplify: do they make a lot of money? Yes
Do they make NFL money? No
(Still with me? Trying to use simple words)
Is it reasonable to assume a business like UFC, trying to grow and cement itself (again, still not legal everywhere, still referred to negatively as human cage fighting) might embellish just how great it is doing? Maybe as a bit of bravado and marketing?


And once again, entry level and new guys most certainly should be paid more. But I think Fitch was paid fair market value based on what he brought to the table. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 2:42 PM
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cdmontgo
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Using Fitch's numbers, he made $176k/year.

He'll get taxed on that amount (income and payroll, state and federal). I believe he is married, so his top tax rate for federal income tax is 28% and 9.3% for California. That's a combined total of 37.3%. Given the marginal rate, he will likely pay less than 25% after his tax return.

For payroll taxes, he pays 6.2% up to the limit. A rough estimate would be about 4% of his income.

His total tax bill is likely about 27% (he could very well be pouring money into tax deferred accounts to lower this rate even further).

He said 20% goes to the gym/management. I assume that's 20% gross rather than 20% net which means with taxes, he nets about 53% of his gross.

He made an average of $176k/year which would net him $93.28k/year. That's he made from his income directly from the UFC. It doesn't count sponsors, appearances, seminars, gym deals, etc.

I agree with his overall point of the fighters being underpaid given the revenue of the UFC, but this guy is earning a comfortable living. He made enough to support a family, save for retirement (he will likely need another source of income after he is done fighting and before he can fully retire), avoid debt for the most part, and enjoy a few extras out of life that most people don't have the luxury of.

There are other guys in the UFC that don't receive a livable wage. I think that should be addressed before making sure the mid-to-upper payscale guys get rich off of a handful of years of working.
6/10/13 2:43 PM
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GSP24
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The UFC is a business. Guys like Jon Fitch, while very successful in the sport, never was great for business.

Guys like Koscheck and Sonnen used to be the same as Fitch until they starting going for it. Fitch could have created more interest in his fights and could have earned more by taking more chances.

"could have" Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 2:45 PM
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Macedawgg
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Fan of fanboys - 
Macedawgg -
Fan of fanboys - Also UFC is still trying to establish themselves. NFL just 40 years ago guys had jobs in offseason. That didn't really end until 1970s. UFC is really only 10 years old or so, looking just modern version. Heck it's not even legal in every state yet. They're pay and fighter benefits continue to increase. Could it be faster? Maybe. I don't know all their numbers. But it's growing and getting better.
UFC is like NFL in that its the largest org for its sport. But that's it. It's not the money machine, doesn't have the sponsors, doesn't have Fox and ESPN bidding billions to have rights to air it's events, isn't as ingrained in our society. Phone Post 3.0

Don't hurt yourself trying--

It's not the money machine?  LOL.  By their own statements, it is a cash producing gold mine and the most valuable sports franchise on earth. 

Are you kidding?

Don't hurt yourself with a logical response.


Lets simplify: do they make a lot of money? Yes
Do they make NFL money? No
(Still with me? Trying to use simple words)
Is it reasonable to assume a business like UFC, trying to grow and cement itself (again, still not legal everywhere, still referred to negatively as human cage fighting) might embellish just how great it is doing? Maybe as a bit of bravado and marketing?


And once again, entry level and new guys most certainly should be paid more. But I think Fitch was paid fair market value based on what he brought to the table. Phone Post 3.0

LOL!

They are FAR more profitable on a % basis than the NFL. 

Further, the NFL paid low amounts in its infancy, because there was little revenue.  You concede that is not the case with the UFC, yet you still attempt to use the analogy. 

Don't try to hard.

6/10/13 2:47 PM
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kinson
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Bottom line is jon is one of the best fighters at 170 but is too boring for people to get excited about. If jon was more exciting he'd still be in the ufc and making loads more money. See dan hardy. Phone Post
6/10/13 2:57 PM
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HELWIG
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Bottom line, yes or no question:

Should being one of the best fighters in the world(and consistently demonstrating it) earn you a high enough salary that you dont have to worry about money?

If you feel "yes" then Fitch's situation sucks after 18 fights in the UFC and winning, what 15 of them?

If you feel "no" then stop pretending that the UFC is some elite org of only the best talent. If it's all about being an asshole loudmouth with tattoos then guys should stop training 10 times a week and take acting classes or focus on social networking and making youtube videos because it isnt worth the years of work to make 1/20th of what real professional athletes make.

6/10/13 2:57 PM
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luctaro
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This was an infomercial for the WSOF fight.

-Promotes the WSOF fight
-Gives some numbers he earned (leaves stuff like advertisement profits and undisclosed bonus)
-Gives admittedly incomplete info on UFC earnings.
-Promotes the WSOF fight.



If the hot topic in MMA today were to be glove sizes we would have the same video but with gloves in it.
6/10/13 3:01 PM
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Rickmassmma
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JustTheTip - 
Saltyballs - I like Fitch, but the standard question to anyone who complains about how much they got paid is, "if you thought this was too little money, then why did you sign the contract?"

I mean he obviously found it to be somewhat agreeable since he signed it and continued to re-sign with the UFC. There are a lot of guys who wish they could be making $176,000 a year.

Best of luck to him in WSoF.

With sponsors, he was probably paid close to $200,000 per year, but it's not near what he made. As he pointed out, 20%, or $40,000 went to his gym, so that leaves $160,000. That is a high tax bracket in California where they rape you in taxes. He likely paid out close to 50% but of course had write offs so he probably made $100,000 a year. That is great money for your average Joe but not for a one of the best athletes in the world at his weight class and fighting in the UFC.

Everyone pays taxes, and lots of people live in California. Saying he has to pay taxes is silly. Every job offer is based on the amount before taxes, and to act like taxes are something rare that only contractors have to pay is a strange argument.
6/10/13 3:02 PM
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Fan of fanboys
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Macedawgg -
Fan of fanboys - 
Macedawgg -
Fan of fanboys - Also UFC is still trying to establish themselves. NFL just 40 years ago guys had jobs in offseason. That didn't really end until 1970s. UFC is really only 10 years old or so, looking just modern version. Heck it's not even legal in every state yet. They're pay and fighter benefits continue to increase. Could it be faster? Maybe. I don't know all their numbers. But it's growing and getting better.
UFC is like NFL in that its the largest org for its sport. But that's it. It's not the money machine, doesn't have the sponsors, doesn't have Fox and ESPN bidding billions to have rights to air it's events, isn't as ingrained in our society. Phone Post 3.0

Don't hurt yourself trying--

It's not the money machine?  LOL.  By their own statements, it is a cash producing gold mine and the most valuable sports franchise on earth. 

Are you kidding?

Don't hurt yourself with a logical response.


Lets simplify: do they make a lot of money? Yes
Do they make NFL money? No
(Still with me? Trying to use simple words)
Is it reasonable to assume a business like UFC, trying to grow and cement itself (again, still not legal everywhere, still referred to negatively as human cage fighting) might embellish just how great it is doing? Maybe as a bit of bravado and marketing?


And once again, entry level and new guys most certainly should be paid more. But I think Fitch was paid fair market value based on what he brought to the table. Phone Post 3.0

LOL!

They are FAR more profitable on a % basis than the NFL. 

Further, the NFL paid low amounts in its infancy, because there was little revenue.  You concede that is not the case with the UFC, yet you still attempt to use the analogy. 

Don't try to hard.

NFL made $9.5 billion during the 2011-2012 season. A 16 game season playoffs.
The NFL is tax exempt.
The NFL makes $4 billion just in broadcasting rights. That's about the entire NBA revenue, which has an 82 game season playoffs.
Advertisers pay up to $4 million for a 30 second commercial during the Super Bowl.

The UFC does not have NFL money. Especially when you consider $4 billion of NFL money is just from stations paying to air their product, so little actual cost to NFL. TV deals are already in place for the league to receive about $5 billion a year from 2014 to 2021.
"As dominant as the NFL already is financially, it says it plans to boost annual revenue to $25 billion within 15 years. Eric Grubman, executive vice president of NFL ventures and business operations, said some of that growth will come from existing revenue streams, like tickets, sponsorships and television. But it also expects to see big gains from mobile media and international revenue."


UFC made a reported $500 million in revenue last year.
$9.5 billion vs $500 million. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 3:03 PM
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Fan of fanboys
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Rickmassmma -
JustTheTip - 
Saltyballs - I like Fitch, but the standard question to anyone who complains about how much they got paid is, "if you thought this was too little money, then why did you sign the contract?"

I mean he obviously found it to be somewhat agreeable since he signed it and continued to re-sign with the UFC. There are a lot of guys who wish they could be making $176,000 a year.

Best of luck to him in WSoF.

With sponsors, he was probably paid close to $200,000 per year, but it's not near what he made. As he pointed out, 20%, or $40,000 went to his gym, so that leaves $160,000. That is a high tax bracket in California where they rape you in taxes. He likely paid out close to 50% but of course had write offs so he probably made $100,000 a year. That is great money for your average Joe but not for a one of the best athletes in the world at his weight class and fighting in the UFC.

Everyone pays taxes, and lots of people live in California. Saying he has to pay taxes is silly. Every job offer is based on the amount before taxes, and to act like taxes are something rare that only contractors have to pay is a strange argument.
Texas has no state tax. So do 1-2 others. Even guys like Phil Mickelson has talked about leaving Cali and its reported other wealthy, non athletes, already have bc of their tax rate. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 3:04 PM
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luctaro
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MMAtador -  UFC is a Money machine driven by Dana and they will run over any fighter that tries to turn there business into baseball or basketball where players get a ton of money. Just can't see how someone can make 8-15k (minimum) for taking a ass whooping. Phone Post

They cant. Thats why so many people retire quickly from boxing, mma and related combat sports.

The ones who dont get their asses whopped are the ones who stay.
6/10/13 3:06 PM
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Macedawgg
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The NFL didn't make that revenue--the franchises did. 

The franchises are NOT tax exempt.  Afterall, the NFL is merely a partnership of the individual franchise owners.

Further, of that revenue, players receive 49%--and that is of gross revenues--not net.  How do we know?  The CBA agreement.

We also know that from the years 2005-2011, the UFC paid out in total approximately $250 million to athletes.  Source?  Lorenzo Fertitta. 

So yes, on % basis, the UFC is indeed FAR more profitable than the NFL (a non-profit) and ALL of the individual franchises. 

6/10/13 3:08 PM
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Fan of fanboys
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JustTheTip -
Fan of fanboys - 
Macedawgg -
Fan of fanboys - Also UFC is still trying to establish themselves. NFL just 40 years ago guys had jobs in offseason. That didn't really end until 1970s. UFC is really only 10 years old or so, looking just modern version. Heck it's not even legal in every state yet. They're pay and fighter benefits continue to increase. Could it be faster? Maybe. I don't know all their numbers. But it's growing and getting better.
UFC is like NFL in that its the largest org for its sport. But that's it. It's not the money machine, doesn't have the sponsors, doesn't have Fox and ESPN bidding billions to have rights to air it's events, isn't as ingrained in our society. Phone Post 3.0

Don't hurt yourself trying--

It's not the money machine?  LOL.  By their own statements, it is a cash producing gold mine and the most valuable sports franchise on earth. 

Are you kidding?

Don't hurt yourself with a logical response.


Lets simplify: do they make a lot of money? Yes
Do they make NFL money? No
(Still with me? Trying to use simple words)
Is it reasonable to assume a business like UFC, trying to grow and cement itself (again, still not legal everywhere, still referred to negatively as human cage fighting) might embellish just how great it is doing? Maybe as a bit of bravado and marketing?


And once again, entry level and new guys most certainly should be paid more. But I think Fitch was paid fair market value based on what he brought to the table. Phone Post 3.0

Why bring up the NFL? The NFL pays the absolute worst players in the league a minimum of $400K plus per year. The UFC pays the worst fighters who come in, lose and get cut, $6K per year. Fitch was one of the best in the WW division for many years. No one could beat him in 8 years other than #1 ranked GSP, Hendricks who is #2, and Maia who is ranked top 5. Fitch won 15 of 18 fights and has shown he's pretty much impossible to beat if you're not at the absolute top. Fighters who are the best in the world in the top MMA promotion in the world should be clearing more than $100K a year.
Fitch also wasn't marketable, his own fault, there for didn't make UFC money. Guys in NFL also don't have guaranteed contracts and get cut. The NFL also has a free built in feeder program in NCAACFB. UFC signs and promotes a guy out of pocket, with few exceptions, and assume the risk.
And again: I AM FOR HIGHER BASE PAY

Hopefully you saw it that time.
What I've said it based on what Fitch brought to the table, which is point of thread, he was paid fairly. Winning is only on part of pay when your job is a public entertainer. Guys who aren't as good but fans like more make more. They're add better actors than Keanu Reeves but he makes a lot more bc fans pay to see his movies. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 3:10 PM
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Fan of fanboys
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Macedawgg -
Fan of fanboys - 
Macedawgg -
Fan of fanboys - Also UFC is still trying to establish themselves. NFL just 40 years ago guys had jobs in offseason. That didn't really end until 1970s. UFC is really only 10 years old or so, looking just modern version. Heck it's not even legal in every state yet. They're pay and fighter benefits continue to increase. Could it be faster? Maybe. I don't know all their numbers. But it's growing and getting better.
UFC is like NFL in that its the largest org for its sport. But that's it. It's not the money machine, doesn't have the sponsors, doesn't have Fox and ESPN bidding billions to have rights to air it's events, isn't as ingrained in our society. Phone Post 3.0

Don't hurt yourself trying--

It's not the money machine?  LOL.  By their own statements, it is a cash producing gold mine and the most valuable sports franchise on earth. 

Are you kidding?

Don't hurt yourself with a logical response.


Lets simplify: do they make a lot of money? Yes
Do they make NFL money? No
(Still with me? Trying to use simple words)
Is it reasonable to assume a business like UFC, trying to grow and cement itself (again, still not legal everywhere, still referred to negatively as human cage fighting) might embellish just how great it is doing? Maybe as a bit of bravado and marketing?


And once again, entry level and new guys most certainly should be paid more. But I think Fitch was paid fair market value based on what he brought to the table. Phone Post 3.0

LOL!

They are FAR more profitable on a % basis than the NFL. 

Further, the NFL paid low amounts in its infancy, because there was little revenue.  You concede that is not the case with the UFC, yet you still attempt to use the analogy. 

Don't try to hard.

And one more thing: no one mentioned NFLs infancy. I said 40 years ago many guys still had part time jobs.. NFL has been around for about 90 years. Guys didn't really make decent money until 1980s Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 3:11 PM
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luctaro
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HELWIG - 

Bottom line, yes or no question:

Should being one of the best fighters in the world(and consistently demonstrating it) earn you a high enough salary that you dont have to worry about money?

If you feel "yes" then Fitch's situation sucks after 18 fights in the UFC and winning, what 15 of them?

If you feel "no" then stop pretending that the UFC is some elite org of only the best talent. If it's all about being an asshole loudmouth with tattoos then guys should stop training 10 times a week and take acting classes or focus on social networking and making youtube videos because it isnt worth the years of work to make 1/20th of what real professional athletes make.


Why so black and white? No grey for you ?

MMA is 'sports-entertainment'. Its a show people pay to see. And People didn't pay to see Fitch fight. This was a reality and I even remember people being upset at his paycheck after being forcefully visually molested with 15 minutes of his snuggling.
6/10/13 3:13 PM
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Fan of fanboys
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HELWIG -

Bottom line, yes or no question:

Should being one of the best fighters in the world(and consistently demonstrating it) earn you a high enough salary that you dont have to worry about money?

If you feel "yes" then Fitch's situation sucks after 18 fights in the UFC and winning, what 15 of them?

If you feel "no" then stop pretending that the UFC is some elite org of only the best talent. If it's all about being an asshole loudmouth with tattoos then guys should stop training 10 times a week and take acting classes or focus on social networking and making youtube videos because it isnt worth the years of work to make 1/20th of what real professional athletes make.

I think it's a balance. Don't want Leonard Garcia, or Jon Fitch
Chuck
A Silva
W Silva
GSP
Bendo
Dan Hebderson
Aldo
JDS
Cain
J Jones


They're all exciting and good. All built up a fan base while being productive. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 3:15 PM
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luctaro
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JustTheTip - 
Rickmassmma - 
JustTheTip - 
Saltyballs - I like Fitch, but the standard question to anyone who complains about how much they got paid is, "if you thought this was too little money, then why did you sign the contract?"

I mean he obviously found it to be somewhat agreeable since he signed it and continued to re-sign with the UFC. There are a lot of guys who wish they could be making $176,000 a year.

Best of luck to him in WSoF.

With sponsors, he was probably paid close to $200,000 per year, but it's not near what he made. As he pointed out, 20%, or $40,000 went to his gym, so that leaves $160,000. That is a high tax bracket in California where they rape you in taxes. He likely paid out close to 50% but of course had write offs so he probably made $100,000 a year. That is great money for your average Joe but not for a one of the best athletes in the world at his weight class and fighting in the UFC.

Everyone pays taxes, and lots of people live in California. Saying he has to pay taxes is silly. Every job offer is based on the amount before taxes, and to act like taxes are something rare that only contractors have to pay is a strange argument.

The #2 WW in the world for many years made an average of $100K/year (or less) from the largest organization in MMA after 8 years of service. The #2 athletes in other major sports make $20+ million.

If you know a little soccer you know Cristiano Ronaldo.

He got signed by Real Madrid FC for like 90 millions. You could say about him that he is a number 2. If you seriously think Fitch earns 90 millions worth of money for any company you are delusional.

If you think he earns 10 million worth of money you are delusional too.

I can go lower....
6/10/13 3:15 PM
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Member Since: 4/19/12
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luctaro -
HELWIG - 

Bottom line, yes or no question:

Should being one of the best fighters in the world(and consistently demonstrating it) earn you a high enough salary that you dont have to worry about money?

If you feel "yes" then Fitch's situation sucks after 18 fights in the UFC and winning, what 15 of them?

If you feel "no" then stop pretending that the UFC is some elite org of only the best talent. If it's all about being an asshole loudmouth with tattoos then guys should stop training 10 times a week and take acting classes or focus on social networking and making youtube videos because it isnt worth the years of work to make 1/20th of what real professional athletes make.


Why so black and white? No grey for you ?

MMA is 'sports-entertainment'. Its a show people pay to see. And People didn't pay to see Fitch fight. This was a reality and I even remember people being upset at his paycheck after being forcefully visually molested with 15 minutes of his snuggling.
This. I bet these same guys were ones who complained about Fitch or made jokes about his fights being good for a smoke break. Phone Post 3.0

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