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UnderGround Forums >> Jon Fitch responds to Dana White on fighter pay


6/10/13 3:22 PM
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Ip Man 81
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. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 3:24 PM
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JustTheTip -
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Macedawgg -
Fan of fanboys - Also UFC is still trying to establish themselves. NFL just 40 years ago guys had jobs in offseason. That didn't really end until 1970s. UFC is really only 10 years old or so, looking just modern version. Heck it's not even legal in every state yet. They're pay and fighter benefits continue to increase. Could it be faster? Maybe. I don't know all their numbers. But it's growing and getting better.
UFC is like NFL in that its the largest org for its sport. But that's it. It's not the money machine, doesn't have the sponsors, doesn't have Fox and ESPN bidding billions to have rights to air it's events, isn't as ingrained in our society. Phone Post 3.0

Don't hurt yourself trying--

It's not the money machine?  LOL.  By their own statements, it is a cash producing gold mine and the most valuable sports franchise on earth. 

Are you kidding?

Don't hurt yourself with a logical response.


Lets simplify: do they make a lot of money? Yes
Do they make NFL money? No
(Still with me? Trying to use simple words)
Is it reasonable to assume a business like UFC, trying to grow and cement itself (again, still not legal everywhere, still referred to negatively as human cage fighting) might embellish just how great it is doing? Maybe as a bit of bravado and marketing?


And once again, entry level and new guys most certainly should be paid more. But I think Fitch was paid fair market value based on what he brought to the table. Phone Post 3.0

Why bring up the NFL? The NFL pays the absolute worst players in the league a minimum of $400K plus per year. The UFC pays the worst fighters who come in, lose and get cut, $6K per year. Fitch was one of the best in the WW division for many years. No one could beat him in 8 years other than #1 ranked GSP, Hendricks who is #2, and Maia who is ranked top 5. Fitch won 15 of 18 fights and has shown he's pretty much impossible to beat if you're not at the absolute top. Fighters who are the best in the world in the top MMA promotion in the world should be clearing more than $100K a year.
Fitch also wasn't marketable, his own fault, there for didn't make UFC money. Guys in NFL also don't have guaranteed contracts and get cut. The NFL also has a free built in feeder program in NCAACFB. UFC signs and promotes a guy out of pocket, with few exceptions, and assume the risk.
And again: I AM FOR HIGHER BASE PAY

Hopefully you saw it that time.
What I've said it based on what Fitch brought to the table, which is point of thread, he was paid fairly. Winning is only on part of pay when your job is a public entertainer. Guys who aren't as good but fans like more make more. They're add better actors than Keanu Reeves but he makes a lot more bc fans pay to see his movies. Phone Post 3.0

It's funny when you guys say he brought next to nothing to the table as that can be said for nearly every UFC fighter on the roster other than Anderson, Jones, GSP, Cain, Aldo, Dos Santos, and maybe a few others. There are hundreds of fighters in the UFC that wouldn't draw anything if they were to headline a PPV, including Fitch. Look at the challengers and champs. Do you think Mighty Mouse, Hendricks, Cruz, Barao, Dodson, Mendes, TJ Grant, Maynard, Gustaffson, Bigfoot Silva, Stann, Weidman, etc... are draws or that casual fans even know them? Do you think millions of people would tune in to see them? Of course not. The UFC promotes the UFC and that is why a majority of people tune in. Then the UFC makes a shit load of money off the fighters that are not draws.

Look what happened when Jones decided to back out of UFC 151. They had put together such a shit card full of fighters that the UFC felt couldn't even make them a profit that they had to cancel it. They know they put 15 fighters on a card that will not draw.
It's not funny. It's the truth. So you're admitting the UFC is valuable, and not majority if the fighters. That many of faceless pieces, to average fan, and can be changed easily with a diff piece.
So since we agree there why pay these pieces more? And like you said, the guys who move the needle get paid.
Basically UFC and the big name guys you mentioned subsidize the no name guys. And UFC hopes enough of them become big names to replace current handful of draws.
It's like a softball team in college complaining the football team gets all the attention. The softball team is a money loser. Their very existence is paid for by football (sub whatever sport you want, but it's a generalization of how it works)

So until there is a reason to pay more, like fighter becomes valuable, why do it? And again, Fitch agreed to the contract. He has an agent. He wasn't worth more. And UFC paid him $300K more than they had to. And someone with the tenure Fitch had I'm sure signed multiple contracts. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 3:27 PM
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To everyone saying Fitch should make more: how much should he make and why? Gross, not net. He admits he made $176K a year gross. I don't care about his taxes or cost of living, we all have that.
So if $176K isn't enough, for Fitch specifically and what he brought to table, how much should he make and why? Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 3:32 PM
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Two things I would like to see UFC do: 1) bump base pay to higher figure. Volkman suggested $15/15. So lets go with that. 2) have a retirement program. Many companies have a 401K match. Why not UFC? They can match up to 6% or so. That's what average person gets. You fight 3 times in UFC that's what you get. Rollover to your new job if want after leave. 100% vested in 401K after day one. Heck they can even match my retirement plan. 3% 401K match (mine is 6 months, let it be after 1st fight for them) and 9.8% pension retirement plan.
You fight long time, you get better retirement. You're popular and get paid more, you get a better retirement. You fight 1-2 times. Well you got a little extra money for retirement, more than base pay. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 3:38 PM
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Macedawgg
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Nice last 2 post Fan.

6/10/13 3:40 PM
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Macedawgg -

Nice last 2 post Fan.

Thanks dude Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 3:42 PM
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Lynchman
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Ministry of Truth - 
IAmNotImpressedbyYourStocktonSlap - He isn't informing, he left out so many details about how much he actually made. Sponsorship money? Other bonuses that Dana might of given him for a damn good fight?
And he knows nothing of the UFCs actual expenses, so unless he has direct access to UFC expenses, he shouldn't be commenting on them.

I like Fitch and wish him the best in his MMA career, but he needs to just drop this and focus on kicking ass in other MMA organizations. Phone Post 3.0

Sponsorship money has little to do with the UFC, and if anything, they do more to hinder a fighter's ability to get sponsorships.


Using that logic, he should not bring up fees and other expenses. You can't include all of the costs of being a fighter and not use all of the revenue.

I think the pay should be higher, but each side simplifies things to make them sympathetic.

The UFC has additional revenue and expenses, so do fighters.

For Fitch, Anyone think Fitch is getting less than 25k, in sponsors, per fight? For some fights (headlining bouts), it is certainly more.

And as some have said, much of his expenses are tax deductible. Not saying that makes life easy, but it is factual. Some fighters have talked about deductions.

Fitch seems like a very nice guy. I feel bad for him as very few fighters of his standing generate as little fan interest as he does. Add that the fact he once is starts making 50+50 and more is when his winning ways stop. He also lost a good year due to injury. It really sucks and I feel bad for him.
6/10/13 3:42 PM
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Lynchman
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Edited: 06/10/13 3:46 PM
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This argument will always exist. Folks were complaining when new fighters made 3+3, now most new fighters start at 8+8 and folks complain.

None of us know the expenses and revenues involved. We can pick a side and make an argument, but we don't really know all of the details.

Ideally, fighter pay reaches 50%. Despite what some say, I think it runs between 30-40% right now.
6/10/13 3:44 PM
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Jumbo Reverse Shrimp
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How much do Dana et al. make? Why is shit a secret? Why is there even such a thing as back door bonuses? Why do they lie about their contracts?
6/10/13 3:49 PM
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Jumbo Reverse Shrimp - How much do Dana et al. make? Why is shit a secret? Why is there even such a thing as back door bonuses? Why do they lie about their contracts?
1) Dana is much more valuable than Fitch. Some argue more than any 1 individual fighter
2) if you don't know why there are locker room bonuses, and why it's not made public, then you are either new or not paying attention. You don't have to agree with the reasons, but they've been offered. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 3:49 PM
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DanEzra
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Fitch: UFC felt like a hostile environment. It seemed like they were trying to get rid of me and stuff.

Dana: That doesn't make sense, if we were trying to get rid of him, why would we have paid him 300k in discretionary bonuses above his contract.

Fitch: Well, the UFC doesn't pay fighters enough based on the profits they make.

...?

While it's an interesting and debatable point, I don't really see how its a 'response' to what Dana said so much as its changing the topic.

6/10/13 3:50 PM
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Lynchman
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Jumbo Reverse Shrimp - How much do Dana et al. make? Why is shit a secret? Why is there even such a thing as back door bonuses? Why do they lie about their contracts?

Why is Bellator's pay a secret? Once Tito retired, why didn't he offer us a look at his finances?

MMA pay is only made public in some areas and even then, it is only to fight and to win pay. Signing bonuses, ppv cuts and other things are not required.

The UFC is the ones that make public the SotN, FotN and TKO/KOotN bonuses, not the commissions. If they did not, we would have no idea about that aspect of the pay.

And most fighters have little interest in making public their income. Some have offered some details, but most prefer not to. Same way that most of us don't talk about our pay.
6/10/13 3:50 PM
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cdmontgo
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For the American fighters, there is nothing stopping fighters from opening a Solo-401(k) (other than not having money to put into it) as they are independent contractors. I assume most of the fighters from other countries have similar options.

Doing so gives each fighter the option of contributing the 402(g) limit of $17.5k which everyone who has any type of 401(k) has the option of doing. In addition to that, a Solo 401(k) gives each fighter access to the 415 limit of the lesser of $51k or 25% of gross income. They don't get the employer match of 6% or whatever, but they have access to save up to an additional $33.5k each year.

That beats a 6% match for most people. Of course, they would be left with the bill to pay for the admin fees, etc.

I think the fighters are better off without a company provided retirement plan assuming the company is providing retirement education so they know their options.
6/10/13 3:55 PM
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Rickmassmma
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JustTheTip - 
Rickmassmma - 
JustTheTip - 
Saltyballs - I like Fitch, but the standard question to anyone who complains about how much they got paid is, "if you thought this was too little money, then why did you sign the contract?"

I mean he obviously found it to be somewhat agreeable since he signed it and continued to re-sign with the UFC. There are a lot of guys who wish they could be making $176,000 a year.

Best of luck to him in WSoF.

With sponsors, he was probably paid close to $200,000 per year, but it's not near what he made. As he pointed out, 20%, or $40,000 went to his gym, so that leaves $160,000. That is a high tax bracket in California where they rape you in taxes. He likely paid out close to 50% but of course had write offs so he probably made $100,000 a year. That is great money for your average Joe but not for a one of the best athletes in the world at his weight class and fighting in the UFC.

Everyone pays taxes, and lots of people live in California. Saying he has to pay taxes is silly. Every job offer is based on the amount before taxes, and to act like taxes are something rare that only contractors have to pay is a strange argument.

The #2 WW in the world for many years made an average of $100K/year (or less) from the largest organization in MMA after 8 years of service. The #2 athletes in other major sports make $20+ million.

I'm not talking about what he does or doesn't deserve..simply pointing out that talking about the net is a weird way to do it. Every other athlete in every other sport that is being talked about also pays taxes, so when people keep saying that so and so makes $X per year, that is the gross. You keep talking about the net. My point is simply that I don't understand why we'd compare his net to the gross of other people.

Also, the fact that he chose to live in CA has nothing to do with it. The UFC doesn't owe him more money because he chose to live in a state with a higher tax %.

I agree with some of the things you say, but the fact that he has to pay taxes, and that those taxes are higher because of where he lives has nothing to do with the argument.
6/10/13 3:56 PM
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JustTheTip -
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JustTheTip -
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JustTheTip -
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Macedawgg -
Fan of fanboys - Also UFC is still trying to establish themselves. NFL just 40 years ago guys had jobs in offseason. That didn't really end until 1970s. UFC is really only 10 years old or so, looking just modern version. Heck it's not even legal in every state yet. They're pay and fighter benefits continue to increase. Could it be faster? Maybe. I don't know all their numbers. But it's growing and getting better.
UFC is like NFL in that its the largest org for its sport. But that's it. It's not the money machine, doesn't have the sponsors, doesn't have Fox and ESPN bidding billions to have rights to air it's events, isn't as ingrained in our society. Phone Post 3.0

Don't hurt yourself trying--

It's not the money machine?  LOL.  By their own statements, it is a cash producing gold mine and the most valuable sports franchise on earth. 

Are you kidding?

Don't hurt yourself with a logical response.


Lets simplify: do they make a lot of money? Yes
Do they make NFL money? No
(Still with me? Trying to use simple words)
Is it reasonable to assume a business like UFC, trying to grow and cement itself (again, still not legal everywhere, still referred to negatively as human cage fighting) might embellish just how great it is doing? Maybe as a bit of bravado and marketing?


And once again, entry level and new guys most certainly should be paid more. But I think Fitch was paid fair market value based on what he brought to the table. Phone Post 3.0

Why bring up the NFL? The NFL pays the absolute worst players in the league a minimum of $400K plus per year. The UFC pays the worst fighters who come in, lose and get cut, $6K per year. Fitch was one of the best in the WW division for many years. No one could beat him in 8 years other than #1 ranked GSP, Hendricks who is #2, and Maia who is ranked top 5. Fitch won 15 of 18 fights and has shown he's pretty much impossible to beat if you're not at the absolute top. Fighters who are the best in the world in the top MMA promotion in the world should be clearing more than $100K a year.
Fitch also wasn't marketable, his own fault, there for didn't make UFC money. Guys in NFL also don't have guaranteed contracts and get cut. The NFL also has a free built in feeder program in NCAACFB. UFC signs and promotes a guy out of pocket, with few exceptions, and assume the risk.
And again: I AM FOR HIGHER BASE PAY

Hopefully you saw it that time.
What I've said it based on what Fitch brought to the table, which is point of thread, he was paid fairly. Winning is only on part of pay when your job is a public entertainer. Guys who aren't as good but fans like more make more. They're add better actors than Keanu Reeves but he makes a lot more bc fans pay to see his movies. Phone Post 3.0

It's funny when you guys say he brought next to nothing to the table as that can be said for nearly every UFC fighter on the roster other than Anderson, Jones, GSP, Cain, Aldo, Dos Santos, and maybe a few others. There are hundreds of fighters in the UFC that wouldn't draw anything if they were to headline a PPV, including Fitch. Look at the challengers and champs. Do you think Mighty Mouse, Hendricks, Cruz, Barao, Dodson, Mendes, TJ Grant, Maynard, Gustaffson, Bigfoot Silva, Stann, Weidman, etc... are draws or that casual fans even know them? Do you think millions of people would tune in to see them? Of course not. The UFC promotes the UFC and that is why a majority of people tune in. Then the UFC makes a shit load of money off the fighters that are not draws.

Look what happened when Jones decided to back out of UFC 151. They had put together such a shit card full of fighters that the UFC felt couldn't even make them a profit that they had to cancel it. They know they put 15 fighters on a card that will not draw.
It's not funny. It's the truth. So you're admitting the UFC is valuable, and not majority if the fighters. That many of faceless pieces, to average fan, and can be changed easily with a diff piece.
So since we agree there why pay these pieces more? And like you said, the guys who move the needle get paid.
Basically UFC and the big name guys you mentioned subsidize the no name guys. And UFC hopes enough of them become big names to replace current handful of draws.
It's like a softball team in college complaining the football team gets all the attention. The softball team is a money loser. Their very existence is paid for by football (sub whatever sport you want, but it's a generalization of how it works)

So until there is a reason to pay more, like fighter becomes valuable, why do it? And again, Fitch agreed to the contract. He has an agent. He wasn't worth more. And UFC paid him $300K more than they had to. And someone with the tenure Fitch had I'm sure signed multiple contracts. Phone Post 3.0

College softball vs football? What a terrible analogy. In order for the fans to enjoy the college football game they are not entertained by the softball game first. That analogy basically states that any undercard fight is horribly boring and no one wants to watch the fights but the UFC puts them on there and they are paid because of the main event. Undercard fights are typically awesome and I'd imagine are more often FOTN, SOTN, or KOOTN. My point is that the UFC should be paying these guys accordingly if they are the on the main card of a UFC PPV that is bringing in tens of millions of dollars. There should not be anyone making $6K + $6K and tenured fighters should be netting more than $100K a year. Just because someone didn't initially purchase a PPV to watch the opening fight of a show, they were still entertained by them.

I agree that the low should be $15K + $15K but I also think that should go up if you're on the main PPV card, co main eventing, or on a FOX card. Not many will watch an NBA game to see the 6th or 7th man come off the bench but those guys sure as hell contribute to the game and are compensated for it.
Your entire rebuttal is flawed.
I didn't say softball was boring, but that it isn't popular. Without football it wouldn't be sustainable.
Without the big names and UFC pushing guys like Fitch wouldn't be sustainable.
And you're not forced to watch the undercard, if follow your example, but we still pay for it to see the main event. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 3:58 PM
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luctaro
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FROM JustTheTip: ""1) Ronaldo does not make $90M a year. Quit lying

2) No one said Fitch should make $90M a year.

3) No one said Fitch should make $10M a year.

4) An athlete headlining PPV's and fighting on some of the biggest cards the UFC has put together should net more than $100K in a year

Pay attention. ""

///

1) Infamy!! YOU learn to fucking read YOU talked about years not me. Never even wrote the word. I pointed out Fitch doesnt earn for the company the big contracts other number 2 earn for theirs. Tell me if you are saying 2012 Fitch fights are worth a seven figure number.

2) Thats true and I didnt said that EITHER.

3) Thats true and I didnt said that EITHER.

4) He got paid what said in the contract he signed. Other people in those card got paid millions.
The only fight I can think of right now where he should have made more money was the GSP fight. If he headlined other PPVs then yes he should have made more money for those.
Negotiate for it Fitch like the other people headlining PPV!!
6/10/13 4:02 PM
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And let's quit talking about his net of roughly $100K/year. All that matters is his gross. He determines his cost of living.

And still haven't got an actual dollar amount of what Jon Fitch is worth and a reason why.

And let's not forget that average we are using includes his base from 7 1:2 years ago. Kinda messes up the numbers. If we really wanted to be honest in our breakdown we need each individual year. Because if he made $30K the first year and $322K the best year, same average, then the outrage needs to subside.

Heck my income has gone up 2 1/2 from when I got my first full time job. If I looked at my average last 7.5 years compared to the last year it'd be two diff numbers. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 4:09 PM
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Stephen Holder - Theres one obvious thing that nobody ever brings up in these threads about fighter pay and I think its funny because its probably the one single factor that influences why the UFC pays fighters what they do...

Dana and the Fertitas will vehemently deny it because it sounds awful to say and you can vote me down until your blue in the face but its the fucking truth:

Fighters have to remain hungry and when most fighters lifestyle changes because they have more money, their motivations change. In one way or another the resulting shift in who they become outside of the cage, affects the type of fighter they are inside the cage and they usually fight for entirely different reasons (they lose their hunger.)

I believe Dana when he said on JRE that he couldn't give a fuck less about money. I don't think that Zuffa after they recouped their losses from early on cant afford to pay their fighters in a fiscal sense literately but rather they cant afford to pay their fighters too much because they will become soft.

I think that the UFC pays its fighters just enough to keep them still hungry until its obvious that they cant justify doing so anymore.
Actually Dana has mentioned it a few times. It's not a secret. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 4:11 PM
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IIAces
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Wait he can make deduction but UFC can't?

The UFC rented the venue for those events. Had to pay a fee to the vender to provide food drink ect. Paid for all the promotions for the fights. Flew your ass to every fight. Paid your flights to press conferences. Not to mention your week of hotel stay for your fights. Or hotel stays for press conferences.

What did Jon make off sponsors? Jon made a lot of money because of the UFC too.

All this pay talk is fucking stupid. Your a sub contractor. You don't like the contract presented to you, don't fucking sign it. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 4:15 PM
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Da Ghost
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Wonder how much he made in sponsorship for all those UFC fights Phone Post
6/10/13 4:17 PM
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Sid22
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Fitch is a whiner.. nobody has EVER bought a PPV to watch Fitch... management and gym fees are his problem why should UFC pay that? 176000\year for Fitch is a GREAT pay rate...like seriously.. hes not gonna make close to that over the next 7 years fighting for anyone else....
6/10/13 4:17 PM
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luctaro
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Fan of fanboys - And let's quit talking about his net of roughly $100K/year. All that matters is his gross. He determines his cost of living.

And still haven't got an actual dollar amount of what Jon Fitch is worth and a reason why.

And let's not forget that average we are using includes his base from 7 1:2 years ago. Kinda messes up the numbers. If we really wanted to be honest in our breakdown we need each individual year. Because if he made $30K the first year and $322K the best year, same average, then the outrage needs to subside.

Heck my income has gone up 2 1/2 from when I got my first full time job. If I looked at my average last 7.5 years compared to the last year it'd be two diff numbers. Phone Post 3.0

I check a bit out of curiosity:

2012:
-UFC 156 in Nevada: 66,000 to lose.
-UFC 153 in Brazil: no pay reported for a win. We know he got an official Fight of the Night bonus worth 70 000.

Since I had no pay for 153 I looked for his 2011 UFC 141 Hendricks fight. He got paid 60 000 to get bombed by mini-hendo.
6/10/13 4:18 PM
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IIAces
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And no fighter makes millions a fight. GSP made 200k to show and 270k to win last fight. The bonus of PPV points and shit are earned by the fighter. Fighters get bonuses on case by case.

Jon is going off number listed by athletic commissions. Someone add up GSPs pay. But only add the pay that's turned in to the commission. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 4:19 PM
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Sid22
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he also didnt deduct any of the UFCs production insurance licensing and fighter pay so that 208 million # is grossly inflated...Fitch aint the brightest guy thats for sure...
6/10/13 4:23 PM
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Stephen Holder -
Fan of fanboys - 
Stephen Holder - Theres one obvious thing that nobody ever brings up in these threads about fighter pay and I think its funny because its probably the one single factor that influences why the UFC pays fighters what they do...

Dana and the Fertitas will vehemently deny it because it sounds awful to say and you can vote me down until your blue in the face but its the fucking truth:

Fighters have to remain hungry and when most fighters lifestyle changes because they have more money, their motivations change. In one way or another the resulting shift in who they become outside of the cage, affects the type of fighter they are inside the cage and they usually fight for entirely different reasons (they lose their hunger.)

I believe Dana when he said on JRE that he couldn't give a fuck less about money. I don't think that Zuffa after they recouped their losses from early on cant afford to pay their fighters in a fiscal sense literately but rather they cant afford to pay their fighters too much because they will become soft.

I think that the UFC pays its fighters just enough to keep them still hungry until its obvious that they cant justify doing so anymore.
Actually Dana has mentioned it a few times. It's not a secret. Phone Post 3.0

You sure? I know Dana has mentioned guys getting crazy with too much fame and money being young or inexperienced (like he used to talk about Vitor when he was young and worrying that Jon Jones would make similar mistakes.) I've never heard him actually say that they cant pay guys more because they change. I've only heard him claim that him and Lorenzo fantasize about the day they will be able to pay their fighters 'Mayweather' money.
He didn't say doesn't pay bc of it, but has said guys lose fire and will to fight bc of money.
Griffin even said he used to go to the gym bc was better than his life. Once he got money his life was better than going to the gym. Phone Post 3.0

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