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UnderGround Forums >> Jon Fitch responds to Dana White on fighter pay


6/10/13 10:04 PM
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YouCantHandleMyRiddum
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The day the average fighter will start making serious money is when there is real competition for the UFC (which will most be very difficult).

6/10/13 10:09 PM
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Lord Zeik
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JustTheTip -
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Macedawgg -
Fan of fanboys - Also UFC is still trying to establish themselves. NFL just 40 years ago guys had jobs in offseason. That didn't really end until 1970s. UFC is really only 10 years old or so, looking just modern version. Heck it's not even legal in every state yet. They're pay and fighter benefits continue to increase. Could it be faster? Maybe. I don't know all their numbers. But it's growing and getting better.
UFC is like NFL in that its the largest org for its sport. But that's it. It's not the money machine, doesn't have the sponsors, doesn't have Fox and ESPN bidding billions to have rights to air it's events, isn't as ingrained in our society. Phone Post 3.0

Don't hurt yourself trying--

It's not the money machine?  LOL.  By their own statements, it is a cash producing gold mine and the most valuable sports franchise on earth. 

Are you kidding?

Don't hurt yourself with a logical response.


Lets simplify: do they make a lot of money? Yes
Do they make NFL money? No
(Still with me? Trying to use simple words)
Is it reasonable to assume a business like UFC, trying to grow and cement itself (again, still not legal everywhere, still referred to negatively as human cage fighting) might embellish just how great it is doing? Maybe as a bit of bravado and marketing?


And once again, entry level and new guys most certainly should be paid more. But I think Fitch was paid fair market value based on what he brought to the table. Phone Post 3.0

Why bring up the NFL? The NFL pays the absolute worst players in the league a minimum of $400K plus per year. The UFC pays the worst fighters who come in, lose and get cut, $6K per year. Fitch was one of the best in the WW division for many years. No one could beat him in 8 years other than #1 ranked GSP, Hendricks who is #2, and Maia who is ranked top 5. Fitch won 15 of 18 fights and has shown he's pretty much impossible to beat if you're not at the absolute top. Fighters who are the best in the world in the top MMA promotion in the world should be clearing more than $100K a year.
But why? He fights for what 45 minutes to an hour a year. That's honestly a lot of money for an hour of work. Phone Post
6/10/13 10:18 PM
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Mr Beautiful
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Hikikomori -  good for Fitch. its too bad the tard mma fans will blindly bash him.

i do think fighters like Fitch should move from expensive california. Phone Post

Voted Up.
6/10/13 10:20 PM
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Yaang Sam Kun
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To the above post. Definitely fan boy. Have you ever TRANED? Its is a 365 day commitment and the reason men's health tries to act like baseball and football players get in shape to it. Ha. Ive practiced Muay Thai for 15 years because out of all sports ( football, soccer, baseball, basketball) where i earned accolades and atta boys, it is the only true test of self, with no gimmies. You and another facing off because you, live and feel the pain to get there ... and sometimes bring the pain in there. The argument that baseball is near equal because of number of gamez? There is a site on the interwebs called YouTube. You can watch a full game of "action" in 4 minutes. Don't post again until you hit high school. Thank you " the UG" Phone Post
6/10/13 10:23 PM
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Uchi
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I'm glad Fitch brought it up, because this dialogue is hurting no one and should continue to be discussed. By his time on here and what I've heard from him in the media, he seems to be a good, level headed guy. Its unfortunate that he has not made the right financial decisions to give himself some more stability.

I would agree that as a top flight fighter at the peak of his abilities circa 2010 he was underpaid, though I can't speak to the duration and timing of the contract that he signed.
That being said, when we look at Fitch's pay over his career, lets not forgot he started in 2005. This was the UFC's baseline..the year of TUF, and the year Griffin-Bonnar really gave them the exposure that they sorely needed for explosive growth. 8 years is still not that long a period of time, and to see the majority of fighter pay to lag behind the an organizations expanding revenue stream should be expected to a degree.

Hope Jon excels in WSOF and brings home the money he needs. A little self promotion will not hurt him, given his fighting style, even if it is not his personality. I trhink if he opens up and takes more chances, we'll see him back in UFC in time if he wants.
6/10/13 10:25 PM
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MaliceX
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Lord Zeik - 
JustTheTip -
Fan of fanboys - 
Macedawgg -
Fan of fanboys - Also UFC is still trying to establish themselves. NFL just 40 years ago guys had jobs in offseason. That didn't really end until 1970s. UFC is really only 10 years old or so, looking just modern version. Heck it's not even legal in every state yet. They're pay and fighter benefits continue to increase. Could it be faster? Maybe. I don't know all their numbers. But it's growing and getting better.
UFC is like NFL in that its the largest org for its sport. But that's it. It's not the money machine, doesn't have the sponsors, doesn't have Fox and ESPN bidding billions to have rights to air it's events, isn't as ingrained in our society. Phone Post 3.0

Don't hurt yourself trying--

It's not the money machine?  LOL.  By their own statements, it is a cash producing gold mine and the most valuable sports franchise on earth. 

Are you kidding?

Don't hurt yourself with a logical response.


Lets simplify: do they make a lot of money? Yes
Do they make NFL money? No
(Still with me? Trying to use simple words)
Is it reasonable to assume a business like UFC, trying to grow and cement itself (again, still not legal everywhere, still referred to negatively as human cage fighting) might embellish just how great it is doing? Maybe as a bit of bravado and marketing?


And once again, entry level and new guys most certainly should be paid more. But I think Fitch was paid fair market value based on what he brought to the table. Phone Post 3.0

Why bring up the NFL? The NFL pays the absolute worst players in the league a minimum of $400K plus per year. The UFC pays the worst fighters who come in, lose and get cut, $6K per year. Fitch was one of the best in the WW division for many years. No one could beat him in 8 years other than #1 ranked GSP, Hendricks who is #2, and Maia who is ranked top 5. Fitch won 15 of 18 fights and has shown he's pretty much impossible to beat if you're not at the absolute top. Fighters who are the best in the world in the top MMA promotion in the world should be clearing more than $100K a year.
But why? He fights for what 45 minutes to an hour a year. That's honestly a lot of money for an hour of work. Phone Post

Hey look at this moran right here^^^

You have never trained a day in your life for anything have you?



6/10/13 10:35 PM
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TexasBadAss
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Edited: 06/10/13 10:36 PM
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grafzep - 176,000/yr over his entire career with the UFC

He would find his true value by fighting Koscheck on a card they indy promoted. You could throw in the guys who were making 15/15 and upset. They could split the gate or try a ppv cut. That would tell him real fast if he was over or under paid.
6/10/13 10:46 PM
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Jay Haas
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I Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 10:48 PM
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Fan of fanboys
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Yaang Sam Kun - To the above post. Definitely fan boy. Have you ever TRANED? Its is a 365 day commitment and the reason men's health tries to act like baseball and football players get in shape to it. Ha. Ive practiced Muay Thai for 15 years because out of all sports ( football, soccer, baseball, basketball) where i earned accolades and atta boys, it is the only true test of self, with no gimmies. You and another facing off because you, live and feel the pain to get there ... and sometimes bring the pain in there. The argument that baseball is near equal because of number of gamez? There is a site on the interwebs called YouTube. You can watch a full game of "action" in 4 minutes. Don't post again until you hit high school. Thank you " the UG" Phone Post
Ummm...so lets try to break this down, though your lack of cohesion and flow make it hard.
I was a division II wrestler. Spent most of my life wrestling. Couple years boxing. Year of jiu jitsu.
Now I by no means compare anything I've accomplished to that of a UFC fighter. Know why? Doesn't mean a damn thing relevant to the topic at hand. You're entire post isn't relevant to the topic.
The topic is: was Jon Fitch underpaid, overpaid, or fairly compensated.
You don't get paid to train. You can think that you should, but doesn't make it reality. You get paid for the time in the cage. (And whatever media obligations UFC requires)
So telling me about your time doing competitions is worthless.
Just bc guys do MMA style workouts to increase fitness means nothing either. And to say a guy who fights 1-2 times a year, so with 8 week camp that's 16 weeks of 'traneing', should be paid what a MLB guy makes shows a lack of comprehension. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 10:50 PM
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Fan of fanboys
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Uchi - I'm glad Fitch brought it up, because this dialogue is hurting no one and should continue to be discussed. By his time on here and what I've heard from him in the media, he seems to be a good, level headed guy. Its unfortunate that he has not made the right financial decisions to give himself some more stability.

I would agree that as a top flight fighter at the peak of his abilities circa 2010 he was underpaid, though I can't speak to the duration and timing of the contract that he signed.
That being said, when we look at Fitch's pay over his career, lets not forgot he started in 2005. This was the UFC's baseline..the year of TUF, and the year Griffin-Bonnar really gave them the exposure that they sorely needed for explosive growth. 8 years is still not that long a period of time, and to see the majority of fighter pay to lag behind the an organizations expanding revenue stream should be expected to a degree.

Hope Jon excels in WSOF and brings home the money he needs. A little self promotion will not hurt him, given his fighting style, even if it is not his personality. I trhink if he opens up and takes more chances, we'll see him back in UFC in time if he wants.
Good post, especially the first paragraph. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 10:51 PM
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KingInFishnetsBottomingBetas
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TexasBadAss - 
grafzep - 176,000/yr over his entire career with the UFC

He would find his true value by fighting Koscheck on a card they indy promoted. You could throw in the guys who were making 15/15 and upset. They could split the gate or try a ppv cut. That would tell him real fast if he was over or under paid.

Really stupid, GSP wouldn't hit those numbers he does on a self promoted card.
6/10/13 10:52 PM
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LILBROCK
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Fan of fanboys - 
Yaang Sam Kun - To the above post. Definitely fan boy. Have you ever TRANED? Its is a 365 day commitment and the reason men's health tries to act like baseball and football players get in shape to it. Ha. Ive practiced Muay Thai for 15 years because out of all sports ( football, soccer, baseball, basketball) where i earned accolades and atta boys, it is the only true test of self, with no gimmies. You and another facing off because you, live and feel the pain to get there ... and sometimes bring the pain in there. The argument that baseball is near equal because of number of gamez? There is a site on the interwebs called YouTube. You can watch a full game of "action" in 4 minutes. Don't post again until you hit high school. Thank you " the UG" Phone Post
Ummm...so lets try to break this down, though your lack of cohesion and flow make it hard.
I was a division II wrestler. Spent most of my life wrestling. Couple years boxing. Year of jiu jitsu.
Now I by no means compare anything I've accomplished to that of a UFC fighter. Know why? Doesn't mean a damn thing relevant to the topic at hand. You're entire post isn't relevant to the topic.
The topic is: was Jon Fitch underpaid, overpaid, or fairly compensated.
You don't get paid to train. You can think that you should, but doesn't make it reality. You get paid for the time in the cage. (And whatever media obligations UFC requires)
So telling me about your time doing competitions is worthless.
Just bc guys do MMA style workouts to increase fitness means nothing either. And to say a guy who fights 1-2 times a year, so with 8 week camp that's 16 weeks of 'traneing', should be paid what a MLB guy makes shows a lack of comprehension. Phone Post 3.0

He was responding to the guy who said Fitch (and other UFC fighters for that matter) only work 1 hour per year. He was right by calling out the idiot for posting an idiotic comment.
6/10/13 10:58 PM
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Fan of fanboys
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LILBROCK -
Fan of fanboys - 
Yaang Sam Kun - To the above post. Definitely fan boy. Have you ever TRANED? Its is a 365 day commitment and the reason men's health tries to act like baseball and football players get in shape to it. Ha. Ive practiced Muay Thai for 15 years because out of all sports ( football, soccer, baseball, basketball) where i earned accolades and atta boys, it is the only true test of self, with no gimmies. You and another facing off because you, live and feel the pain to get there ... and sometimes bring the pain in there. The argument that baseball is near equal because of number of gamez? There is a site on the interwebs called YouTube. You can watch a full game of "action" in 4 minutes. Don't post again until you hit high school. Thank you " the UG" Phone Post
Ummm...so lets try to break this down, though your lack of cohesion and flow make it hard.
I was a division II wrestler. Spent most of my life wrestling. Couple years boxing. Year of jiu jitsu.
Now I by no means compare anything I've accomplished to that of a UFC fighter. Know why? Doesn't mean a damn thing relevant to the topic at hand. You're entire post isn't relevant to the topic.
The topic is: was Jon Fitch underpaid, overpaid, or fairly compensated.
You don't get paid to train. You can think that you should, but doesn't make it reality. You get paid for the time in the cage. (And whatever media obligations UFC requires)
So telling me about your time doing competitions is worthless.
Just bc guys do MMA style workouts to increase fitness means nothing either. And to say a guy who fights 1-2 times a year, so with 8 week camp that's 16 weeks of 'traneing', should be paid what a MLB guy makes shows a lack of comprehension. Phone Post 3.0

He was responding to the guy who said Fitch (and other UFC fighters for that matter) only work 1 hour per year. He was right by calling out the idiot for posting an idiotic comment.
Hmm. Maybe you're right. I assumed he meant me since said fanboy.
Either way, his post was poorly written, even by forum standards. Typos happen. His seemed like be was drunk. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 10:59 PM
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Haulport
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I'm really glad Jon is speaking up and telling Dana and the Fertitta's to go fuck themselves. A lot of fighters feel this way and Jon is finally in a position where he can talk about it.

Jon fought on 18 cards that made probably more than ONE BILLION DOLLARS fo Zuffa and he was one of the higher paid fighters on those cards and he mad $1mill. That is one tenth of a percent. If every fighter on every one of those cards made as much as Jon then the fighters would have made 34% of the revs. In Football it is basically a 50/50 split between teams and players on revenue.

Zuffa's behavior in these matters is disgracefu and all the stories about Dana wheeling around Vegas dropping $10k tips and $40k meals makes it 100 times worse........

6/10/13 11:02 PM
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Yaang Sam Kun
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Fan of fanboys. This was not directed towards you, i guess now your screen name will no longer seem funny. I apologize for your butthurt, if you wrestled, even at DIV II i expect more. Before MMA was as cool as NSYNC I was starting out my ways in Muay Thai. One of my buddies friends was D1 and showed me the true meaning of the "Gut wrencher". Anyone who pushes themselves to the limit and loves competition and what it makes of them... would know this... I would like to hear intelligent speak , perhaps become online forum butt buddies. But until you realize every response on a thread is not about you, I wish you the best Phone Post
6/10/13 11:03 PM
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ShakeR_
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Triangle Choked - I should go ask for a raise because what they pay me is before taxes, expenses to get to work and maintenance on my car to get to work. Think ill get it? Phone Post 3.0
This.

And he's a hypocrite. fitch wants us to factor in all his costs like 'equipment' (wtf was he buying - entire gyms worth of weight machines to make a significant dent in $1.2 million - gtfo with your 'equipment costs')

Yet, when he talks about the UFC he accounted for the 50% going to Comcast then left out the list of a hundred other expenses the UFC has putting on a show - including payroll for hundreds of people (businesses create jobs...weird...).

To anyone in the United States bitching about how much your employer pays you - go start your own business (it can be just like the one you work at now) - its a free country. Draw up a business plan, take it to the bank, build a business better than the one you're bitching about now. If you can't do this, then that's why you don't make as much as the guy who can. Phone Post
6/10/13 11:06 PM
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Yaang Sam Kun
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Thanks for that LILBROCK, and fanboy.. its all good... im making dinner after 12 hr day trying to type fast and get thoughts out while this misses gets pissed. Id like to believe that all my brethren come herfor the same reason..... no kne else understands what we do... even though she says she does! Phone Post
6/10/13 11:09 PM
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FirstScratch
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Dana initiated the talk about pay, not Fitch. It seems a bit unfair for people to shit on Jon for responding to Dana's statement. Dana's typical response to a fighter's complaint, regardless of what the issue is, is basically fuck you we paid you more than you would have made elsewhere. That's absolutely true, but it also demonstrates Dana's inability to turn criticism into something constructive. IMO, the issue of fighter pay, which Dana is actually responsible for starting in this case, is a valid one. Part time fighters that only make 8k to show shouldn't be in the most prestigious MMA promotion in the world. What the UFC pays fighters is peanuts when put into context. Fitch made good money, not great money. Phone Post
6/10/13 11:13 PM
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Yaang Sam Kun
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Fan of fanboys -
LILBROCK -
Fan of fanboys - 
Yaang Sam Kun - To the above post. Definitely fan boy. Have you ever TRANED? Its is a 365 day commitment and the reason men's health tries to act like baseball and football players get in shape to it. Ha. Ive practiced Muay Thai for 15 years because out of all sports ( football, soccer, baseball, basketball) where i earned accolades and atta boys, it is the only true test of self, with no gimmies. You and another facing off because you, live and feel the pain to get there ... and sometimes bring the pain in there. The argument that baseball is near equal because of number of gamez? There is a site on the interwebs called YouTube. You can watch a full game of "action" in 4 minutes. Don't post again until you hit high school. Thank you " the UG" Phone Post
Ummm...so lets try to break this down, though your lack of cohesion and flow make it hard.
I was a division II wrestler. Spent most of my life wrestling. Couple years boxing. Year of jiu jitsu.
Now I by no means compare anything I've accomplished to that of a UFC fighter. Know why? Doesn't mean a damn thing relevant to the topic at hand. You're entire post isn't relevant to the topic.
The topic is: was Jon Fitch underpaid, overpaid, or fairly compensated.
You don't get paid to train. You can think that you should, but doesn't make it reality. You get paid for the time in the cage. (And whatever media obligations UFC requires)
So telling me about your time doing competitions is worthless.
Just bc guys do MMA style workouts to increase fitness means nothing either. And to say a guy who fights 1-2 times a year, so with 8 week camp that's 16 weeks of 'traneing', should be paid what a MLB guy makes shows a lack of comprehension. Phone Post 3.0

He was responding to the guy who said Fitch (and other UFC fighters for that matter) only work 1 hour per year. He was right by calling out the idiot for posting an idiotic comment.
Hmm. Maybe you're right. I assumed he meant me since said fanboy.
Either way, his post was poorly written, even by forum standards. Typos happen. His seemed like be was drunk. Phone Post 3.0
Btw, i finally got the app after gheying it up on the blackberry after all these Years. All lovw in the UG brudda Phone Post
6/10/13 11:18 PM
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Whambo
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hendofanforlife - 
Whambo - 
hendofanforlife - Wow you rode others popularity on ppvs. How many people bought it cause he was on it? Near zero.

You aren't a real fan, and I honestly wish you were not part of this forum.

Wait so I don't like fitch's sour grapes and I'm not a fan? Sorry but fact remains almost no one bought a ppv directly because of fitch. I didn't say he sucks or is boring. In fact I've enjoyed many of his fights but his bitching is pathetic.

His sour grapes? I honestly don't think you know what that expression means. I'd like you to explain how someone making a factual video outlining how much money he made to clear the air is sour grapes. You can't, you're making shit up, just like when you referred to his video as "bitching". There is nothing in that video that is "bitching" in the least.

And your second part clearly demonstrates why your not a true fan. The fans like the UFC because of the whole card, not just the main event. This is why people come to UFC events early to watch the prelims. To say nobody bought the card because of Fitch is an assumption first off, and could be said about anyone outside of the main event on any given card. The true fans look at the fight card as a whole before making a purchase, not just one fighter in particular. I've never once since I've been a fan, and I've been a fan waaaaaay longer than you thought that any fighter was riding another fighters popularity by simply doing his job and showing up to fight. It doesn't even make any sense to me, you are completely out of touch.
6/10/13 11:38 PM
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BTT-RyannVonDoom
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hedfunk - The fact is if he was more exciting as a fighter and a person he would of been paid more. Let's not beat around the bush. Even on here a forum for mma diehards, 90% of people complained about his style. He was not exciting. Not even a bit. He was the poster boy for what alot of people dislike in the sport. Lay and praying. That's not a good thing.

In most businesses you get paid more if you make more money for the business. How much did Fitch really bring in?

He maybe should of got another shot at GSP based on his record but where is the upside with that for the UFC? Did fitch change his game at all after losing to GSP? No. He himself knew that his style put him on the endangered species list. Be didn't do anything to change that. Phone Post
You just stated that mma should be sports entertainment. Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 11:55 PM
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hendofanforlife
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Whambo - 
hendofanforlife - 
Whambo - 
hendofanforlife - Wow you rode others popularity on ppvs. How many people bought it cause he was on it? Near zero.

You aren't a real fan, and I honestly wish you were not part of this forum.

Wait so I don't like fitch's sour grapes and I'm not a fan? Sorry but fact remains almost no one bought a ppv directly because of fitch. I didn't say he sucks or is boring. In fact I've enjoyed many of his fights but his bitching is pathetic.

His sour grapes? I honestly don't think you know what that expression means. I'd like you to explain how someone making a factual video outlining how much money he made to clear the air is sour grapes. You can't, you're making shit up, just like when you referred to his video as "bitching". There is nothing in that video that is "bitching" in the least.

And your second part clearly demonstrates why your not a true fan. The fans like the UFC because of the whole card, not just the main event. This is why people come to UFC events early to watch the prelims. To say nobody bought the card because of Fitch is an assumption first off, and could be said about anyone outside of the main event on any given card. The true fans look at the fight card as a whole before making a purchase, not just one fighter in particular. I've never once since I've been a fan, and I've been a fan waaaaaay longer than you thought that any fighter was riding another fighters popularity by simply doing his job and showing up to fight. It doesn't even make any sense to me, you are completely out of touch.

First off I'm not referencing a single video but fitch's complaints in general. No where do I reference any video. first it was hostile work environment and now it's I fought at all these high value ppv and look how much they made. Yes it's bitching.

Losing fights and not very popular? Well then you're an interchangeable guy with little earning value and maybe no need to occupy a roster spot. Same as any promotion. It's not how I personally feel about the fighters it's their value to the UFC through additional ppv sales. Hard for you to accept the reality that fitch got paid what he was worth. If he was worth more someone else would have given it to him. Economics rules even in mma. Being really good doesn't guarantee popularity.
6/10/13 11:56 PM
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dwhy83
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McDonalds makes millions, and I only get a fraction of that at minimum wage. What gives???? Phone Post 3.0
6/10/13 11:57 PM
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TheKidAintMine
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KingInFishnetsBottomingBetas - 
TexasBadAss - 
grafzep - 176,000/yr over his entire career with the UFC

He would find his true value by fighting Koscheck on a card they indy promoted. You could throw in the guys who were making 15/15 and upset. They could split the gate or try a ppv cut. That would tell him real fast if he was over or under paid.

Really stupid, GSP wouldn't hit those numbers he does on a self promoted card.

That's kind of the point. TBA is talking about finding Fitch's "true value", which in his post refers to his market value. What Fitch can command either by promoting himself or from other promotions.

The die hard fans on this board seriously overestimate the popularity of MMA. Most casual sports fans don't even know what MMA stands for. The UFC brand is kind of popular among a certain demographic, but even then, at best, it's still a niche brand. But that said, the UFC brand is still far more popular than any one fighter. The brand itself sells more PPV's than any one fighter.

There is no MMA fighter right now who can promote his own fights and even begin to compete with the UFC brand. No MMA fighter today can promote his own fight and make that Floyd Mayweather money.

MMA fighters need the UFC to make any real money. Anderson just happily renewed his contract with Zuffa. Trust me, Anderson and his team like Dana and the Fertittas, but if he could promote his own events and make more money, he would leave Zuffa in a heartbeat. And this isn't Zuffa's fault. Most casual sports fans just don't care that much about MMA. Most people still think of it as 2 sweaty dudes on the ground groping each other.

And I'm not going to get into what is "fair" and what fighters should or shouldn't make. Without knowing Zuffa's exact revenues, costs and expenses, it'd just be all speculation and conjecture.
6/10/13 11:58 PM
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TheKidAintMine
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Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14617
BTT-RyannVonDoom - 
hedfunk - The fact is if he was more exciting as a fighter and a person he would of been paid more. Let's not beat around the bush. Even on here a forum for mma diehards, 90% of people complained about his style. He was not exciting. Not even a bit. He was the poster boy for what alot of people dislike in the sport. Lay and praying. That's not a good thing.

In most businesses you get paid more if you make more money for the business. How much did Fitch really bring in?

He maybe should of got another shot at GSP based on his record but where is the upside with that for the UFC? Did fitch change his game at all after losing to GSP? No. He himself knew that his style put him on the endangered species list. Be didn't do anything to change that. Phone Post
You just stated that mma should be sports entertainment. Phone Post 3.0

All pro sports are sports entertainment.

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