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UnderGround Forums >> Jon Fitch responds to Dana White on fighter pay

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6/11/13 12:30 AM
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canuck34
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jimbonice - Out of the woodwork come the Dana dick lickers. Phone Post
So, if you understand supply and demand and business you are a Dana dick licker? Shut up commie. Phone Post
6/11/13 1:33 AM
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D241
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James Toney, in 1 UFC fight=

UFC 118 Fighter Salaries: James Toney Earns $500,000 in Debut Loss

 

 

"You don't understand supply and demand"

 

 

James Toney says

 

 

 

 

6/11/13 1:35 AM
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D241
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^^^You are forgetting UFC CAN pay more, they choose not to for the purposes of greed. Whether you justify it or not is up to you, but the UFC IS financially able to pay a considerable amount more to winning, proven fighters like Jon Fitch.

6/11/13 2:06 AM
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hendofanforlife
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D241 - 

^^^You are forgetting UFC CAN pay more, they choose not to for the purposes of greed. Whether you justify it or not is up to you, but the UFC IS financially able to pay a considerable amount more to winning, proven fighters like Jon Fitch.


So exactly how much should they have paid? What's the cutoff for acceptable?

What if they paid every top contender millions? Would they be profitable? How about the number 4 and 5 guys? Is it a sliding scale?

6/11/13 2:18 AM
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aarick161
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What he didn't mention is at that income level 50% or so goes to tax - federal, state and social security (12.4%). Add to that, that fighting, and most professional sports, aren't like regular jobs where you can work for 35 years. Most successful fighters are lucky to have 5-10 years of real earning power.

It's really the only reason I never considered a fighting career. My corporate salary may be slightly less than Fitch averaged at his peak, but 10 years from now when I'm fat and out of shape I'll still have the same earning potential.

UFC level fighters certainly should be getting paid more. They are the top of the top in the world in their sport. Fitch was one of the best, yet he was making less than the worst NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL players by a long shot. Since the UFC is profiting $100 million a year plus (just a guess based on what I've read) giving the fighters a little more cash shouldn't be an issue. Phone Post 3.0
6/11/13 2:21 AM
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Eatin Applesauce
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anyone who has to deal with media and fans should be payed as such imo
6/11/13 2:34 AM
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Mihow
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My 40 a year job having ass has no place in this discussion

However I do enjoy everyone telling everyone everyone else's business Phone Post 3.0
6/11/13 2:53 AM
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rockyboy
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Hope him all the best, fighting is tough business, only the champions see the real money
6/11/13 3:16 AM
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BertR
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hendofanforlife - 
D241 - 

^^^You are forgetting UFC CAN pay more, they choose not to for the purposes of greed. Whether you justify it or not is up to you, but the UFC IS financially able to pay a considerable amount more to winning, proven fighters like Jon Fitch.


So exactly how much should they have paid? What's the cutoff for acceptable?

What if they paid every top contender millions? Would they be profitable? How about the number 4 and 5 guys? Is it a sliding scale?


that's a political decision made by consensus in the negotiations between labour and ownership. Because Zuffa hides their finances labour needs to flex their organized muscle until they have an independent audit that they can agree is a fair calculation, and then from there negotiate a percentage that compensates them for their labour while balancing that with the needs of the business if there is conflict.
6/11/13 3:20 AM
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TheKidAintMine
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BertR - 
hendofanforlife - 
D241 - 

^^^You are forgetting UFC CAN pay more, they choose not to for the purposes of greed. Whether you justify it or not is up to you, but the UFC IS financially able to pay a considerable amount more to winning, proven fighters like Jon Fitch.


So exactly how much should they have paid? What's the cutoff for acceptable?

What if they paid every top contender millions? Would they be profitable? How about the number 4 and 5 guys? Is it a sliding scale?


that's a political decision made by consensus in the negotiations between labour and ownership. Because Zuffa hides their finances labour needs to flex their organized muscle until they have an independent audit that they can agree is a fair calculation, and then from there negotiate a percentage that compensates them for their labour while balancing that with the needs of the business if there is conflict.

Why haven't the fighters collectively "flexed their organized muscle" yet? It's not Zuffa's job to unionize, that's entirely up to the fighters.
6/11/13 3:43 AM
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hendofanforlife
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BertR - 
hendofanforlife - 
D241 - 

^^^You are forgetting UFC CAN pay more, they choose not to for the purposes of greed. Whether you justify it or not is up to you, but the UFC IS financially able to pay a considerable amount more to winning, proven fighters like Jon Fitch.


So exactly how much should they have paid? What's the cutoff for acceptable?

What if they paid every top contender millions? Would they be profitable? How about the number 4 and 5 guys? Is it a sliding scale?


that's a political decision made by consensus in the negotiations between labour and ownership. Because Zuffa hides their finances labour needs to flex their organized muscle until they have an independent audit that they can agree is a fair calculation, and then from there negotiate a percentage that compensates them for their labour while balancing that with the needs of the business if there is conflict.

So a contract?
6/11/13 3:50 AM
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BertR
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hendofanforlife - 
BertR - 
hendofanforlife - 
D241 - 

^^^You are forgetting UFC CAN pay more, they choose not to for the purposes of greed. Whether you justify it or not is up to you, but the UFC IS financially able to pay a considerable amount more to winning, proven fighters like Jon Fitch.


So exactly how much should they have paid? What's the cutoff for acceptable?

What if they paid every top contender millions? Would they be profitable? How about the number 4 and 5 guys? Is it a sliding scale?


that's a political decision made by consensus in the negotiations between labour and ownership. Because Zuffa hides their finances labour needs to flex their organized muscle until they have an independent audit that they can agree is a fair calculation, and then from there negotiate a percentage that compensates them for their labour while balancing that with the needs of the business if there is conflict.

So a contract?

yes, but one backed by the power of organized labour negotiating instead of individuals being divided and conquered.
6/11/13 4:56 AM
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Macedawgg
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bozy -  That's why they pay there managers isn't it. To get them the best deals. Phone Post

Yes, exactly.

http://www.fightersonlymag.com/content/news/11659-dos-santos-questions-need-for-managers-at-ufc-level

“In fact, the UFC is such an organized company that they themselves are [practically] our own managers.  Usually they already do anything they want in the US.  The manager doesn't have much of a say in UFC's decisions.... Of course they help here and there but it's very little."  --Junior Dos Santos

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Shogun-Rua-Talks-Changes-in-Management-Training-Camp-40139

"The UFC has made it clear that we don’t need a manager; all negotiations are conducted by the athletes themselves. A manager today is not like in the Pride days. At that time, they had much more weight."  Shogun Rua

Monte Cox, on ESPN’s Outside the Lines television program, stated “you don’t negotiate with the UFC.”  According to Cox, “either you can be in the UFC family or you cannot.”  Not taking what is offered puts you “outside the family."

http://www.mmajunkie.com/news/2013/01/rampage-says-ufc-bridge-burned-looking-forward-to-next-career-chapter

"UFC is a huge platform, and that's part of the problem.  When you have that big of a platform and you've got the market monopolized like that, you can say take it or leave it.": Quinton Jackson

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/3/Finding-Fedor-10538

"The contract that we were presented with by the UFC was simply impossible, couldn’t be signed -- I couldn't leave. If I won, I had to fight eight times in two years. If I lost one fight, then the UFC had the right to rip up the contract. At the conclusion of the contract, if I am undefeated, then it automatically extends for an as yet unspecified period of time, though for the same compensation. Basically I can’t leave undefeated. I can’t give interviews, appear in films or advertising. I don’t have the right to do anything without the UFC’s agreement. I could do nothing without the OK from the UFC. I didn’t have the right to compete in combat sambo competition. It’s my national sport. It’s the Russian sport, which in his time our president competed in, and I no longer have the right to do so. There were many such clauses; the contract was 18 pages in length. It was written in such a way that I had absolutely no rights while the UFC could at any moment, if something didn’t suit them, tear up the agreement. We worked with lawyers who told us that it was patently impossible to sign such a document."  --Fedor Emelianenko

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/1/10-Questions-for-Lorenzo-Fertitta-18516

"We offered the exact same contract that three hundred other guys have signed, including Brock Lesnar, Chuck Liddell, Anderson Silva, GSP, all the top stars. Why is that contract not good enough for Fedor?"  Lorenzo Fertitta

 

---Maybe not.

6/11/13 4:58 AM
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BertR
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bozy -  That's why they pay there managers isn't it. To get them the best deals. Phone Post

I agree, but i also think the fact they don't have a trustworthy account of Zuffa's financials or receive at least half of the estimated revenue speaks for itself in terms of the poor leverage their labour has currently. That won't come unless they band together to make the power of their collective labour capable of shutting down business if necessary.

It's an unfortunate reality but many people are unethical/unempathetic to other people's plight and only respect the nature of a threat of power being applied against them, so for workers to get a bigger slice of the pie they're producing they need to organize to apply that threat by being capable of shutting a business down if necessary.
6/11/13 5:09 AM
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BertR
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nice post Macedawgg. Goes to highlight the nature of how little leverage fighters have if they join the Zuffa Machine.
6/11/13 5:26 AM
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BertR
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bozy - 
BertR -
bozy -  That's why they pay there managers isn't it. To get them the best deals. Phone Post

I agree, but i also think the fact they don't have a trustworthy account of Zuffa's financials or receive at least half of the estimated revenue speaks for itself in terms of the poor leverage their labour has currently. That won't come unless they band together to make the power of their collective labour capable of shutting down business if necessary.

It's an unfortunate reality but many people are unethical/unempathetic to other people's plight and only respect the nature of a threat of power being applied against them, so for workers to get a bigger slice of the pie they're producing they need to organize to apply that threat by being capable of shutting a business down if necessary.
I hear ya. Im torn alittle. The company spends all the $$ making shit hapn. Setting up the events and television crap. I wish all fighters made more but I can't deal sorry for a man who is making broke Fitch money doing what he loves to do Phone Post

at the same time though they're spending that money so they can make money, and they're making money off of fitch even if he's not as popular as some of the other fighters just by filling out cards and being a top fighter to "legitimize" the competition aspect of the sport in order to sell to people that they're watching fair fights between the best talent in it, which is itself a popular selling point.

The goal of the guys unionizing isn't to kill the sport since they'd be killing their revenue stream too, it's just so they get a much larger share in the profits from the explosion in popularity and sales it's gone through which they helped create. That's the least they should have as a reward for destroying their bodies for our entertainment.
6/11/13 6:12 AM
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Matt Phillips
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I dont know if this has been mentioned but Zuffa has a whole office full of people that need to be paid as well.

6/11/13 6:24 AM
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Megatherium
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D241 - 


6/11/13 6:27 AM
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Macedawgg
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Matt Phillips - 

I dont know if this has been mentioned but Zuffa has a whole office full of people that need to be paid as well.


If all 500 employees were paid $800,000 per year, there would still be a hefty sum remaining at the end of the year for the owners.

This argument does not stand up to even minimal scrutiny.

6/11/13 6:29 AM
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Megatherium
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Edited: 06/11/13 6:48 AM
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MMA is the darnedest sport. Gotta be the only sport I know of where the 'fans' actually hate the players and and idolize some dickhead league president. I'm a hockey fan and I fuckin' hate NHL commissioner Gary Bettman. The idea of hockey fans fawning over that cocksucker is ridiculous. Everybody hates Bettman. And they love the players. It's the way pro sports is supposed to work.

Nobody buys tickets to watch some loudmouth fatass goofball count his money. Well I guess Vince McMahon is a pretty big star in WWF. But last I heard, that wasn't a real sport. And old Vince, I guess, isn't exactly a fatass.
6/11/13 6:40 AM
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Ramsey
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I have no sympathy for a person or persons who sign a contract with the understanding of what they will be making.

If there is a mirror in your home Fitch, the person looking back at you is the one you should call out and blame.


6/11/13 7:00 AM
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Slapsymaxi
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Didn't Fitch bankrupt Ryu fightwear? Phone Post 3.0
6/11/13 7:02 AM
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SmackyBear
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Macedawgg - 
Matt Phillips - 

I dont know if this has been mentioned but Zuffa has a whole office full of people that need to be paid as well.


If all 500 employees were paid $800,000 per year, there would still be a hefty sum remaining at the end of the year for the owners.

This argument does not stand up to even minimal scrutiny.


My math may be off, but that looks like $400,000,000 in staff salary.

I doubt there'd be any money left over at all at that rate. If there was still money left over after that, S&P should bump up their rating from BB.
6/11/13 7:10 AM
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CindyO
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Macedawgg - 
Matt Phillips - 

I dont know if this has been mentioned but Zuffa has a whole office full of people that need to be paid as well.


If all 500 employees were paid $800,000 per year, there would still be a hefty sum remaining at the end of the year for the owners.

This argument does not stand up to even minimal scrutiny.


*scratches head* Can you explain your math to me?

 

Cindy

6/11/13 7:24 AM
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Macedawgg
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CindyO - 
Macedawgg - 
Matt Phillips - 

I dont know if this has been mentioned but Zuffa has a whole office full of people that need to be paid as well.


If all 500 employees were paid $800,000 per year, there would still be a hefty sum remaining at the end of the year for the owners.

This argument does not stand up to even minimal scrutiny.


*scratches head* Can you explain your math to me?

 

Cindy


Sure thing!

Of course, the $800k per employee is a ridiculous sum--but that was the point.

Smacky Bear's math is correct, that would total $400 million. 

The UFC's annual revenues exceed $500 million, and may approach $600 million. 

"The UFC has become one of the world's most valuable sports franchises, with annual revenue approaching $600 million, according to one of its owners--and a worth, if you believe the smoke signals, of more than $2 billion."

http://www.fastcompany.com/3002947/ufc-tries-prove-its-capable-knockout

Total compensation to fighters is approximately $70 million. We also know that from 2005 through 2011, the UFC paid total compensation of approximately $250 million to the athletes.  Source?  Lorenzo Fertitta. 

So, with staff at $800k per employee, and $70 million to talent, that is $470 million. 

Of course, the staff compensation at 800k per head is ludicrous, and that was the whole point.  That argument is ludicrous.


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