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UnderGround Forums >> Burkman vs Fitch


6/15/13 3:11 PM
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rosario00
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I think Mazz sucks and is an idiot for standing there long after Josh let go, but Josh released the choke immediately upon Fitch going out.. Any sooner and everyone would've been crying about stopping the fight too soon Phone Post 3.0
6/15/13 3:16 PM
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pursuitofhappiness
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Anyone blaming Mazagatti is a fucking moron just looking for a reason to shit on him. Sure he's made shit calls but this isn't one of them. How many times has a guy been out and he looks at the ref and says "he's out" then the ref comes in. As SOON as Fitch went limp Burkman let go. No one in the world could have stopped that sooner. If that was Herb Dean would people be saying what a shit call that was and spazzing out on twitter. People are just looking for someone to shit on.
6/15/13 3:20 PM
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sparkuri
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dfw jr - Thank god Josh is class and stopped because that fucking idiot Mazzagatti had NO CLUE what was going on. Much respect Josh Phone Post
WTF are you talking about?
The difference was not even seconds.
And you call other fighters comments stupid.
Why don't you stfu about refs, corner coaching, and pretty much everything not pertaining to promotion.
Steve is fine.

+77 btw ass kissers, do your worst Phone Post
6/15/13 3:24 PM
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UGCTT_BlahBreh
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Well, Dana White as at least true to his words when he says he's a fight fan and watches fights if they are on.

He watched WSOF obviously haha
6/15/13 3:36 PM
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Kanabull
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But how many times have we seen Fitch in a choke that looks like a finisher and he was totally fine?

Maybe the ref was taking that into consideration. Josh let go pretty much right when he went limp.
6/15/13 3:58 PM
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Chris27
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caposa - 
Chris27 - 
caposa - I think it was a borderline call. You see Fitch's knee go down and then Burkman immediately releases him. When was Mazagatti supposed to step in, BEFORE Fitch was out?

Josh Burkman is just a pro, that's all that's to it. I don't think Mazagatti deserves the criticism for this one. Otherwise you better be prepared to criticize a lot of refs involved with walk-off KO's. Phone Post 3.0

But had he not let go when was Mazz gonna do something? Cause he was just standing there doing nothing even when Josh let go Mazz was like oh shit, he is out.

WHich means had Josh not let go Mazz probably lets him choke him out more for another 5 to who knows how many more seconds.

Soon as the guy gets put in the choke shouldnt the ref be right there in position to see a tap or him go out? He just stood in the corner like they were wrestling instead of a sub being applied.


How are we supposed to determine what Maz may have done?

Maybe you missed this angle, but he had a perfect view from the top. He was literally right on top of the action and was standing at most 12 inches away while leaning in.

I guess you could say he should have been on his hands and knees with his face right in there, but this sequence happened VERY quickly. Fitch went unconscious VERY quickly. I just feel like people are directing blame at the ref, when Burkman should get credit for being a professional and knowing the second his opponent was out.


That angle he comes in, leans and then BACKS AWAY.

He doesnt get down and really lean in to either see a tap or more importantly be in a position to check Fitch's arm to see if he is out. Yes it happened quickly but I think he wasnt in the position he should have been in.

Especially knowing Fitch was rocked and that choke was tight, it wasnt an arm in choke, it was fully locked in.

and I dont care who the ref it, Herb, John, Mazz, I'd say the ref wasnt in the position he needed to be in.

and another thing, Mazz doesnt even move an inch until Josh lets go, rolls over, gets up and poses. So when the hell was he gonna move in to stop the fight if Josh didnt let go?
6/15/13 4:01 PM
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TEN10TEN
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12 inches away? No way. He was hardly even bent over checking on him.

Look at how the ref is checking in on wandy trying to choke out Bisping
http://www.mmafight.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Wandy-Guillotine-Bisping-2.gif

He saw him lock up the choke when they were standing so he should have been ready to get down to check on Fitch immediately after it hit the mat.

I understand both sides. Just my opinion. Phone Post
6/15/13 4:07 PM
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caposa
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Chris27 - 
caposa - 
Chris27 - 
caposa - I think it was a borderline call. You see Fitch's knee go down and then Burkman immediately releases him. When was Mazagatti supposed to step in, BEFORE Fitch was out?

Josh Burkman is just a pro, that's all that's to it. I don't think Mazagatti deserves the criticism for this one. Otherwise you better be prepared to criticize a lot of refs involved with walk-off KO's. Phone Post 3.0

But had he not let go when was Mazz gonna do something? Cause he was just standing there doing nothing even when Josh let go Mazz was like oh shit, he is out.

WHich means had Josh not let go Mazz probably lets him choke him out more for another 5 to who knows how many more seconds.

Soon as the guy gets put in the choke shouldnt the ref be right there in position to see a tap or him go out? He just stood in the corner like they were wrestling instead of a sub being applied.


How are we supposed to determine what Maz may have done?

Maybe you missed this angle, but he had a perfect view from the top. He was literally right on top of the action and was standing at most 12 inches away while leaning in.

I guess you could say he should have been on his hands and knees with his face right in there, but this sequence happened VERY quickly. Fitch went unconscious VERY quickly. I just feel like people are directing blame at the ref, when Burkman should get credit for being a professional and knowing the second his opponent was out.


That angle he comes in, leans and then BACKS AWAY.

He doesnt get down and really lean in to either see a tap or more importantly be in a position to check Fitch's arm to see if he is out. Yes it happened quickly but I think he wasnt in the position he should have been in.

Especially knowing Fitch was rocked and that choke was tight, it wasnt an arm in choke, it was fully locked in.

and I dont care who the ref it, Herb, John, Mazz, I'd say the ref wasnt in the position he needed to be in.

and another thing, Mazz doesnt even move an inch until Josh lets go, rolls over, gets up and poses. So when the hell was he gonna move in to stop the fight if Josh didnt let go?

I'm not saying he was in perfect position, I'm saying that he had a clear view of the action. Which he did.

Maybe he should have been on his hands and knees like Yuji Shimada.

All of this doesn't even matter because there is no one in the arena who could have stopped the fight sooner than it already was. It's pointless to speculate whether he would have stopped it if Josh didn't let go. It makes no sense.

6/15/13 4:08 PM
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Chris27
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TEN10TEN -  12 inches away? No way. He was hardly even bent over checking on him.

Look at how the ref is checking in on wandy trying to choke out Bisping
http://www.mmafight.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Wandy-Guillotine-Bisping-2.gif

He saw him lock up the choke when they were standing so he should have been ready to get down to check on Fitch immediately after it hit the mat.

I understand both sides. Just my opinion. Phone Post

This. Thats a good call, he was right down on the ground looking in to see how tight it was, to see if he sees his face go out, a tap or in position to quickly stop it if he needed.

Thats what the ref should be doing, not standing around.
6/15/13 4:10 PM
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caposa
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TEN10TEN -  12 inches away? No way. He was hardly even bent over checking on him.

Look at how the ref is checking in on wandy trying to choke out Bisping
http://www.mmafight.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Wandy-Guillotine-Bisping-2.gif

He saw him lock up the choke when they were standing so he should have been ready to get down to check on Fitch immediately after it hit the mat.

I understand both sides. Just my opinion. Phone Post

how far away does he look in this picture?

 

this is 1 second before Burkman rolls him over

6/15/13 4:29 PM
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TEN10TEN
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" how far away does he look in this picture?" v

His feet look about a foot away. The parts of him that matter in order to assess the situation are about 5 feet since he's standing straight up. Phone Post
6/15/13 5:01 PM
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caposa
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TEN10TEN -  " how far away does he look in this picture?" v

His feet look about a foot away. The parts of him that matter in order to assess the situation are about 5 feet since he's standing straight up. Phone Post

Ok, so we can both agree that he is standing close. We also both agree that he was not in PERFECT position.  

Keep in mind that all of this happened within a matter of seconds. 

So even if Mazagatti walked over to the other side of the fighters, and then got down on his hands and knees like the ref in the gif you posted, Fitch would have been unconscious before he even got there. 

No one could have possibly stopped that fight any sooner than it was.

6/15/13 5:14 PM
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UGCTT_THE Kevin Chandler
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Edited: 06/15/13 5:16 PM
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caposa - 
TEN10TEN -  " how far away does he look in this picture?" v

His feet look about a foot away. The parts of him that matter in order to assess the situation are about 5 feet since he's standing straight up. Phone Post

Ok, so we can both agree that he is standing close. We also both agree that he was not in PERFECT position.  

Keep in mind that all of this happened within a matter of seconds. 

So even if Mazagatti walked over to the other side of the fighters, and then got down on his hands and knees like the ref in the gif you posted, Fitch would have been unconscious before he even got there. 

No one could have possibly stopped that fight any sooner than it was.

 

I'll throw my hat in the "don't love Maz, but this wasn't a bad call" ring.

 

 

Also agree with people that the majority are harping on Maz when we should be praising Burkman.....that was one of the nastiest finishes I've EVER seen.  Rocked him hard with a few solid punches, grabs then neck and pounces on the choke, chokes him out from bottom half-guard then releases and rolls him the fuck over and stands straight up like a BAWS as SOON as he puts him out.....easily one of the best finishes I've ever seen.

6/15/13 5:17 PM
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lurkingveteran
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Kerouac -
lurkingveteran - 
lurkingveteran - People are getting distracted by the fact Mazagatti couldnt of stopped it faster than the 1.5 seconds it took before Burkman lets go, THIS IS NOT THE POINT!

Assume Burkman like 95pc of fighters doesnt let go until the ref stops it. Mazzagatti is not even considering the possibility that Fitch could be in trouble let alone out when he is in fact UNCONSCIOUS.

Then we have potentially the time to get down on the ground to check how bad it is and if the choke is tight...then actually check if Fitch is attempting to defend ..then if Fitch is limp..then actually touch Fitch to confirm ..and them pull Burkmam off. This could take one second to do but it MAY take another 5-10 seconds, it is POSSIBLE.

So because the ref was not positioned and prepared close to the submission it could of been 6-11 seconds of time with no blood to the brain which MAY of caused serious damage.

IN MMA we need to reduce the probability of a serious injury occuring, its not about certainty its about reducing the possibility of injury and Mazzagatti CLEARLY did not do this.

It is not complicated, the refereeing here was fcking scandalous! Phone Post 3.0
And lets look at maths, assume 90 percent of fighters would be fine for being out that amount if time and lets assume 90 percent of thr time Mazzagatti would of got down to stop it rapidly even though not close to the action.

Fine right...

No cos that means thats 1/10 chance x 1/10 chance which means its only 1/100 chance that someone could be fatally or seriously injured in that situation. That would be end of that persons life and the end of MMA.

We dont gamble with odds like that upto 10000-1 on things as serious as that if they can be AVOIDED! Phone Post 3.0

More like 1 million seconds...

lol @ 6 to 11 seconds.

What the fuck are you guys on?

Fitch got caught with a hard punch, Josh pounced on him, there was a scramble...oh jesus christ, just watch the fight in real time again and tell me how Mazz could have suddenly jumped on the other side of them.

Again, he was definitely laid back after Josh let go of the guillotine, but even if he was on the right side, he wouldn't have been able to react faster than Josh let go of it.
Thats exactly the point..ur talking about Maz couldnt of stopped it faster than Burkman let go...no one is debating that!!!

The danger is in what if Burkman waited for the ref as usual and Mazzagatti's obvious lack of position and urgency led to a totally unnecessary delay in the release of the choke and opened up even the slight but increased possibility of a serious injury for the fighter.

This is totally wrong and UNNECESSARY Phone Post 3.0
6/15/13 5:22 PM
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TEN10TEN
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caposa -
TEN10TEN -  " how far away does he look in this picture?" v

His feet look about a foot away. The parts of him that matter in order to assess the situation are about 5 feet since he's standing straight up. Phone Post

Ok, so we can both agree that he is standing close. We also both agree that he was not in PERFECT position.  

Keep in mind that all of this happened within a matter of seconds. 

So even if Mazagatti walked over to the other side of the fighters, and then got down on his hands and knees like the ref in the gif you posted, Fitch would have been unconscious before he even got there. 

No one could have possibly stopped that fight any sooner than it was.

First off we're assessing Maz's actions which means we are operating under the premise that Josh doesn't let go. Otherwise of course no one can stop it sooner. The guillotine was put on Fitch before going to the ground so he should have been right on top of that but he was making zero movement to get in any position to guage the situation. Not even bending over. That's my issue. Phone Post
6/15/13 5:26 PM
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Kerouac
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what ifs...pathetic, the lot of you.
6/15/13 5:33 PM
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Kings21
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sparkuri - 
dfw jr - Thank god Josh is class and stopped because that fucking idiot Mazzagatti had NO CLUE what was going on. Much respect Josh Phone Post
WTF are you talking about?
The difference was not even seconds.
And you call other fighters comments stupid.
Why don't you stfu about refs, corner coaching, and pretty much everything not pertaining to promotion.
Steve is fine.

+77 btw ass kissers, do your worst Phone Post

+77? You mean green arrows? I dont see any now. Funny how that works.

Also, most disagree with a lot of what Dana says but its no fucking secret that that if someone dies at the higher levels of MMA its going to be because Mazzagatti just stands there until the dude is dead. The guy sucks.


Also, if Dana didnt ever bitch about reffing he'd be taking shit for that too. If he didnt bitch about corner coaching and everything else, he'd be taking shit for that too. Its fun to hate on Dana but a lot of it is unwarranted.

The guy finally says something everyone else is saying and you want to call everyone else ass kissers. Funny how that works.
6/15/13 6:12 PM
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Neil McCauley
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atleast maz doesnt do a lot of bullshit standups like herb dean, big john, dan mirg, kim winslow, mario yamasaki etc. do
6/15/13 6:24 PM
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ruazombie66
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Do you think the Mazz, Kim Winslow, and Blood Bath Miragliotta Have a cash pool together to see who can cause the first death in pro MMA.
6/15/13 7:45 PM
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Kid_dynamite319
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dfw jr -  Thank god Josh is class and stopped because that fucking idiot Mazzagatti had NO CLUE what was going on. Much respect Josh Phone Post

exaggerate much?
6/16/13 4:31 AM
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UGK4Life
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Josh was pure class. I hope he gets another chance in the UFC. Submitting JF is no easy task.
6/16/13 4:46 AM
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WrestlingSucks
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the fact dana would comment on a fitch loss much less create a thread to highlite it, speaks volumes. Bad reffing has nothing to do with this thread
6/16/13 4:50 AM
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MT11
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Makes no sense to cut Fitch from the UFC. He can beat half the 170lb division. Phone Post 3.0
6/16/13 8:08 AM
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Enemies
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Looks like Fitch was only out for about a second. But Burkman felt him go limp and realized he won.

I'm not a fan of Mazzagatti but I don't think that was the most egregious thing I've seen in a long time.
6/16/13 8:14 AM
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TartanTopTeamsBukkakeBeyatch
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the geek - Mazzagatti's still waiting for the fight to end.

Lots of good post, but geek gets the lol for real.  

Still waiting.....


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