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6/18/13 2:38 PM
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Tilla
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Keith Hackney
Vs
Steve Jennum

Hackney wins via TKO after a short war.

Pat Smith
Vs
Gerard Gourdeau

I can't even call this. This would be a violent fight. A very violent fight.

Right bracket:
Kimo Leopaldo
Vs
Remco Parduel

Kimo via strikes.

Harold Howard
Vs
Guy Mezger (making UFC debut w/ long hair)

Wow! Mesger stops HH.

Alternate fight:
Jason DeLucia
Vs
Orlando Weit

Weit KO's Jason.
6/18/13 2:39 PM
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Tilla
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I can't call any fight after that as they're real pick 'ems!
6/18/13 3:36 PM
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CharlesLewis
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As far as using Ken's failure to denegrate Mezger's chances... I think Ken would've absolutely swept the OP's field without too much trouble. He had exactly ONE problem in UFC 1 and it was Royce, who would've subbed Mezger too. In the OPs imaginary UFC I think Mezger wins, and Ken could have too.

6/18/13 6:56 PM
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CLINTK9
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CharlesLewis - 

As far as using Ken's failure to denegrate Mezger's chances... I think Ken would've absolutely swept the OP's field without too much trouble. He had exactly ONE problem in UFC 1 and it was Royce, who would've subbed Mezger too. In the OPs imaginary UFC I think Mezger wins, and Ken could have too.


Ken also ended up in no shape to fight a final fight at ufc3 and that against with lesser comp than this field. But I also base my opinion on seeing mezger fight at that time as well and followed this sport as hardcore as anyone since, and matching these guys in my head over and over for years back then. HW's Kimo, Remco, Smith would have been too much for the the DEBUTING young Mezger. Smith wouldve been on his 3rd ufc by now. I also believe Hackney & Jennum and maybe Howard would've beat THAT EARLY Mezger. but thats just my opinion.
6/18/13 7:42 PM
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MrColdCock
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I originally wasn't going to put Mezger in. I didn't think he was as impressive in his fight vs Fairn as Jennum, Hackney, Smith were right off the bat.

I originally had Weit vs Howard, but didn't like the Weit vs Remco possible semifinal.

I had Mezger vs DeLucia as the alternate fight, but the more I thought about it, the better I liked Mezger's chances. I do think people are overrating him in this tournament though. Phone Post
6/18/13 7:53 PM
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Funaki Masakatsu #1
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CLINTK9 -
CharlesLewis - 

As far as using Ken's failure to denegrate Mezger's chances... I think Ken would've absolutely swept the OP's field without too much trouble. He had exactly ONE problem in UFC 1 and it was Royce, who would've subbed Mezger too. In the OPs imaginary UFC I think Mezger wins, and Ken could have too.


Ken also ended up in no shape to fight a final fight at ufc3 and that against with lesser comp than this field. But I also base my opinion on seeing mezger fight at that time as well and followed this sport as hardcore as anyone since, and matching these guys in my head over and over for years back then. HW's Kimo, Remco, Smith would have been too much for the the DEBUTING young Mezger. Smith wouldve been on his 3rd ufc by now. I also believe Hackney & Jennum and maybe Howard would've beat THAT EARLY Mezger. but thats just my opinion.
Only because Ken entered UFC 3 injured. Ken said his knee was locking up about a week before the tournament, had a shot to help it before his first fight but it wore off during the Mitchell fight. Phone Post 3.0
6/18/13 8:07 PM
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CharlesLewis
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Ken fought dumb fights, I've always blamed his quick loss to Royce... if he had fought the way he did in Pancrase he could've easily subbed some of the Lenningers and Mitchells he broke knuckles on. 

6/18/13 9:10 PM
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CLINTK9
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you guys dont have to defend Ken to me. I know his knee was bothering prior to ufc3 and I also think he could have fought smarter for sure, but those tourney's were tough to get through. but we cant make ecuses, I know for a fact Hackney's hand was still fucked up at ufc4 from ufc3, would that have made a difference who knows. name of the game.
6/18/13 9:29 PM
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MuchRespec'
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I went with Mezger because ultimately he was the best fighter of that bunch. IMO he surpassed Ken eventually (as did Frank).

Was Guy the best at the time of your hypothetical though? Maybe not.

But I ride or die with Guy on this one. Phone Post 3.0
6/18/13 9:33 PM
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Kostakio
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rockwell - I got Metzger beating Smith in the finals. Phone Post 3.0
This. Phone Post 3.0
6/18/13 9:46 PM
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jcblass
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MrColdCock -  Hypothetical UFC 4 tournament. All fighters are returning vets:

Left bracket:
Keith Hackney
Vs
Steve Jennum

Pat Smith
Vs
Gerard Gourdeau

Right bracket:
Kimo Leopaldo
Vs
Remco Parduel

Harold Howard
Vs
Guy Mezger (making UFC debut w/ long hair)


Alternate fight:
Jason DeLucia
Vs
Orlando Weit

Who wins it? Phone Post

Jennum was never really a "fighter." He had some ok skills, but when push came to shove he gave up. He gave up against Tank via his head being pushed into the fence, and went on to lose within a few seconds anytime he fought in Japan.

Hackney wins

Pat Smith vs. Gerard Gourdeau - Smith looked really good in UFC 6. That was when he kicked that guy in the chest. He was a little bit more well rounded than Gourdeau who was too slow and had zero ground knowledge.

Smith wins

Kimo vs. Remco - Good match up. If this is the Kimo that studied jujitsu it could be interesting. But Remco is a big boy, has great ground control and has shown he could take out an elite striker (Weit). One of Kimo's most impressive showings was against 180 pound Royce. He will have none of those advantages against a Giant like Remco.

Remco wins

Harold Howard vs. Mezger - Easy win for Mezgar. Howard lost to Mark Hall, in what amounted to a grappling match. He would have no shot at beating Mezger, who I might add went on to win a 4 man tournament and defeated Tito Ortiz.

Mezger wins

---

Smith vs. Hackney - Smith is overall more experienced. Has fought in Japan and isn't a total novice on the mat. He eeks this one out in a tough match.

Smith Wins

Remco vs. Mezger - Mezger is able to rough up the big man, and eventually punish him into a stoppage.

Mezger wins

Finals

Smith vs. Mezger - Guy take this probably by submisson. He is better conditioned and pretty experienced via his time in pancrase.

Mezger is the winner.
6/18/13 9:50 PM
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CharlesLewis
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Edited: 06/18/13 9:50 PM
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Smith gets too much love for his can smashing... he never won a fight he didn't dominate in the first 30 seconds. He is the worst front runner in MMA. 

lol@"He eeks this one out in a tough match." go find that hard won Pat Smith victory. I will wait.

Go watch his k1 fights, even his karate matches. The guy either mugged you off the opening bell, or he folded like a deck chair as soon as the slightest resistance was offered. Total bully. Gordeau would've probably crippled him worse than he did Nakai (and I am NOT a fan of Gordeau).

6/18/13 10:17 PM
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Jack Skellington
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4ltr
6/18/13 10:21 PM
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Funaki Masakatsu #1
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MuchRespec' - I went with Mezger because ultimately he was the best fighter of that bunch. IMO he surpassed Ken eventually (as did Frank).

Was Guy the best at the time of your hypothetical though? Maybe not.

But I ride or die with Guy on this one. Phone Post 3.0
As great as Guy Mezger was, I don't think Mezger at his peak was better than Ken at his peak. Mezger passed Ken around 2000 in terms of skill because Ken started breaking down and lost his athleticism. Phone Post 3.0
6/18/13 10:28 PM
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CLINTK9
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Funaki Masakatsu #1 - 
MuchRespec' - I went with Mezger because ultimately he was the best fighter of that bunch. IMO he surpassed Ken eventually (as did Frank).

Was Guy the best at the time of your hypothetical though? Maybe not.

But I ride or die with Guy on this one. Phone Post 3.0
As great as Guy Mezger was, I don't think Mezger at his peak was better than Ken at his peak. Mezger passed Ken around 2000 in terms of skill because Ken started breaking down and lost his athleticism. Phone Post 3.0

and dont forget, this is the ufc4 Mezger that fought Jason Fairn, NOT the Mezger of when he won the 4-man tourney a few years later. This Mezger is not winning this tourney. I love guy as well, but I thibnk alot are thinking of What Mezger became, not rookie Mezger of ufc4. I'm thinking along the lines of who everyone was up to that point.
6/18/13 10:31 PM
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CLINTK9
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CharlesLewis - 

Smith gets too much love for his can smashing... he never won a fight he didn't dominate in the first 30 seconds. He is the worst front runner in MMA. 

lol@"He eeks this one out in a tough match." go find that hard won Pat Smith victory. I will wait.

Go watch his k1 fights, even his karate matches. The guy either mugged you off the opening bell, or he folded like a deck chair as soon as the slightest resistance was offered. Total bully. Gordeau would've probably crippled him worse than he did Nakai (and I am NOT a fan of Gordeau).


I agree, but this feild is along the same lines of comp as Smith himself, so I think he does well in this tourney until Kimo or Remco. Gordeau had no ground skill like the guys that beat Smith early on, and it would have been a stand up fight and Smith was no puss there, he had better wins and crendentils than Gordeau in that dept even. bully, yes, but he would have been tough for some of these guys. theres no Royce, Ken or Ruas in this one.
6/18/13 10:38 PM
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CLINTK9
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Funaki Masakatsu #1 - 
MuchRespec' - I went with Mezger because ultimately he was the best fighter of that bunch. IMO he surpassed Ken eventually (as did Frank).

Was Guy the best at the time of your hypothetical though? Maybe not.

But I ride or die with Guy on this one. Phone Post 3.0
As great as Guy Mezger was, I don't think Mezger at his peak was better than Ken at his peak. Mezger passed Ken around 2000 in terms of skill because Ken started breaking down and lost his athleticism. Phone Post 3.0

doing 2000 frankensteiners and all the other shit he did in wrestling took a toll on his body for sure.
6/18/13 10:41 PM
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Funaki Masakatsu #1
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CLINTK9 -
Funaki Masakatsu #1 - 
MuchRespec' - I went with Mezger because ultimately he was the best fighter of that bunch. IMO he surpassed Ken eventually (as did Frank).

Was Guy the best at the time of your hypothetical though? Maybe not.

But I ride or die with Guy on this one. Phone Post 3.0
As great as Guy Mezger was, I don't think Mezger at his peak was better than Ken at his peak. Mezger passed Ken around 2000 in terms of skill because Ken started breaking down and lost his athleticism. Phone Post 3.0

doing 2000 frankensteiners and all the other shit he did in wrestling took a toll on his body for sure.
Yup, the WWF strangely both ruined and launched his career to new heights. It ruined his skill with the bumps, injuries, drugs and partying but popularized him in the mainstream. Phone Post 3.0
6/18/13 11:26 PM
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CharlesLewis
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CLINTK9 - 
CharlesLewis - 

Smith gets too much love for his can smashing... he never won a fight he didn't dominate in the first 30 seconds. He is the worst front runner in MMA. 

lol@"He eeks this one out in a tough match." go find that hard won Pat Smith victory. I will wait.

Go watch his k1 fights, even his karate matches. The guy either mugged you off the opening bell, or he folded like a deck chair as soon as the slightest resistance was offered. Total bully. Gordeau would've probably crippled him worse than he did Nakai (and I am NOT a fan of Gordeau).


I agree, but this feild is along the same lines of comp as Smith himself, so I think he does well in this tourney until Kimo or Remco. Gordeau had no ground skill like the guys that beat Smith early on, and it would have been a stand up fight and Smith was no puss there, he had better wins and crendentils than Gordeau in that dept even. bully, yes, but he would have been tough for some of these guys. theres no Royce, Ken or Ruas in this one.

We will agree to disagree then. Pat did the same thing in K1 and kickboxing as MMA: ran at you with wild attacks  and either bowled you over or IMMEDIATELY covered up and looked for a way out. His K1 record shows what I mean... he caught Hug early and won, then went on to lose every fight after that.

 

The Gordeau that beat Rozier and Tuli eats Pat's lunch all day, every day. 

6/18/13 11:27 PM
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CharlesLewis
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And actually, Smith's stand up credentials are NOT better than Gordeaus, if you actually look at their records/fights. 

 

  • 9th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (Budo Kaikan)
  • 7th dan Sei Budo Kai
  • 4th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (NKA)
  • 2nd dan Full-Contact Karate (USA)
  • Highest degree Savate (Boxe Francaise)
  • 4th dan Oyama Karate
  • Eight time Dutch Champion Kyokushin Karate
  • Competed at the World Championships Kyokushin Karate (1979, 1983, 1987)
  • Savate World Heavyweight Champion (1991)
  • Three time Savate European Heavyweight Champion
6/19/13 12:01 AM
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CLINTK9
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CharlesLewis - 
CLINTK9 - 
CharlesLewis - 

Smith gets too much love for his can smashing... he never won a fight he didn't dominate in the first 30 seconds. He is the worst front runner in MMA. 

lol@"He eeks this one out in a tough match." go find that hard won Pat Smith victory. I will wait.

Go watch his k1 fights, even his karate matches. The guy either mugged you off the opening bell, or he folded like a deck chair as soon as the slightest resistance was offered. Total bully. Gordeau would've probably crippled him worse than he did Nakai (and I am NOT a fan of Gordeau).


I agree, but this feild is along the same lines of comp as Smith himself, so I think he does well in this tourney until Kimo or Remco. Gordeau had no ground skill like the guys that beat Smith early on, and it would have been a stand up fight and Smith was no puss there, he had better wins and crendentils than Gordeau in that dept even. bully, yes, but he would have been tough for some of these guys. theres no Royce, Ken or Ruas in this one.

We will agree to disagree then. Pat did the same thing in K1 and kickboxing as MMA: ran at you with wild attacks  and either bowled you over or IMMEDIATELY covered up and looked for a way out. His K1 record shows what I mean... he caught Hug early and won, then went on to lose every fight after that.

 

The Gordeau that beat Rozier and Tuli eats Pat's lunch all day, every day. 


We will have to disagree then. Smith would have had a bit more ufc experience by ufc4 and I feel he beats Gordeau.

6/19/13 12:02 AM
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D241
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buddie - I think Pat Smith would destroy Gordeau honestly.

Although I picked Smith in this match up, of all the match ups, this was the one I thought about and was unsure of the most.

6/19/13 12:05 AM
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CLINTK9
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CharlesLewis - 

And actually, Smith's stand up credentials are NOT better than Gordeaus, if you actually look at their records/fights. 

 

  • 9th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (Budo Kaikan)
  • 7th dan Sei Budo Kai
  • 4th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (NKA)
  • 2nd dan Full-Contact Karate (USA)
  • Highest degree Savate (Boxe Francaise)
  • 4th dan Oyama Karate
  • Eight time Dutch Champion Kyokushin Karate
  • Competed at the World Championships Kyokushin Karate (1979, 1983, 1987)
  • Savate World Heavyweight Champion (1991)
  • Three time Savate European Heavyweight Champion

I'm not gonna look up all Pat's stuff, but I was mainly talking fighting credentials, not belts or dan's. but after looking the list you made, I say they are about even in the comp department. Smith did puss out after going gets tough, but we didnt get to see Gerard fight much tough comp to know where he stands vs guys like Ken & Kimo.
6/19/13 12:07 AM
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CLINTK9
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D241 - 
buddie - I think Pat Smith would destroy Gordeau honestly.

Although I picked Smith in this match up, of all the match ups, this was the one I thought about and was unsure of the most.


yea i never say so and so eats a guy up for sure garaunteed unless we are talking Fedor vs Matt Serra or something. None of these fights are for sure wins and we have all been surprised before. these guys are all competitive fights for eachother. tough guys, not the cream of the crop, but just under that level of the early days.
6/19/13 12:45 AM
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D241
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One of the reasons I picked my winners the way I did, was I was imagining the fighters in their prime.

 

Gerard Gardoue had a solid career and was a tough dude, but Pat Smith on his best day, I think beats Gordoue on his best day.


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