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HolyGround >> Did the Jewish people kill Jesus?


6/21/13 7:44 PM
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770mdm
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The historic charge “Christ Killers” leveled against Jews is one of the most bizarre indictments ever made. Its defiance of facts and logic would be comical if it weren’t for the horrific slaughter of untold numbers of Jews over the centuries based on that accusation. Bizarre and illogical because statements and narratives in the New Testament itself contradict that claim. Trumping all accusations is the Christian doctrine that the crucifixion was dictated by prophesy— God commanded the crucifixion as part of a divine plan.

That a naked king can be seen fully dressed in regal attire (“The Emperor’s New Clothes”) is testimony to the power of belief to distort perception. So it shouldn’t be surprising that Jews, who comprised the totality of Jesus’ devotees and followers, could be transformed collectively through selective perception into demonic enemies of Jesus. The fact that there would be no Christianity if not for the “multitudes” of Jews who embraced Jesus and his teachings did little, if anything, to mitigate the indictment throughout history. And despite the divided opinions among scholars and theologians about who was to blame for Jesus’ death, only Jews have been persecuted for the crime.

Blaming Jews collectively for Jesus’ crucifixion has several powerful roots. Let’s look at the back story.

The Sanhedrin, the ruling body of Judaism, wants to eliminate Jesus. He’s been relentlessly criticizing the Jewish leadership for emphasizing rules and rituals at the expense of the spiritual core of the Torah. More bothersome, this rabbi from Galilee is gaining popularity. “Multitudes” from Jewish communities– “from Syria and beyond Jordan”–seek Jesus’ teachings and healings (Matthew 4:24-25). But the Sanhedrin faces a dilemma: Where and when to arrest Jesus? They decide against capturing him at one of his frequent gatherings, where he would be easy to find. They reject this option for fear that his loving devotees would riot if the authorities dared to threaten Jesus (Mark 14:2 ; Matthew 26:4). Jews protecting and defending Jesus? And the Jews killed Jesus?

So the Sanhedrin doesn’t take that obvious course for locating Jesus. Instead they decide to capture him at a small gathering he will be attending with his disciples. And they pay Judas Iscariot, one of Jesus’ leading disciples, thirty pieces of silver to tell them where he will be on the eve of Passover and to identify Jesus with a kiss. Is it possible that no one in the arresting party, which included Jewish temple guards, Jewish priests, and Jewish elders, would be able to identify Jesus–their most wanted man (Luke 22:52; Matthew 26:47; Mark 14:43)?

The arresting party finds Jesus in Gethsemane Garden, where Judas told them he would be after their “Last Supper.” Jesus is taken into custody, is tried, and then crucified. But how in this scenario, even if Judas Iscariot was a turncoat, did Jews collectively become the villains? If this doesn’t make any sense neither does the rest of the story. In the first century, Christianity and Judaism began to slowly part ways. Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, tried desperately to make his brand of Jewish Christianity the new Judaism. He failed to accomplish that in his meetings in Jerusalem with Jesus’ disciples, who continued their dedication to Judaism while embracing Jesus as the prophesied Jewish messiah. After Paul’s death the movement that he started became increasing dominated by Roman Gentile converts. The Gospel writers therefore favored blaming the Jews rather than the Romans for Jesus’ death–especially since Roman legions suffered severe casualties in the brutal Jewish rebellion against Rome that resulted in the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in 70 CE.

Much to the ire of the developing Christian Church, the Jewish Christian populace and other converts didn’t fully grasp that Christianity was a new and separate religion. Many Jewish Christians continued to identify with Judaism. Even as late as the fourth century, after the council of Nicaea established a unified Catholic Church, Christians attended synagogues in great numbers. Why else would St. John of Chrysostom, a leading fourth-century figure in the Church, address many of his vicious “Homilies Against the Jews” to Christians who celebrated Jewish holidays and prayed in synagogues? From then on the Church stepped up its vilification of Judaism to finally sever its ties. What better way to impose an insurmountable obstacle between the two religions than the charge “Christ Killers”?

6/21/13 7:47 PM
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770mdm
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Contributing further to the divide, the Church kept the Bible out of the hands of commoners by discouraging (some say forbidding) them to own or read the Bible on their own–a church policy that persisted for a thousand years until the Protestant Reformation. During those years translating of the Bible into native languages was punishable by burning at the stake. That was the fate of William Tyndale, who dared translate the New Testament into English in 1536 CE. Thus, the populace only knew the selected and preferred stories they were told at Church services. And the omissions washed out Judaism. Imagine yourself as a devoted Christian during the Middle Ages. You attend Mass on Holy Friday (Good Friday) commemorating Jesus’ suffering and his crucifixion. You are told that the Jews killed Jesus—and then you watch a passion play that dramatizes the suffering of Jesus and blames the Jews. Following that, you might hear a story or poem about the “blood libel”–fabricated accounts of Jews killing Christian children and extracting their blood for Passover matzoh and other rituals. Here’s a translation of a popular thirteenth-century Flemish poem, cited by Jeremy Cohen in his book Christ Killers:

And when they had stripped off his clothes,
The dirty Jews, the stinking dogs,
They inflicted many wounds on him
With daggers and knives
And then, still in the same place, caused
All of the blood to flow from his body
And collected this blood in a vessel.
They did this
Because with this blood, I know,
They wished to celebrate their sacrament;
For it was their custom, and this is no lie,
To obtain a Christian child every year
young, healthy, and rosy,
This child they put to death
In order to have his blood.

Is it surprising that fired-up Christians would emerge from Good Friday services and sermons seeking violence against Jews?

I’ve wondered how the populace would have reacted had other passages of the Gospels been emphasized. What if they had learned that the term “Jew” appears 202 times in the New Testament and that 82 of those mentions are in the Gospels? What if they discovered that the word “Christian” never appears in the Gospels at all? What would the response have been if churchgoers had heard that when Jesus, who was called rabbi by his followers, was not teaching Torah to multitudes of fellow Jews he was praying and teaching in synagogues? What if they had learned that the term “synagogue” appears 44 times in the Gospels? Would they have been shocked to discover that Jesus and his family attended Jewish religious services in the Temple in Jerusalem every year, as prescribed in the Torah? And if Jesus had rejected Judaism, as many were taught and believed, how would they comprehend Jesus telling the Canaanite woman, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel” (Matthew 15:24)? Or his instruction to his disciples not to take his teachings to the Gentiles but only to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:5)?

But those “what ifs” never happened. And the anti-Semitic teachings drove Jews to shun Jesus and Christianity, thereby imposing an ever widening distance between the two religions. I was recently reminded of that legacy, which reverberates to this day. In response to an article I wrote about the Christian Jewish divide, a Jewish reader sent me a disturbing anecdote from his childhood in a suburban community near a large American city:

“We lived in a small house next to a Catholic family that had two kids my age with whom I played until this incident. These kids started school at a Catholic school and when they came back     they said they could no longer play with me because I had killed their God, Jesus. I had never      heard of Jesus, so I asked my father who Jesus was. He said Jesus was a thief in the temple and he      was chased out. This account soured me on religion and I have been a disbeliever ever since.” Today, in a new climate of reconciliation, both Christians and Jews need to understand how their distorted views have been conditioned by destructive forces that sought separation and opposition. Now we must resurrect the common ground to further mutual respect and understanding between the two faiths.

Bernard Starr is a psychologist, college professor, and journalist. He is author of Jesus Uncensored: Restoring the Authentic Jew, which is available at Amazon (grayscale and color edition), Barnes and Noble, and other major outlets.

Copied & Pasted from the Algemeiner website from the article "Christ Killers"  A new book that Bill O'reilly is coming out with but I took that part out because I'd like to highlight the content rather than the writer.  You can read and view the article below.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/06/21/christ-killers-the-hidden-agenda/

 

6/27/13 8:52 AM
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zealot66
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Yes the Jews used the Romans to kill Jesus. Or rather the Jewish Hierarchy at that time in Jerusalem conspired to kill Jesus. The Romans were just tools. It does not represent all jews of that time nor even now. But those are the facts.

7/10/13 5:58 PM
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zealot66
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Thats a good call. I have studied Josephus and wrote my thesis on the Jewish rebellionn of 66AD, hence my screen name Zealot66. I was heavily involved in the study of it when I chose my screen name.

7/11/13 2:50 AM
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bigsakimoto
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Edited: 07/11/13 2:57 AM
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Jesus(God) predicts his own death in several passages and uses it as a means of salvation to mankind. It was all part of his will/plan. But we also know from the bible that Jesus's(God's) death was an illusion as he lived on after his physical body gave way. If anything God killed God. Judas, Romans and Jews acted in ways that led to mankinds sins being forgiven, were they angels masquerading as demons?
7/23/13 9:13 PM
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Grendelplata
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Zealot have you checked out Chaucer's "The Prioress's Tale"? Phone Post 3.0
7/23/13 9:16 PM
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Grendelplata
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^ There's actually a whole slew of Middle English literature that is largely ignored in academia because it fits into this exact category. Fascinating stuff, though Phone Post 3.0
9/10/13 9:08 AM
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Kung Fu Joe
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36 VS 14 - Yes,They did.

that's a Fact.
No, they didn't, and no, it's not.

Even by the Biblical accounts, it was the Romans who killed Jesus. As Christianity separated from Judaism, it became increasingly hostile towards its parent religion. With the passage of decades, successive revisions of the crucifixion story attempted to shift greater and greater amounts of blame off of the Romans and onto the Jews. Phone Post
9/10/13 9:32 PM
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770mdm
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Dude you seemed pretty brainwashed.  Do you know anything about Judaism?  Do you know any Jews who are commited to Judaism or know anything about it? 

9/11/13 8:39 AM
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Kung Fu Joe
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36 VS 14 -
Kung Fu Joe - 
36 VS 14 - Yes,They did.

that's a Fact.
No, they didn't, and no, it's not.

Even by the Biblical accounts, it was the Romans who killed Jesus. As Christianity separated from Judaism, it became increasingly hostile towards its parent religion. With the passage of decades, successive revisions of the crucifixion story attempted to shift greater and greater amounts of blame off of the Romans and onto the Jews. Phone Post

You're wrong.

The jews DID kill JESUS. Period.

they wanted him dead because well,let's just say that JESUS DESTROYED jewish laws and UNMASKED their demonic ways.

36 VS 14

Now you are not only wrong, but you're revealing yourself to be woefully ignorant of your own savior's story, as well.

Jesus was arrested by the Jewish Sanhedrin, but he was executed by the Roman state. The Sanhedrin accused him of blasphemy, but the Romans executed him for sedition against Rome.

Jesus never exposed the Jews as being "demonic." That would have been fairly nonsensical since Jesus, himself, was Jewish. Nor did he destroy Jewish law. According to your own gospel accounts, Jesus said that the Law would remain unchanged until the end of the world.

It's pretty ironic that an atheist would have to tell you this, but perhaps you should read your Bible, sometime. You might just learn something. Phone Post
9/11/13 10:32 AM
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Kung Fu Joe
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36 VS 14 - "Now you are not only wrong, but you're revealing yourself to be woefully ignorant of your own savior's story, as well."

I Do Know more than anybody about My GOD JESUS CHRIST.


"Jesus was arrested by the Jewish Sanhedrin, but he was executed by the Roman state. The Sanhedrin accused him of blasphemy, but the Romans executed him for sedition against Rome."

JESUS was arrested by the jewish sanhedrin because He literally destroyed jewish laws,exposing them as hypocrites,liars,and false.

and FYI the Romans DID NOT execute Him "for sedition", Pontious Pilatus washed his hands since he found Him NOT GUILTY of anything. Period.

the jews asked Pontius Pilatus to free Barabbas, a well known murderer and thief in exchange to CRUCIFY AND KILL JESUS. Period.


"Jesus never exposed the Jews as being "demonic." That would have been fairly nonsensical since Jesus, himself, was Jewish. Nor did he destroy Jewish law. According to your own gospel accounts, Jesus said that the Law would remain unchanged until the end of the world."



He surely DO.

you must need to read the Holy Bible to learn it.


Now JESUS CHRIST was NOT a jew.

JESUS Born inside a jewish family since He was made a Mortal Man himself.

He was the SON OF GOD, GOD HIMSELF AND with THE HOLY SPIRIT ,THE HOLY TRINITY. Period.



and one last thing: JESUS DID BREAK the ANCIENT LAWS and MADE EVERYTHING NEW. Period.


36 VS 14





Only Matthew describes Pilate as "washing his hands" of the situation, a fairly clear embellishment of the story which he was copying from Mark. In all the gospels, Pilate's charge against Jesus has nothing to do with blasphemy. He asks, "Are you the King of the Jews?" That's very clearly an accusation of sedition. Then, when Jesus is crucified, the plaque over his head reads "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" in three different languages. His execution was quite obviously meant as a deterrent against other seditionists.

As for Jesus Barabbas, he is never described as a "well known murderer and thief." Matthew only calls him a "notorious prisoner." Mark says that he was imprisoned "with the rebels who had committed murder during the insurrection." Luke says that Barabbas was an insurrectionist and a murderer. John only says that Barabbas was a rebel.

By the way, how curious is it that the two prisoners offered for release at Passover were both named Jesus, and both charged with insurrection? Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus Barabbas (which, incidentally, means Jesus Son of the Father).


And, once again, Jesus was clearly a Jew. His parents were Jews. He was circumcised and consecrated in the Jewish temple. He was educated by Jews. His disciples were Jews. He preached to Jews. He quoted Jewish Scriptures and followed Jewish laws. He was arrested by the Sanhedrin for Jewish blasphemy-- which they could not have done to a Gentile. He was charged by Pilate for leading a Jewish insurrection.

Claiming Jesus was not a Jew is like trying to claim the Earth is flat. Sure, you can go around saying it, but it just makes you look like an idiot. Phone Post
9/11/13 12:25 PM
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Kung Fu Joe
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36 VS 14 -
So just because you have read a few pages of the Holy Bible the same way a nerd reads a comic book,then all of a sudden you have some knowledge to share?

I could give you a long speech and teach you a lesson right here,right now about all the fuck ups that you are making but...

to be honest I rather talk to a rock,it will certainly learn faster and better than you.

after all, who are you?

nah, you're just an atheist neophyte that happens to be a charlatan disguised in a worthless demented Idiot's babble.

I'll go ahead and answer the only relevant question in that post.

I am a former fundamentalist Christian with training in apologetics, Biblical hermeneutics, and New Testament Greek who is fairly familiar with modern scholarship on the historical Jesus.

Who are you? Phone Post
9/11/13 3:46 PM
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Kung Fu Joe
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36 VS 14 - "I'll go ahead and answer the only relevant question in that post.

I am a former fundamentalist Christian with training in apologetics, Biblical hermeneutics, and New Testament Greek who is fairly familiar with modern scholarship on the historical Jesus.

Who are you?"


Well,Since you are a "former"... (insert anything here_) =you already lost all credibility... however:

Even if you would say that you are damn moses in person, I wouldn't give a damn since the overwhelmingly stupidity in your answers tells Me everything I needed to know about you.


certainly this is NOT the place to throw pearls to the pigs,and I for sure won't throw any more pearls to you, since I already threw a few to you.


Hint: while you are all talk (lets say that what you claim is true), I'm all Real,I have Seen,Have Been and have Done.Period.


JOE



Despite your declaration of the thread's end, now you've got me curious.

Which of my answers did you feel was stupid? Why did you think this? What is your differing opinion on the subject? What evidence do you give in support of your opinion?

At this point, I'm really butting up against Poe's Law: I'm having trouble determining whether you actually believe what you are saying, or if you are just trolling. Phone Post
9/13/13 5:07 PM
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Kung Fu Joe
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Heel Hooker - No Jews were a conquered people. They couldn't give someone a ticket much less judge and execute them. They were used a a facade by the Romans. Phone Post 3.0
Not entirely correct. The Jewish authorities were granted a number of judicial powers by the Roman overseers. However, the death penalty was explicitly off limits to them. Phone Post
9/13/13 5:53 PM
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Ridgeback
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Yes, God was killed by his chosen people.

9/14/13 10:27 PM
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770mdm
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This is a 'conversational thread' not a 'make a statement and leave it at that thread'

9/15/13 3:42 AM
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Ridgeback
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770mdm - 

This is a 'conversational thread' not a 'make a statement and leave it at that thread'


Well that is no fun.  I think I summed it up nicely.  Yes they killled him but yes they were his chosen people too.  So any gentile grafted unto the vine has zero right to persecute them or in any way hold them to blame for his death.  The anti-semitism of history tied to Jesus is so far from the spirit of "forgive them Father for they know not what they do" that we can safely say it is of the devil. 

If we believe the gospel accounts, then yes the Jewish authorities used the power of the Roman state to put Jesus to death.  But Christians are supposed to believe that Jesus willingly died, not that he was caught unawares.  And Jesus was Jewish and his disciples and apostles were almost all Jewish.  This is not a "Jewish people" thing.  When an Orthodox priest was imprisoned by Nazis for helping Jews with baptismal certificates and hiding them the Nazi's told him he must never help another Jew again.  He lifted the cross around his neck and said "here is a Jew" and was cuffed on the head violently for it.  That is the right attitude for Christians to affect, but we don't need to pretend that some of the Jewish religious authorities of the day did not have a primary hand in his execution. 

9/15/13 8:45 PM
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770mdm
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Not sure if you read the article at the top or the conversations that followed but it's now starting to loop.  What are you saying that really hasn't been discussed yet? 

9/16/13 9:26 AM
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Kung Fu Joe
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Ridgeback -
770mdm - 

This is a 'conversational thread' not a 'make a statement and leave it at that thread'


Well that is no fun.  I think I summed it up nicely.  Yes they killled him but yes they were his chosen people too.  So any gentile grafted unto the vine has zero right to persecute them or in any way hold them to blame for his death.  The anti-semitism of history tied to Jesus is so far from the spirit of "forgive them Father for they know not what they do" that we can safely say it is of the devil. 

If we believe the gospel accounts, then yes the Jewish authorities used the power of the Roman state to put Jesus to death.  But Christians are supposed to believe that Jesus willingly died, not that he was caught unawares.  And Jesus was Jewish and his disciples and apostles were almost all Jewish.  This is not a "Jewish people" thing.  When an Orthodox priest was imprisoned by Nazis for helping Jews with baptismal certificates and hiding them the Nazi's told him he must never help another Jew again.  He lifted the cross around his neck and said "here is a Jew" and was cuffed on the head violently for it.  That is the right attitude for Christians to affect, but we don't need to pretend that some of the Jewish religious authorities of the day did not have a primary hand in his execution. 

An analogy.

Let's say I am a member of the Neighborhood Watch, walking down the street. Suddenly, I hear two gunshots. Running around the corner, I see a man holding a pistol standing over a bloody body.

Let's say that I manage to tackle and disarm the person with the gun. I make a Citizen's Arrest, call the police, and detain the suspect until they arrive.

The police take the man into custody. He is tried, found guilty, and sentenced to death. Some time later, the man is executed for his crime.

Did I kill that man? Phone Post
9/18/13 3:36 AM
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Ridgeback
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Kung Fu Joe - 
Ridgeback -
770mdm - 

This is a 'conversational thread' not a 'make a statement and leave it at that thread'


Well that is no fun.  I think I summed it up nicely.  Yes they killled him but yes they were his chosen people too.  So any gentile grafted unto the vine has zero right to persecute them or in any way hold them to blame for his death.  The anti-semitism of history tied to Jesus is so far from the spirit of "forgive them Father for they know not what they do" that we can safely say it is of the devil. 

If we believe the gospel accounts, then yes the Jewish authorities used the power of the Roman state to put Jesus to death.  But Christians are supposed to believe that Jesus willingly died, not that he was caught unawares.  And Jesus was Jewish and his disciples and apostles were almost all Jewish.  This is not a "Jewish people" thing.  When an Orthodox priest was imprisoned by Nazis for helping Jews with baptismal certificates and hiding them the Nazi's told him he must never help another Jew again.  He lifted the cross around his neck and said "here is a Jew" and was cuffed on the head violently for it.  That is the right attitude for Christians to affect, but we don't need to pretend that some of the Jewish religious authorities of the day did not have a primary hand in his execution. 

An analogy.

Let's say I am a member of the Neighborhood Watch, walking down the street. Suddenly, I hear two gunshots. Running around the corner, I see a man holding a pistol standing over a bloody body.

Let's say that I manage to tackle and disarm the person with the gun. I make a Citizen's Arrest, call the police, and detain the suspect until they arrive.

The police take the man into custody. He is tried, found guilty, and sentenced to death. Some time later, the man is executed for his crime.

Did I kill that man? Phone Post

A better analogy would be you hate your neighbor.  When you come running around the corner nobody is there but you lie to the police and tell them you saw the neighbor running from the scene of the crime.  Then you and your friends call for his conviction and the prosecutor feels pressure to go after him even though the evidence is extremely weak that he did anything.  Your neighbor is sentenced to death just like you planned.  And yes you did kill that man.

9/18/13 8:44 AM
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Kung Fu Joe
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Ridgeback -
Kung Fu Joe - 
Ridgeback -
770mdm - 

This is a 'conversational thread' not a 'make a statement and leave it at that thread'


Well that is no fun.  I think I summed it up nicely.  Yes they killled him but yes they were his chosen people too.  So any gentile grafted unto the vine has zero right to persecute them or in any way hold them to blame for his death.  The anti-semitism of history tied to Jesus is so far from the spirit of "forgive them Father for they know not what they do" that we can safely say it is of the devil. 

If we believe the gospel accounts, then yes the Jewish authorities used the power of the Roman state to put Jesus to death.  But Christians are supposed to believe that Jesus willingly died, not that he was caught unawares.  And Jesus was Jewish and his disciples and apostles were almost all Jewish.  This is not a "Jewish people" thing.  When an Orthodox priest was imprisoned by Nazis for helping Jews with baptismal certificates and hiding them the Nazi's told him he must never help another Jew again.  He lifted the cross around his neck and said "here is a Jew" and was cuffed on the head violently for it.  That is the right attitude for Christians to affect, but we don't need to pretend that some of the Jewish religious authorities of the day did not have a primary hand in his execution. 

An analogy.

Let's say I am a member of the Neighborhood Watch, walking down the street. Suddenly, I hear two gunshots. Running around the corner, I see a man holding a pistol standing over a bloody body.

Let's say that I manage to tackle and disarm the person with the gun. I make a Citizen's Arrest, call the police, and detain the suspect until they arrive.

The police take the man into custody. He is tried, found guilty, and sentenced to death. Some time later, the man is executed for his crime.

Did I kill that man? Phone Post

A better analogy would be you hate your neighbor.  When you come running around the corner nobody is there but you lie to the police and tell them you saw the neighbor running from the scene of the crime.  Then you and your friends call for his conviction and the prosecutor feels pressure to go after him even though the evidence is extremely weak that he did anything.  Your neighbor is sentenced to death just like you planned.  And yes you did kill that man.

How is that a better analogy? That's by far a worse analogy.

Jesus was executed by Rome for claiming to be the King of the Jews. Do you NOT believe that Jesus or his followers claimed he was King of the Jews?

The Sanhedrin arrested Jesus for blasphemy. Do you think they didn't honestly believe Jesus was blaspheming?

The Sanhedrin did not directly witness Jesus' crimes, just as the witness in my analogy did not see the crime, directly. However, they did see Jesus' students proclaiming things which were considered blasphemous, just as my witness turned the corner to see someone holding a gun.

I'll even grant you most of the rest of your analogy. Even if I had a dislike for my neighbor, to begin with, and even if I picketed his trial to campaign for the death penalty, that does not mean that I didn't honestly believe he had committed the crime. Nor does it mean that I lied about anything. Nor does it alter the fact that I still did not kill the man. He was still tried, convicted, and executed by the state.

The Jewish Sanhedrin was responsible for Jesus' initial arrest, not for his execution.


Furthermore, it is just as ridiculous to claim "the Jews killed Jesus" as it is to claim "the Jews created Christianity." You cannot generalize to an entire socio-ethnic class of people based on the actions of a very few. Even if I granted your claim that the Sanhedrin was responsible for Jesus' execution, it does not follow that the Jews, as a people, are responsible; just as, in my analogy, if the witness happened to be black, you would not say, "the blacks are responsible for that man's execution!" Phone Post
10/16/13 4:41 PM
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770mdm
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Ah, so the Jews were in league with the Roman Occupiers of their land who had continuously discraced their temple and practices, corrupted their king and legal body with Roman proxies & slaughterd their people at any hint of an uprising - Makes total sense now, I get it!

10/17/13 6:27 AM
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Kung Fu Joe
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fishyfish - or is it:

"The Romans and the Sanhedrin hated Jesus and wanted him dead. the Romans killed him.

but hating Jesus and killing him was not a sin, as it was all God's plan. they were only (unwittingly) doing God's work. no foul, no sin, no guilt."

so if I want to hate those Romans for killing Jesus, I should instead hate them for the tons of other horrible stuff they did, but not for that ? ok, I guess I can accept that.

I'm sorry for being less informed, or stupid.

Still not quite right. It was more like:

"The Sanhedrin legitimately believed that Jesus was blaspheming, and had heard some of his followers claim that he was King of the Jews. The Romans were largely unaware of anything Jesus did.

"So the Sanhedrin arrested Jesus for blasphemy-- which was within their power-- but turned him over to the Roman officials for his crime of sedition, since it was not within their power to try him for that. The Romans found Jesus guilty and executed him."


As for the "hate" bit, if you're a Christian, I'm fairly sure you are not supposed to "hate" anyone. Of course, theologies can disagree-- just ask Westboro Baptist.
10/20/13 11:43 AM
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Kung Fu Joe
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fishyfish - my philosophy on hate is "hate the sin, not the sinner", but if the sinner is unrepentant, and inseparable from his sin, then just like cancer, he can go to hell too.

I consider the Catholic "Church" an example of unrepentant sinner, deserving of everlasting hell. not its poor sheep.

if anyone should be judged guilty of crimes against Jesus and humanity, it's the catholic Church.
So, your philosophy is, "hate the sin, not the sinner-- unless the sinner has not yet repented; then it's totally cool to hate the sinner?"

Also, you think cancer goes to Hell? Phone Post
10/20/13 2:21 PM
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770mdm
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Papp,;@@//@/@@/ Phone Post 3.0

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