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UnderGround Forums >> How a beard effects the chin


6/22/13 10:09 PM
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ShowtimeWreckedMyLeever
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crackers - I always figured it gave a false sense of where the chin actually begins for the opponent with alot of thicker beards. Can't hit what you can't see. Phone Post
My thoughts exactly Phone Post 3.0
6/22/13 10:26 PM
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Jake95
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waiting for abandon thread gif.
6/22/13 11:23 PM
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Michael Chase
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Still will vote you up, op, when I get to a computer. We need more people sharing weird ideas and thoughtful discussions around here.

Lol @ "sit the fuck down guy" who contributes fuck-all to the actual conversation. Phone Post
6/23/13 12:04 AM
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themmaexpert
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A Forrest Griffin punch is like -.5 m/s , plenty of warning.
6/23/13 12:14 AM
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rbl
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Quality thread. I'll grow a huge fluffy beard just in case. Phone Post 3.0
6/23/13 12:30 AM
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PUBLICnoose
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arlofski has a beard and no chin Phone Post
6/23/13 12:36 AM
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Stevius
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I don't know about striking but I've been been choked while i have a beard Phone Post 3.0
6/23/13 12:38 AM
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TheHebrewHammer
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Quality thread, will VU the op and the science guy that replied Phone Post
6/23/13 12:45 AM
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Colboyo
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dakotajudo - 
Ziga - I've seen many discussions and comments about how a beard improved a fighters chin. These are my thoughts on it based on what I know.
The first thing to disregard is the cushion comment, saying that a nice bushy beard cushions the blow. A beard has very little resistance so it cushions little to nothing, especially taking the recent study of headgear (which resulted in eliminating headgear in olympic boxing)into consideration.
But it obviously does offer improvement and in my opinion because it functions like whiskers. Many animals, both on land and in water use whiskers to sense their soraundings, before it comes in contact with the face/snout.
So If a fighter has a beard that reaches 3-5 cm from his face/chin, this gives him the advantage, of sensing the strikes he didn't see, 3-5cm before they make contact with the face (as opposed to a fighter with no beard, who only senses the strike he couldn't see, when it makes contact with the face), thus giving him the said distance to roll with them, not absorbing them full force. And fighting is a game of inches, as they say.

There are two key flaws to your theory.

FIrst, animal whiskers are not the same as facial hair. Technically, these are specialized sensory organs called vibrissae; stiffer than most hair fibers, more highly ennervated (making them more sensitive) and commonly with some degree of independent muscle control - they can be used like a blind man uses a cane.

Second, if we allow that there is a indeed 3-5 cm buffer, that allows a fighter to sense a strike, we need to consider that this translates to, for a strike with a reasonable velocity of 6 m/s (Olympic boxers throw at +/- 9 m/s - http://bjsportmed.com/content/39/10/710.full ) provides an advance warning of 0.8 milliseconds.

Reaction times to tactile stimuli are on the order of 100 ms (http://www.jneurosci.org/content/26/42/10879.full).

Binocular processing (that is, seeing the punch coming) provides a lot more warning time; predicting from body motions even more. In other words, experience >> beard.


good post
6/23/13 12:46 AM
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inf0
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do you even beard bro

 

6/23/13 12:48 AM
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Colboyo
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themmaexpert - A Forrest Griffin punch is like -.5 m/s , plenty of warning.

Anderson binocular processed Griffins punches like a superhero
6/23/13 1:14 AM
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G-Hands
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Michael Chase -  Still will vote you up, op, when I get to a computer. We need more people sharing weird ideas and thoughtful discussions around here.

Lol @ "sit the fuck down guy" who contributes fuck-all to the actual conversation. Phone Post

This.

Also props to the scientific/biological refute. Good discussion folks.
6/23/13 4:46 AM
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Buckle
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Loads have discussed this IMO.... It helps. Phone Post 3.0
6/23/13 5:08 AM
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GaryColeman
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No but seriously where do you get your weed? Phone Post 3.0
6/23/13 6:37 AM
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jay_diaz
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horsemeat grew my head - Where do you buy your weed? Phone Post
Classic reply Phone Post
6/23/13 6:57 AM
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Chucklesmf
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VTFU. MMA Whiskers. Phone Post 3.0
6/23/13 8:01 AM
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TheLumberjackLisi
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Prior to my first fight in Columbus, Ohio I was told by Rob "The Bullrider" Wince that beards allow strikes to stick. He then proceeded to slap me 3 times flush on my face 30 seconds before I walked out.

I was never able to test the theory in all my fights, as I've always had a beard for them, but I did KO my opponent that night who was clean shaven. Phone Post 3.0
6/23/13 8:29 AM
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Ziga
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Good reply dakotajudo.
But the tactical reaction time is not what's at play here. These reactions fall under flinching, which are the fastest reactions humans are capable of. Things like closing the eyes when you jump in the water, putting hands infront of the face before impact( which is why most wounds are on hands and arms, in accidents etc.), pulling the head away etc. It falls under flinching, please look up the exact timing, but its the fastest we are capable of because it bypasses the thoughts and goes straight to the cortex.
And since all I claimed was that it improves the ability to roll (half an inch means a mile with ko punches), I still stand by my statement.
6/23/13 8:33 AM
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LyotoBundy
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I use my beard to sense head kicks only Phone Post
6/23/13 11:24 AM
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MMArijuana
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Lol at this theory. It's garbage, this the vote downs. Phone Post
6/23/13 11:38 AM
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SKARHEAD
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I like this thread.



It's like tactile proprioception through the beard. Neat idea. Wonder if it would make any difference, especially to a highly trained and talented keyed up fighter in the zone. Would a Kimbo beard make Floyd Mayweather Jr. even better ?
6/23/13 11:41 AM
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SKARHEAD
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Michael Chase -  Still will vote you up, op, when I get to a computer. We need more people sharing weird ideas and thoughtful discussions around here.

Lol @ "sit the fuck down guy" who contributes fuck-all to the actual conversation. Phone Post

Seriously. What a turd.



Lot's of lame faggots on this thread. No need to VD the OP for bringing an interesting idea to the table even if you disagree. VU for the OP to help balance out all the faggots that came on here.
6/23/13 12:08 PM
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Sprawl 68
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Yeah I think it has a negligible effect but its interesting insight. Phone Post 3.0
6/23/13 12:45 PM
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Augustus Caesar
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Andre Arolvski Phone Post
6/23/13 1:22 PM
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dakotajudo
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Ziga - Good reply dakotajudo.
But the tactical reaction time is not what's at play here. These reactions fall under flinching, which are the fastest reactions humans are capable of. Things like closing the eyes when you jump in the water, putting hands infront of the face before impact( which is why most wounds are on hands and arms, in accidents etc.), pulling the head away etc. It falls under flinching, please look up the exact timing, but its the fastest we are capable of because it bypasses the thoughts and goes straight to the cortex.
And since all I claimed was that it improves the ability to roll (half an inch means a mile with ko punches), I still stand by my statement.

It is exactly the "tactile" reaction time that you impy in your OP. Tactile, as in touch, no tactical.

Flinches, more commonly referred to in the literature as startle, are of the faster somatic reflex responses, but still on the order of 100ms; that leeway was implied in my response. 

That is, somatic responses using larger muscle groups have response times around 200-300 ms, while the fastest I can find (vestibulomasseteric - see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2343496/) has about a 10ms latency - that is, the time from stimulus to a first measurable electrophysiological signal in the muscle. Assume an additional 10-20 ms delay until peak muscle contraction. 

All told, still well shy of the 1 ms advance warning given by a beard.

Your problem is that you have failed to prove your original premise - that there is "beard effect". You might want to prove that, first, before attempting a physiological explanation.

There may indeed be a beard effect, but I doubt it's physiological. Much more likely to be psychological. Never discount the placebo effect in athletic performance. If a beard makes you feel tougher, you probably will be tougher. There may also be a perceived dominance effect. That is, your beard makes you appear more "manly" to your opponent, thus affecting his performance. See, for example, the "red shirt" effect, http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640410701744446#.Uccr1Ba-3ww and http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640410701736244#.UccrTRa-3ww

 

Finally, what you describe as flinching - closing your eyes and raising your arms - are reflexive, but conditioned and directed -and are not the fastest responses; not as fast as simple reflex arcs involving a couple neurons (i.e. pulling the head away). However, you are wrong to say "bypasses all thoughts and goes straight to the cortex". The cerebral cortex is were conscious processes (thoughts) occur, so by definition reflex responses don't go to the cortex. However, that does not mean the reflex responses are not processed, in varying degrees, by the CNS. See http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301008298000987

 


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