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UnderGround Forums >> How a beard effects the chin


6/23/13 1:39 PM
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Colboyo
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Beards give advance warnings of mustache rides
6/23/13 1:46 PM
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Ziga
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Edited: 06/23/13 6:21 PM
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Dakotajudo, all i said was, that if you have a beard, you sense the strike sooner. Which is correct. I never said that it makes a big difference, as in a fighter with no chin gets one.
Strike is sensed sooner. I agree that experience > beard. You just wanted to show your knowledge, which you've got, but nothing in my posts contradicts your statements. I hope you understand that.

And obviously tactical - tactile was a typo.
6/23/13 3:03 PM
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jimbonice
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It makes women far less attractive. Phone Post
6/23/13 6:55 PM
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BullyKiller
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horsemeat grew my head - Where do you buy your weed? Phone Post
VOTE UP!!! Phone Post 3.0
6/23/13 7:19 PM
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ThickS0lid N Right
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horsemeat grew my head - Where do you buy your weed? Phone Post
From you donte... Oh hey mr cheezle Phone Post 3.0
6/23/13 7:25 PM
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horsemeat grew my head
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ThickS0lid N Right -
horsemeat grew my head - Where do you buy your weed? Phone Post
From you donte... Oh hey mr cheezle Phone Post 3.0
Yes, VU when I get to a computer Phone Post
6/23/13 8:04 PM
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ManWithTheIronFists
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Didn't help Roy Nelson avoid punches.
6/24/13 7:31 AM
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Darth_Vladar
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There is no better precedent than the case of Chuck Norris, and his beard. Phone Post 3.0
6/24/13 9:36 AM
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snobordr
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dakotajudo - 
Ziga - I've seen many discussions and comments about how a beard improved a fighters chin. These are my thoughts on it based on what I know.
The first thing to disregard is the cushion comment, saying that a nice bushy beard cushions the blow. A beard has very little resistance so it cushions little to nothing, especially taking the recent study of headgear (which resulted in eliminating headgear in olympic boxing)into consideration.
But it obviously does offer improvement and in my opinion because it functions like whiskers. Many animals, both on land and in water use whiskers to sense their soraundings, before it comes in contact with the face/snout.
So If a fighter has a beard that reaches 3-5 cm from his face/chin, this gives him the advantage, of sensing the strikes he didn't see, 3-5cm before they make contact with the face (as opposed to a fighter with no beard, who only senses the strike he couldn't see, when it makes contact with the face), thus giving him the said distance to roll with them, not absorbing them full force. And fighting is a game of inches, as they say.

There are two key flaws to your theory.

FIrst, animal whiskers are not the same as facial hair. Technically, these are specialized sensory organs called vibrissae; stiffer than most hair fibers, more highly ennervated (making them more sensitive) and commonly with some degree of independent muscle control - they can be used like a blind man uses a cane.

Second, if we allow that there is a indeed 3-5 cm buffer, that allows a fighter to sense a strike, we need to consider that this translates to, for a strike with a reasonable velocity of 6 m/s (Olympic boxers throw at +/- 9 m/s - http://bjsportmed.com/content/39/10/710.full ) provides an advance warning of 0.8 milliseconds.

Reaction times to tactile stimuli are on the order of 100 ms (http://www.jneurosci.org/content/26/42/10879.full).

Binocular processing (that is, seeing the punch coming) provides a lot more warning time; predicting from body motions even more. In other words, experience >> beard.


VU, nicely done.

6/24/13 9:48 AM
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snobordr
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Ziga - Dakotajudo, all i said was, that if you have a beard, you sense the strike sooner. Which is correct. I never said that it makes a big difference, as in a fighter with no chin gets one.
Strike is sensed sooner. I agree that experience > beard. You just wanted to show your knowledge, which you've got, but nothing in my posts contradicts your statements. I hope you understand that.

And obviously tactical - tactile was a typo.

Well, actually you said:

"obviously offers improvement because it functions like whiskers"

"giving him said distance to roll with them"

and then claimed that flinching was fast enough to have an effect.

 

All things that Dakota refuted scientifically.  His posts completely contradict your statements.  Beard = useless, except maybe for the psychological effects, and it was Dakota who brought those up.

 

No hate for posing an unorthodox question, but you have to learn when you're beat.

6/24/13 9:51 AM
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SJax
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Edited: 06/24/13 9:52 AM
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Not going to argue for/against your points but will say anecdotally that my cousin who started going bald shaved his head and then claimed he started hitting his head on things frequently because he didn't have hair to warn him of impending inanimate object attack. So Op might have a minuscule point.
6/24/13 9:53 AM
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dakotajudo
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Ziga - Dakotajudo, all i said was, that if you have a beard, you sense the strike sooner. Which is correct. I never said that it makes a big difference, as in a fighter with no chin gets one.
Strike is sensed sooner. I agree that experience > beard. You just wanted to show your knowledge, which you've got, but nothing in my posts contradicts your statements. I hope you understand that.

And obviously tactical - tactile was a typo.

Don't be condenscending, Ziga. You starting this thread to show your knowledge, but you were intellectually lazy and did not do the appropriate literature review to determine if your theory had merit. I took the time to provide examples of the references you should have used in the first place, and you don't understand that, I've wasted my time.

Apparently you didn't bother to read them, if you don't think anything in your posts is contradicted by those references. That's a little bit insulting.

6/24/13 9:57 AM
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dakotajudo
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snobordr - 
Ziga - Dakotajudo, all i said was, that if you have a beard, you sense the strike sooner. Which is correct. I never said that it makes a big difference, as in a fighter with no chin gets one.
Strike is sensed sooner. I agree that experience > beard. You just wanted to show your knowledge, which you've got, but nothing in my posts contradicts your statements. I hope you understand that.

And obviously tactical - tactile was a typo.

Well, actually you said:

"obviously offers improvement because it functions like whiskers"

"giving him said distance to roll with them"

and then claimed that flinching was fast enough to have an effect.

 

All things that Dakota refuted scientifically.  His posts completely contradict your statements.  Beard = useless, except maybe for the psychological effects, and it was Dakota who brought those up.

 

No hate for posing an unorthodox question, but you have to learn when you're beat.


Oops, didn't see that. Thanks, snobordr.

Sorry, Ziga, don't mean to gang up on you. 

6/24/13 11:25 AM
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Another Foob
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Good post. VU.

I've often wondered about this, as anecdotally, it seems guys with beards do have better chins (Big Country, Court McGee). Like someone else commented, I suspected it had to do with obscuring the actual chin, and I still think that's a factor.

But, the "whisker" theory is interesting. dakotajudo offered some helpful mathematics, but he assumed cushion of 3-5cm. I think we're considering beards that are at least 10cm, but that wouldn't alter the result of his calculations.
6/24/13 11:40 AM
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Bootsy Collins
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As the owner of a lustrous beard and dismal fight record I can say this theory holds no water
6/24/13 11:42 AM
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Ziga
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I wasn't trying to be condesending, I apprechiate your input, I did read them. I only started the thread because I noticed the difference, as many people do, like the post above about the shaved head. But i see your math.
6/24/13 11:47 AM
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Arlovskis Chin
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Ziga -
horsemeat grew my head - 
Ziga -
horsemeat grew my head -  Where do you buy your weed? Phone Post

Same place you buy your witts. I don't.
Are you implying if someone touches your beard/hair but not the actual skin, you don't feel it? Think before you post.
Are you implying that there is anyone alive fast enough to feel a strike on their beard and then slip a punch? Phone Post

You obviously never fought. You don't need to slip a punch, difference between a ko strike and a non ko strike can be less than an inch.
Fully aware of this but you seriously cannot claim once a punch has hit your beard, displaced your beard, had the nerves tell the brain this then tell your head to move and your head to respond and move an inch in the time it takes a punch to move 5cm if we're being very generous with the beard? Phone Post 3.0
6/24/13 11:51 AM
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Ziga
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Edited: 06/24/13 11:52 AM
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Dakotajudo:
My point was, that because of the beard, the strike is sensed sooner. Which is correct. But I see now, due to your math, that it this 3-5cm is not enough "sooner" for it to be effective (which I previously thought it was).
Just to clear things up, due to my other post. Thanks for your timely input.
6/24/13 12:09 PM
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saemskin
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Edited: 06/24/13 12:10 PM
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when I was five, I remember getting subbed by an older fella with a days worth of stubble. sub by tickle pain..

beards - 0
5 o'clock shadow - 1

beard didn't help Roy against JDS or Miocic.
6/24/13 12:12 PM
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saemskin
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the whisker theory may work in cats, but no human is fast enough to decode what to do when a strike is already 95% completed. not even anderson.
6/24/13 12:33 PM
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canofsticks
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Interesting hypothesis. Now be a clever scientist and go collect some data. Return with results.
6/24/13 2:36 PM
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Jambo888
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dakotajudo - 
Ziga - Good reply dakotajudo.
But the tactical reaction time is not what's at play here. These reactions fall under flinching, which are the fastest reactions humans are capable of. Things like closing the eyes when you jump in the water, putting hands infront of the face before impact( which is why most wounds are on hands and arms, in accidents etc.), pulling the head away etc. It falls under flinching, please look up the exact timing, but its the fastest we are capable of because it bypasses the thoughts and goes straight to the cortex.
And since all I claimed was that it improves the ability to roll (half an inch means a mile with ko punches), I still stand by my statement.

It is exactly the "tactile" reaction time that you impy in your OP. Tactile, as in touch, no tactical.

Flinches, more commonly referred to in the literature as startle, are of the faster somatic reflex responses, but still on the order of 100ms; that leeway was implied in my response. 

That is, somatic responses using larger muscle groups have response times around 200-300 ms, while the fastest I can find (vestibulomasseteric - see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2343496/) has about a 10ms latency - that is, the time from stimulus to a first measurable electrophysiological signal in the muscle. Assume an additional 10-20 ms delay until peak muscle contraction. 

All told, still well shy of the 1 ms advance warning given by a beard.

Your problem is that you have failed to prove your original premise - that there is "beard effect". You might want to prove that, first, before attempting a physiological explanation.

There may indeed be a beard effect, but I doubt it's physiological. Much more likely to be psychological. Never discount the placebo effect in athletic performance. If a beard makes you feel tougher, you probably will be tougher. There may also be a perceived dominance effect. That is, your beard makes you appear more "manly" to your opponent, thus affecting his performance. See, for example, the "red shirt" effect, http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640410701744446#.Uccr1Ba-3ww and http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640410701736244#.UccrTRa-3ww

 

Finally, what you describe as flinching - closing your eyes and raising your arms - are reflexive, but conditioned and directed -and are not the fastest responses; not as fast as simple reflex arcs involving a couple neurons (i.e. pulling the head away). However, you are wrong to say "bypasses all thoughts and goes straight to the cortex". The cerebral cortex is were conscious processes (thoughts) occur, so by definition reflex responses don't go to the cortex. However, that does not mean the reflex responses are not processed, in varying degrees, by the CNS. See http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301008298000987

 


interesting analysis. what's your background smarty pants

6/24/13 2:53 PM
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MattyECB
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RileyPust - 
Ziga - 
horsemeat grew my head -  Where do you buy your weed? Phone Post

Same place you buy your witts. I don't.
Are you implying if someone touches your beard/hair but not the actual skin, you don't feel it? Think before you post.

Oy, don't misspell 'wits' like that. It doesn't help your case in that context. Also, this is the UG. Don't try and discuss unconventional ideas here... you will be met with a wall of bull-headedness outside of a few stellar posters. Your idea is actually interesting, and does have some precedent biologically speaking. It does sound hilarious though, you have to admit. I'll VTFU.

I don't know why someone would VTFD or give him shit, but he's not getting mocked for an unconventional idea, but a really really retarded, from a science standpoint, idea.

No offense, but literally nothing you state holds even a ring of scientific truth to it lol

A) Whiskers carry discriminative touch sensation in animals, while our hair follicles are only able to carry crude touch. This is the difference between feeling something along the small of your back, and feeling something with your fingers.

Whiskers allow exploration, vibration sense, localization of objects, detection of shape and movement and hell, they even have a role in physical activities like fighting or swimming. They vastly more innervated and are moved to detect surrounding...

Think for a second how silly it wold be to imagine your beard doing any of this lol And think about somato sensory homunculi, you know those drawings of men with huge hands and tiny necks -- i.e. the greater the structure the more innvervation dedicated to it...

An animal with whiskers would be drawn with massive whiskers, how big do you think hair is drawn on the human homunculi lol

2) Do you even realise how quickly boxers punch?
I'm using boxing because that's what I most associate beard/chin terminology and that type of urban legend stuff with -- and according to a quick google, this is what Scientific American says about Hatton's punch:

"Slow motion video found that Hatton could typically generate punch speeds of 25 miles per hour, with one blow reaching 32 mph."

Hatton's not even the fastest or most technical boxer I'd think of, but using his non-ideal value of 25mph...

11.176 meters/second

So using simple formula of V=d/t we get time by distance/velocity...
so t= 0.03M/(11.176m/s)= just over 2.5 milliseconds

Now this math could be completely wrong, I'm neuro and bio so I haven't touched by basic physics in forever, but it seems pretty damn straightforward...

Now I won't bother unless someone asks specifically, but I can tell you for a fact that value is beyond your crude touch's transmission speed, really somatosensory transmission in general, and would not afford you any warning.
6/24/13 2:56 PM
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MattyECB
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Well fuck me, I didn't read the thread, someone already answered. VU to Jambo

6/24/13 3:02 PM
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MattyECB
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Jambo888 - 
dakotajudo - 
Ziga - Good reply dakotajudo.
But the tactical reaction time is not what's at play here. These reactions fall under flinching, which are the fastest reactions humans are capable of. Things like closing the eyes when you jump in the water, putting hands infront of the face before impact( which is why most wounds are on hands and arms, in accidents etc.), pulling the head away etc. It falls under flinching, please look up the exact timing, but its the fastest we are capable of because it bypasses the thoughts and goes straight to the cortex.
And since all I claimed was that it improves the ability to roll (half an inch means a mile with ko punches), I still stand by my statement.

It is exactly the "tactile" reaction time that you impy in your OP. Tactile, as in touch, no tactical.

Flinches, more commonly referred to in the literature as startle, are of the faster somatic reflex responses, but still on the order of 100ms; that leeway was implied in my response. 

That is, somatic responses using larger muscle groups have response times around 200-300 ms, while the fastest I can find (vestibulomasseteric - see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2343496/) has about a 10ms latency - that is, the time from stimulus to a first measurable electrophysiological signal in the muscle. Assume an additional 10-20 ms delay until peak muscle contraction. 

All told, still well shy of the 1 ms advance warning given by a beard.

Your problem is that you have failed to prove your original premise - that there is "beard effect". You might want to prove that, first, before attempting a physiological explanation.

There may indeed be a beard effect, but I doubt it's physiological. Much more likely to be psychological. Never discount the placebo effect in athletic performance. If a beard makes you feel tougher, you probably will be tougher. There may also be a perceived dominance effect. That is, your beard makes you appear more "manly" to your opponent, thus affecting his performance. See, for example, the "red shirt" effect, http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640410701744446#.Uccr1Ba-3ww and http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640410701736244#.UccrTRa-3ww

 

Finally, what you describe as flinching - closing your eyes and raising your arms - are reflexive, but conditioned and directed -and are not the fastest responses; not as fast as simple reflex arcs involving a couple neurons (i.e. pulling the head away). However, you are wrong to say "bypasses all thoughts and goes straight to the cortex". The cerebral cortex is were conscious processes (thoughts) occur, so by definition reflex responses don't go to the cortex. However, that does not mean the reflex responses are not processed, in varying degrees, by the CNS. See http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301008298000987

 


interesting analysis. what's your background smarty pants


Wow, literally nothing to add. Nice work, I'd give you more VUs if I could. You do neuro research?

And you're damn right about placebo, most amazing thing for me when I started research was seeing how ubiquitous it is. If placebo can cause a sufficiently large effect to make you think a useless drug is curing cancer, it can damn well make someone think they've got a better chin.

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