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HolyGround >> Jesus and abolishing the law


6/25/13 10:19 PM
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RoidsGracie
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On the one hand, Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law but top uphold it.

On the other hand, he clearly did perform actions that were contrary to law found in the Old Testament.

So what did Jesus mean when he said he did not come to abolish the law yet he violated the Sabbath, didn't perform the ritual cleansing the Jewish religious figures did, and the such? Was he talking about a different law - or maybe he was speaking along the lines of how he was here not to abolish the spirit of the law but or what the main point of the law was but only the legalistic elements contained in it?
6/25/13 10:42 PM
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RoninBT
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Refresh my memory. What Sabbath laws did he break and were do I find the verse Addressing hand washing? Phone Post 3.0
6/26/13 12:33 PM
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RoidsGracie
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I remember Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath law when he healed a man on the sabbath.

The hand washing incident was described in Luke chapter 11:

Now when He had spoken, a Pharisee asked Him to have lunch with him; and He went in, and reclined at the table. When the Pharisee saw it, he was surprised that He had not first ceremonially washed before the meal. But the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness. “You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also? “But give that which is within as charity, and then all things are clean for you.
6/26/13 12:34 PM
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RoidsGracie
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Also, he saved the adultress from being stoned by the crowd.
6/26/13 3:11 PM
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RoninBT
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I understand what Jesus did. My question is What sabbath laws did he break and where do I find them? Phone Post 3.0
6/27/13 1:30 AM
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RoidsGracie
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3 Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”

4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.
6/27/13 1:53 AM
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RoninBT
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You keep stating things he did but I am not sure he was in violation of any laws. If he was then where are these laws found? In other words, where in the Books of Moses will I find laws that Jesus violated? Phone Post 3.0
6/28/13 2:22 AM
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Power Paw
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"In this passage Jesus and His disciples were traveling about, as they often did in their preaching work. This day was the Sabbath, and they were traveling through grain fields. The disciples were hungry so they plucked grain and ate. This was not stealing but was expressly permitted by the law, as long as one did so only to meet an immediate need, not to carry it home and keep it for future consumption (Deuteronomy 23:24f).

The Pharisees criticized the act, not as stealing, but as a violation of the Sabbath. This was the first of a whole series of conflicts between Jesus and the Pharisees about the Sabbath. Two things must be remembered. (1) The Pharisees, as they had done with other things (Matthew 15:1-14), had added a whole complex system of traditions about Sabbath observance. Much of this was intricate and detailed; but above all it was based on their own ideas, not on what God's law really said. (2) They were motivated in their criticisms, not by sincere concern for the Sabbath, but by a desire to trap Jesus (v10). "


"Jesus lived under the Mosaic law (Matthew 5:17-20). It remained in effect till He died. The Sabbath was part of that law, included even in the 10 Commands (Exodus 20:8-11; 16:22-30; 23:12; 31:12-17; 34:21; 35:2,3; cf. 22:16; Numbers 15:32-36; etc.) Jesus obeyed the law without sin (Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:21ff; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Jesus' sinlessness was essential to His being a sinless sacrifice for us (see previous verses). If Jesus had transgressed or violated the Sabbath law or any other Divine law, He would not have been sinless and could not have been the sacrifice to take away our sins! To claim, as some do, that Jesus violated the Sabbath law, is to spiritually condemn all men to eternal torment, for it leaves us without a sinless sacrifice for our sins! Furthermore, Jesus set a perfect example for us to follow (see the above verses). If He violated God's laws, what kind of example would that set? "


http://www.gospelway.com/topics/bible/jesus_sabbath.php

He did uphold the law...perfectly...thereby qualifying Him to be the ultimate sacrifice. However, if one does not accept what Jesus did, then you are not under grace, but still under the law. This is unfortunate, because the only man who ever managed to live in perfect obedience, was the Son of God.


Romans 3:23

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


Acts 15

5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

6/28/13 11:50 AM
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Saint Stevo
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That was a great break down of Jesus not breaking the law. Great Job Paw.
6/29/13 12:59 PM
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RoninBT
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Power Paw,

I agree with Stevo, you made some very insightful observations. But you can’t make a post that long without inspiring follow up questions & statements. So here is my contribution.

You said: "Jesus lived under the Mosaic law (Matthew 5:17-20). It remained in effect till He died.”

The idea that that the law was no longer in effect after his death would have been a major change, concept, paradigm switch. Jesus had many chances to clarify this to be the case but never did. As Roids pointed out Jesus clearly states that he did “not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it”. To make the claim that “fulfill” means to “no longer be in effect” is an oxymoron. To substantiate your position we have to piece together other writings, mostly letters written by Paul. Some people believe that Paul was imparted all knowledge during his road to Damascus experience or that when he was writing letters he was possessed by the holy ghost and those words are the literal words of God. If you take that position then Paul’s writings can take precedence over all other scripture. This is not my position so I will stick to the simple and clear message constantly put forth in the Old Testament and by Jesus himself.

You said: “Jesus obeyed the law without sin (Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:21ff; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Jesus' sinlessness was essential to His being a sinless sacrifice for us (see previous verses). If Jesus had transgressed or violated the Sabbath law or any other Divine law, He would not have been sinless and could not have been the sacrifice to take away our sins! To claim, as some do, that Jesus violated the Sabbath law, is to spiritually condemn all men to eternal torment, for it leaves us without a sinless sacrifice for our sins!”

I agree 100%. BUT God says that He does not change (Mal. 3:6). I assume this means His opinion of what is sin (right vs. wrong) does not change. If it would have been sin for Jesus to violate the law why would it not be for us? Did God’s opinion of right and wrong change at the moment of Jesus’s death? Does the fact that we can’t keep the law perfectly absolve us from trying? Heaven forbid.

You said: “Jesus set a perfect example for us to follow (see the above verses). If He violated God's laws, what kind of example would that set?”

I agree 100%. WWJD – “what would Jesus do” is seen on bracelets, shirt, hats….. I say what DID Jesus do? Let that be our example. Jesus kept the law perfectly, he is our example of how to live, now ignore that and go do the opposite. This is madness.

You said: “The Sabbath was part of that law, included even in the 10 Commands (Exodus 20:8-11; 16:22-30; 23:12; 31:12-17; 34:21; 35:2,3; cf. 22:16; Numbers 15:32-36; etc.)”

In fact the 4th commandment is the Sabbath. It’s also the longest and most descriptive commandment and is second only to the 1st commandment in the number of times it is repeated throughout the bible. This leads me to believe it is pretty important. If it can be changed or made of “no effect” then what other of the 10 commandments can we disregard?

You mentioned being under “grace” vs under “the law” as if they are mutually exclusive. That’s not how it works in my house. My kids have grace but they also have the loving instruction of their father. They don’t always understand my laws but I always have their best interest at heart. I have made the case, on other threads, that the most profound biblical truths are imbedded into our family relationships. If that statement seems reasonable to you then I ask, does grace trump law in your household?

You referenced Act 15 (good stuff). I think they were having the same struggles with the pharisaic ideas that Jesus did. But Jesus did not tell them to throw the law out, instead he attempted to bypass the manmade laws, that you mentioned, and get back to the simple instructions of our Father. I would encourage to not ignore verse 21. To expect the new converts to immediately be torah observant, not to mention keeping all the manmade laws was not realistic. I believe the take home message of Act 15 is: give them the basics and they will learn the rest as they go along (i.e., Moses is taught in synagogues every Sabbath).

Make no mistake, I am not claiming that salvation is achieved by keeping the law. Salvation is by grace through faith. I am stating that keeping the law is an act of obedience which leads to blessing. Read Psalms 19:7-14 and tell me the law is not for us.

Sincerely,
Bydge
7/1/13 4:15 AM
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Power Paw
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Edited: 07/01/13 4:36 AM
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Hey guys,

sorry I didn't make it clear enough, those quotation marks are easy to miss. I posted what I thought was a good breakdown from the website I linked and then I gave a few words afterwards to clear up any ambiguity. I am glad that it has opened up a discussion though. That's excellent, we can learn from each other. Who doesn't benefit when we get into the Word?

Ronin: Make no mistake, I am not claiming that salvation is achieved by keeping the law. Salvation is by grace through faith. I am stating that keeping the law is an act of obedience which leads to blessing. Read Psalms 19:7-14 and tell me the law is not for us.

I absolutely agree!

Matthew 5:17-19

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Jesus summed up the point of the law very beautifully:

Matthew 22:34-40

34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Jesus spelled it out for us, this is what the law is really about. To be a follower of Jesus, and to disregard this...well, I'd question how much following a person is doing.

As Paul points out, that is certainly not the point of grace.

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?


15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.


So by grace, there is a desire from the heart to be obedient to the law. Given the direct, clear, concise point of the law that Jesus illuminated, it makes a lot of sense.


The NT stance is not that it isn't right but that the law without Christ would be our undoing.

Romans 5

13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

As noted from Acts 17:29-30

29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent


and as prophesied in the OT, there would be a different way to approach the law and no more excuses! a new covenant...

Jeremiah 31:31-34


A New Covenant

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”


So it's written on our hearts and minds...



and from Romans 2


12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

and

25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded[b] as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically[c] uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code[d] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
7/1/13 4:16 AM
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Power Paw
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Edited: 07/01/13 4:37 AM
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Romans 7 does an excellent job at explaining how the law by itself leads to our undoing, I am not able to make it more concise or clear, so I will provide this link: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207&version=ESV


I'm trying to stay as much as possible in the Word and not interject any of my own musings here. In accordance with:

Proverbs 3:5-6

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct[a] your paths.

(one of my favorites!)


With that being said, I would argue that the emphasis should be placed on prayerfully developing a relationship with God. Everything else will follow as a result of building a solid relationship with God first. Thankfully, we have been given help.


John 14:15-21

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,[f] to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be[g] in you. 18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

So as imperfect as we are, we grow closer to the example of Jesus as we get in touch with Him.

Jesus again points out that obedience comes from love, but the Helper, the Spirit:

John 16:13-15

13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

This would be my focus for a new convert. Get into the Word, seek God in all ways for He has said:

Jeremiah 29:13

13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Now, I assert that this is the foundation in order to protect against the many misleading doctrines out there:

Ephesians 4:11-15

11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[c] and teachers,[d] 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[e] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,


Keeping in mind that:


1 John 4:1-6


Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.


Ronin: To substantiate your position we have to piece together other writings, mostly letters written by Paul. Some people believe that Paul was imparted all knowledge during his road to Damascus experience or that when he was writing letters he was possessed by the holy ghost and those words are the literal words of God. If you take that position then Paul’s writings can take precedence over all other scripture. This is not my position so I will stick to the simple and clear message constantly put forth in the Old Testament and by Jesus himself. "

Well, it seems that you agree with Paul a lot more than you realize. Paul does not claim to have been imparted with all knowledge. I do consider his writings to be inspired by God as much as all the other authors in the bible. His testimony is indeed a powerful one. I invite you to prayerfully read through Romans again and see if the Word speaks to you. Anyway, I do believe that OT+NT is the Word of God and that:

John 1:1, 14-17

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[d] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

and as Jesus pointed out:

Matthew 12:25

25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand."

So scripture must certainly agree with itself. I do find consistency throughout, and as you pointed out, God does not change. In sum, it's not the law itself that is the issue but rather how we relate to it. It is no longer the law we must keep to be saved, but the law we strive to keep because we are saved. I really need to go to bed. Thank you for the opportunity to increase my own understanding and hopefully (more importantly) that of others too.

Blessings,

(I really gotta change my sn...lol)
7/12/13 1:50 PM
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JitsuGuy
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That law that his father (God) created and implemented and doomed all of humanity with.

God is perfect and needs nothing, except your sacrifice, blood of innocent creatures and more. I mean, he needs nothing, but chooses to create a law for people he also created that would be incapable of keeping this same law and bringing suffering upon themselves and others.

How does this make any sense and more than that, how does anyone accept this as "okay?"

7/12/13 5:27 PM
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770mdm
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Where does it say God is perfect in all his ways?  Not trolling - I don't believe you'll find anything of the sort in OT and also Prophets or Writings.  I think it would be just NT yes?

If God needs nothing then why does he need us to worship him?  If' he's all powerful how can he be all merciful?  A God that is perfectly powerful cannot be also perfectly good. 

"So if it’s not a bundle of “perfections” that the prophets and scholars who wrote the Hebrew Bible referred to in speaking of God, what was it they were talking about? As Donald Harman Akenson writes, the God of Hebrew Scripture is meant to be an “embodiment of what is, of reality” as we experience it."  Yoram Hazony-

7/15/13 1:40 PM
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JitsuGuy
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770mdm - 

Where does it say God is perfect in all his ways?  Not trolling - I don't believe you'll find anything of the sort in OT and also Prophets or Writings.  I think it would be just NT yes?

If God needs nothing then why does he need us to worship him?  If' he's all powerful how can he be all merciful?  A God that is perfectly powerful cannot be also perfectly good. 

"So if it’s not a bundle of “perfections” that the prophets and scholars who wrote the Hebrew Bible referred to in speaking of God, what was it they were talking about? As Donald Harman Akenson writes, the God of Hebrew Scripture is meant to be an “embodiment of what is, of reality” as we experience it."  Yoram Hazony-


Oh, I thought Christians thought God was perfect. Nevermind then.

I don't think the god of the bible is perfect, the biblical evidence for that is rather vast.
1/10/14 9:13 PM
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Wahlau
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RoidsGracie - On the one hand, Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law but top uphold it.

On the other hand, he clearly did perform actions that were contrary to law found in the Old Testament.

So what did Jesus mean when he said he did not come to abolish the law yet he violated the Sabbath, didn't perform the ritual cleansing the Jewish religious figures did, and the such? Was he talking about a different law - or maybe he was speaking along the lines of how he was here not to abolish the spirit of the law but or what the main point of the law was but only the legalistic elements contained in it?

He didn't say he he didn't come to abolish the law but to uphold the law, he said he did not come to abolish the law but to FULFILL it.


1/11/14 10:28 AM
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770mdm
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I wish all law worked the way of Christianity then. I don't have to obey the law because someone else has already fulfilled it! Doesn't make sense right!? Because otherwise you'd be keeping Kosher too. Phone Post 3.0
1/11/14 7:52 PM
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Wahlau
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Doesn't make sense? Thats the whole point of the New Covenant!

Thats whats the difference between Christianity and Judaism.

Unfortunately most Christians don't realize this, and instead of relying on Christ's righteousness, try to get right with God on their own righteousness.


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