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6/27/13 12:19 AM
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Porkchop
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JeffersonDArcyChoke - 
Macedawgg -
Porkchop - MMA does pay shitty. It's not like other MMA orgs pay more than the UFC.

If you aren't in it for the glory and you are just in it for money, you are fighting for the wrong reasons.

LOL.  This is professional prize fighting.  If you AREN'T in it for the money, you are in it for the wrong reasons.

Correct.

You are driven to do it because you are good at it or at least better than others.

But it's about money.

Here is a hypothetical situation for any fighter.

1. You can be champ of any UFC weight division.

You will beat anyone.

You will be P4P the best.

Your pay will not be enough to retire on and set your family up for life.

Or.

2. You are not the champ.

You get enough money to retire and set up your children for education and potential success.

Only a fool would choose the belt over financial security.

It's prize fighting and the belt represents the best but the prize being fought over is money and the only reason you want to be champ is because being the best typically ensures you are paid commensurate to that position.

It's the UFC.

It ain't UNICEF.

No one is here for altruistic reasons. Phone Post

You are missing my point.

There is nothing altruistic about fighting for glory and respect. I never said there was.

If you want to make a nice living, don't be an MMA fighter where you pay back 59% of your paycheck to make your next paycheck.

If you want to be the baddest man on the planet.... then fight in MMA.

All you accomplish by calling people who care more about being the best than the money fools is insulting the people who built this sport with blood sweat and tears.

All your MMA heros from the early days of MMA made sweet fuck all and they cared about being the best because of what it meant to them - not their bank accounts.

So if you want to call them fools, that is your choice. But I call those people pioneers and true fighters who fought for the right reasons.
6/27/13 12:20 AM
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Porkchop
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Elvis -  Man if he's paying out 59% of his earnings his problem isn't his pay but his money management.

I understand why fighters want more money, that's normal. What I don't understand is why they complain about 'ufc' pay when the ufc pays more than anyone else and the residual earnings from being a ufc star is far greater than any other org. Look what Forest did... used his smarts and wrote some books at the peak of his fighting career. Randy and Rampage got their movie opportunities from their exposure in the ufc. Phone Post

6/27/13 12:32 AM
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Porkchop
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MMA Lives Here - 
Porkchop -
MMA Lives Here - 
Porkchop - MMA does pay shitty. It's not like other MMA orgs pay more than the UFC.

If you aren't in it for the glory and you are just in it for money, you are fighting for the wrong reasons.


Uhhh... wtf are you talking about?

Are pro fighters supposed to be missionaries or charity workers or something? Are there people who are actually this dumb?

The UFC is killing the pig right now and the vast majority of its fighters aren't reaping the benefits. They refuse to unionize; they prefer having this "locker room bonus" setup where they come off looking generous but have the worst pay ratio in US-based pro sports.

Kennedy is courageous to speak out about it. Good for him. Phone Post



You aren't seeing the big picture shithead.

If you want to be a fighter, that's fine. If you are the best in the world, then you should be compensated with big time money.

The MMA business model doesn't work when all the fighters are financially comfortable. Think about it for half a second.

In a perfect world everyone would get paid huge for the work they do but paying MMA fighters what they want to be paid will fuck up the whole system.

For most guys, part of being hungry is being broke.

Fighting isn't like other sports. Most fighters perform best with their backs against the wall.

It's a brutal sport and if you choose to ignore the truth of it then you are blind and that is your fault.
Is this guy for real? Can we add him to the list of Zuffa shills?

"The MMA business model doesn't work when all the fighters are financially comfortable."

So, you want all these UFC athletes to continue to be grossly underpaid? Is that the point you're making?

Also, The UFC is not the sum total of MMA. Just FYI, there are local and regional circuits and national/international promotions that act as feeder orgs to the UFC. The UFC is underpaying its athletes. Take away training expenses and most of these fighters are getting paid very little. Meanwhile, Zuffa is killing the pig.

And your theory about fighters competing better when they're broke is just mind-blowing. MMA isn't street brawling, you've been watching too many movies. As a general rule, you don't want to fight with emotion. "Broke Fitch" is a myth. "Broke Fitch" got cut. Phone Post

I never said anything about fighting with emotion. I'm talking about fighting with motivation. In the sense that I am talking about, they are separate things.

I don't "want" fighters to be grossly underpaid at all. I'm just saying that the UFC won't be able to keep all these guys together when pay does increase. They will care less about the UFC belt and will care more about how much they are making. That could lead them anywhere.

The UFC wont be the only people benefitting financially from a bigger MMA market. Others will reap the benefits and will be more willing to fork out money to fighters to compete with the UFC when they can. This will split up the fighters.

I personally don't care though because I wont change what is going to happen either way.

I'm just saying that if you want fighters to all get rich, you are going to have problems and a lot of MMA fans are going to not be as happy about it as they think they will.

But I personally couldn't care less. I hate to hear about a guy who pays away 59% of his check for fight prep but to me that is more poor money management then him getting screwed over. These guys have responsibilities and they knew what the pay was like when they signed up. It's fine for them to want more, but I don't feel all that sorry for them. They have every right to go make a better living somewhere else.

But with MMA they are afforded the risk and reward business model. If they play their cards right and beat the right people, they might be set for life. If they fall just slightly short of that, they will likely struggle financially. That was their gamble.

I might as well lobby for insurance on losing lottery tickets if I want to get up in arms about fighter pay.
6/27/13 12:36 AM
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Porkchop
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Edited: 06/27/13 12:44 AM
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MMA Lives Here - 
Porkchop -
Fobby - 
Porkchop - I get voted down in this place for speaking the truth. Wonder why I don't give a shit about green arrows? This is why.
Sounds like you do care.

Nerd. Phone Post 3.0

Sounds like you might be retarded....


Good comeback nerd Phone Post



I can only assume that he thinks that by me saying that I don't give a shit about something that it means that somehow I do. He'd have to be a straight moron to be that bad with deduction.

As for you, you need to stop taking this so personally. Man the fuck up and untwist those panties. I'm not here to bitch at people like you would like me to. I'm speaking the truth and you don't know how to deal with it other than try to insult me.

At that point, I can only assume that you have run out of things to say. Nothing thoughtful to add? - Start calling people names...

This is what I should be expecting of you though I guess.... At least take the time to come up with your own insults next time though.... Put a little effort in to it if that's all you can do.....
6/27/13 12:45 AM
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Macedawgg
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Let's list the propaganda items that are spewed ad nauseum: 

1.  We don't have any idea what they are making!  They all get fat stacks with secret checks!

Slowly but surely--this myth is being debunked. 

2.  All those who reported on the story in the past were frauds and inventing!

Sure.

Next, you have the appeal to the fans, and how the current "model" is actually in their best interest. 

3.  Fighters making more will be less "hungry." 

4.  Fighters making more will have more options, and thus, you won't see the fights you want to see.

Sure.  Canelo-PBF anyone?  Oh yeah, we never did get to see Fedor-Couture did we?  How about Eddie Alvarez v. Gil or Benson?  We see that? 

These are professional athletes in the most extreme type of competition that exists.  They are HYPER motivated already to perform. 

Then you have the position of Elvis, who takes the UFC's position as paying the most as a sign that they should be exempt from any sort of criticism.  This ignores the "system" that has been installed to lead to exactly this result.  Let's use Fedor again as an example. 

Despite never having competed in the UFC, he was, for around a decade, not only the number 1 ranked heavyweight, but the number 1 overall ranked mixed martial artist.  His promoters must have done something phenomenal to obtain this status despite never having competed in the UFC.  Could they co-promote a fight?  No.  Could they take a 1 fight deal with the UFC to see who was better?  No.  Could they take a 1 fight deal with a rematch clause?  No.  Could Fedor promote himself and compete against the UFC's best?  No. 

6/27/13 12:48 AM
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Macedawgg
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I'm sure I've missed many popular retorts--please add to the list. 

6/27/13 12:50 AM
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Macedawgg
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5.  They are just bitter washouts!

Another very popular refrain, connected in many ways with number 6 below.

6.  They haven't fought in the UFC, and thus, haven't "proved" themselves.

This was, for years and years, very cleverly used by the UFC to indoctrinate the belief into many.  Of course, the Strikeforce fighters who moved over are sure holding their own, aren't they? 

6/27/13 1:30 AM
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SmackyBear
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Marketing guy - 
TeamRenzo - If people want to compare salaries from other sports, not that I think it is relevant then look at how much Tiger Woods made last year in PGA salary/winnings vs endorsements.

the lowest paid guy at the U. S. Open makes about 10k

Not to get too sidetracked, but I do think compensation in other sports is an interesting topic.

To be fair, half the golfers who qualify for the US Open make nothing at all since they miss the cut.

The payouts the last couple of years for the US Open have been about $8M and the revenues can exceed $100M at a large enough club. Obviously less for this year's Open since the course was tiny. But still, the player's share is pretty small compared to the team sports.

Just throwing that out there.
6/27/13 3:09 AM
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Kool_Aid_Man
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Isnt Kennedy contract being carried over from Strikeforce?

thats UFC's fault how?
6/27/13 5:27 AM
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Dirt Dog Sandwiches
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Did anyone else find it retarded that he listed nutrition and housing as part of his expenses?

THat is retarded. Hey I work at a school and I have to pay for food and rent also. Does that mean I deduct that from my annual salary and calculate that I make 10,000. How is it he's only counting his take home profit as his salary. That's retarded.


Tim Kennedy, your accounting skills are lacking as well as your standup
6/27/13 9:48 AM
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Marketing guy
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Filo_Beto - 
Marketing guy - 
Thacommish - 
Filo_Beto - 
Thacommish - "Now I eagerly await the masses of 16-25 year olds that have never held a career-level full time job to tell me how I know nothing and poor mma fighters have it so rough. Guess what guys: If the only skill you have to offer the workforce is the ability to beat up other guys, and you are "meh" at it...don't come crying to me that you're making McDonalds employee level money...because you're the mma equivalent of McDonalds level talent at that point."

I cant believe someone that considers himself above 16-25 year olds made such a horrible emotionally inspired connection between ufc fighters and mcdonalds employees.

Your logic is severely misguided. If your only talent in the workforce is hitting a baseball in mlb and you are "meh" about it don't come crying to me. Oh wait the league minimum in baseball is 400k.

If you notice im quoting someone else in the first paragraph. Thats not my logic i think its severely misguided also. Mostly because he is comparing the number 1 brand and top quality mma org to mcdonalds and saying that they should be compensated equally.
wvugreenlantern is the guy whom i quoted. I just didnt want to quote his entire frat paragraph with me

Minimum salary in the MLB is 490,000. at 162 games per season that breaks down to 3024.69 per game. I have a feeling this will all look about the same across the board. The issue is more that fighters fight a lot less per year than the average athlete in other sports can compete.

Wow , that is some amazing mathematics. I don't know what worse , comparing what a baseball player does for a living to the most physically demanding sport in the world bar none or thinking a fighter sits on his couch up until the day he has to fight.

Wow, I'm not sure whats worse, thinking that fighting is the most physically demanding sport "bar none" or thinking that in any sport the athlete just sits on the couch till game day. All pro athletes train their asses off. I would assume that football (where brain damage and some sort of paralysis occurs multiple times yearly) is at least as crushing to a person's physical health as a fighter (if not far more.) Also The UFC only makes money when a fighter performs at a function. This may not be true for the stars but as an undercard fighter there is no revenue if there is no fight. If I own a baseball team there are 162 opportunities for me to make money. A rookie will be at least dressed to play for many of those games. I am looking at this from a purely business perspective. You get paid to create revenue. A baseball player creates a lot more revenue than a mma fighter purely based on how many competitions they are a part of as well as the amount of revenue baseball creates vs. mma. Sometimes you have to take the emotion out of it when it comes to business. I don't always agree with the UFC but I do see their point. Its mostly a performance based business. How many people buy a ppv just to see Tim Kennedy? People may buy one if they see him on a card that is decent already but not just to see him.
6/27/13 9:54 AM
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UGCTT_ Lay'n'PrayNINJA
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I see people are still foolishly trying to compare this to team sports with 10x the revenue or more... Phone Post
6/27/13 9:54 AM
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PsychoDad
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Anyone who believes making 6k per fight, on 'the big show' no less, is adequate is delusional. The fighter will see 3-4k of that, at best. Yet White can blow 200k on gambling in a night. How is that fair? It isn't.

Not everyone should make millions, but they should make SOME bank. It's only fair considering how they risk being permanently messed up for our entertainment. Also, lol @ doing it for'honour and glory'. You sound like Al Bundy.
6/27/13 10:45 AM
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RicGillespie
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Macedawgg - 

Let's list the propaganda items that are spewed ad nauseum: 

1.  We don't have any idea what they are making!  They all get fat stacks with secret checks!

Slowly but surely--this myth is being debunked. 

2.  All those who reported on the story in the past were frauds and inventing!

Sure.

Next, you have the appeal to the fans, and how the current "model" is actually in their best interest. 

3.  Fighters making more will be less "hungry." 

4.  Fighters making more will have more options, and thus, you won't see the fights you want to see.

Sure.  Canelo-PBF anyone?  Oh yeah, we never did get to see Fedor-Couture did we?  How about Eddie Alvarez v. Gil or Benson?  We see that? 

These are professional athletes in the most extreme type of competition that exists.  They are HYPER motivated already to perform. 

Then you have the position of Elvis, who takes the UFC's position as paying the most as a sign that they should be exempt from any sort of criticism.  This ignores the "system" that has been installed to lead to exactly this result.  Let's use Fedor again as an example. 

Despite never having competed in the UFC, he was, for around a decade, not only the number 1 ranked heavyweight, but the number 1 overall ranked mixed martial artist.  His promoters must have done something phenomenal to obtain this status despite never having competed in the UFC.  Could they co-promote a fight?  No.  Could they take a 1 fight deal with the UFC to see who was better?  No.  Could they take a 1 fight deal with a rematch clause?  No.  Could Fedor promote himself and compete against the UFC's best?  No. 


Yes, the propaganda from an ambulance chaser with his own agenda is somehow more compelling then the ones you have listed.
6/27/13 11:13 AM
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CindyO
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Kool_Aid_Man - Isnt Kennedy contract being carried over from Strikeforce?

thats UFC's fault how?

Cuz DW's the debil, KAM! He's the Debil!!!

 

Cindy

6/27/13 11:15 AM
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Lobo8
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You guys act like the low level fighters are forever trapped on these 6k deals. Everytime you win you have a raise in pay, theres always potential for extra locker room bonuses, and then theirs the chance of winning fight of night,sub, ko bonuses. Also you get bumped up to the tv prelims where you can make good sponsor money. The staircase to earn more is there. But as usual these low level fighters think they deserve to ride the escalator because they managed to get in the ufc. Getting in is just step one. If you cant win and compete well then you dont belong. Win some fights, be marketable and your earning potential goes way up.
6/27/13 12:04 PM
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PsychoDad
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My point is, 6k is fuck all. Even a newcomer should make more than that.
6/27/13 12:32 PM
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Macedawgg
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RicGillespie - 
Macedawgg - 

Let's list the propaganda items that are spewed ad nauseum: 

1.  We don't have any idea what they are making!  They all get fat stacks with secret checks!

Slowly but surely--this myth is being debunked. 

2.  All those who reported on the story in the past were frauds and inventing!

Sure.

Next, you have the appeal to the fans, and how the current "model" is actually in their best interest. 

3.  Fighters making more will be less "hungry." 

4.  Fighters making more will have more options, and thus, you won't see the fights you want to see.

Sure.  Canelo-PBF anyone?  Oh yeah, we never did get to see Fedor-Couture did we?  How about Eddie Alvarez v. Gil or Benson?  We see that? 

These are professional athletes in the most extreme type of competition that exists.  They are HYPER motivated already to perform. 

Then you have the position of Elvis, who takes the UFC's position as paying the most as a sign that they should be exempt from any sort of criticism.  This ignores the "system" that has been installed to lead to exactly this result.  Let's use Fedor again as an example. 

Despite never having competed in the UFC, he was, for around a decade, not only the number 1 ranked heavyweight, but the number 1 overall ranked mixed martial artist.  His promoters must have done something phenomenal to obtain this status despite never having competed in the UFC.  Could they co-promote a fight?  No.  Could they take a 1 fight deal with the UFC to see who was better?  No.  Could they take a 1 fight deal with a rematch clause?  No.  Could Fedor promote himself and compete against the UFC's best?  No. 


Yes, the propaganda from an ambulance chaser with his own agenda is somehow more compelling then the ones you have listed.

Ambulance chaser--I don't, Oh!  I get it, all lawyers are ambulance chasers!  Witty! 

Agenda?  My agenda isn't hidden at all.  I've announced it hundreds of times. 

What in my post do you find inaccurate? 

6/27/13 2:22 PM
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dabigguy
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DMCA18 - 
dabigguy - 
Bigyoutube - Come on people stop being morons , if you actually think fighters get payed enough money you are the reason the sport will be dead in 10-15 years , why the hell would aspiring athletes bother turning to MMA when it pays so pathetically at the highest level ... Look at what a rookie football, hockey, baseball, basketball player makes in his first pro year and try and say that fighters get payed enough , pathetic , I love this sport stop ruining its future with dumb sayings like , if you are in it for money you are in it for the wrong reasons , we all need money to live dumbasses , how the hell are you going to feed you're children without money! Phone Post 3.0

buddy you're about the only only one here that I read so far that makes any sense. Once these guys make to the UFC it should be time to get paid!! I understand that in the small shows they don't and can't pay as well and maybe those shows are for the guys that see it as more of a hobby type thing. it would pay just enough to put a bit in the pocket and pay their training and fees (MAYBE lol). But once you've earned a spot in the UFC it should be a different game completely. They claim to have the elite of the elite fighters so pay them that way. The UFC isn't just making a bit of $$$ they're making a lot of millions. if they just paid the fighters 1% of the of the gate money they'd get paid properly. if the gate is 3 million thats $100,000 each fighter on average. thats 1 fuckin percent. it doesn't have to be split the same pay for each fighter but the minimum fighter salary should be 80-90 grand. that way after taxes and bills they still have 20-30 grand in the bank. That would not hurt the UFC and the guys who put their life on the line to entertain the public on TV. Like I said on the smaller venues where there's no TV involved and the shows are small then that's different. the base salary for a rookie hockey player is $800,000 per year. Fighters have to train every bit as much as the big pro games why do they deserve less to be beaten on 10 times as much.
the people on here bitching that the fighters chose this it's too bad for them....... are the people that either can't make it or they only watch from the couch and are lazy and jealeous. Ya I'd fight and train every day for $8000 and try to feed my family and have no benefits to keep them healthy...NOT!!!....... WAKE UP dumass

$100k a fighter on a card with 12 fights would be $2.4mil. That's quite a bit steeper than 1% of a $3mil gate. On that sort of pay scale you would need to pay the higher tier fighters significantly more money to reward their drawing power. If the first prelim fight is making 100k you would need to pay Anderson Silva or Jon Jones upwards of a 1-2 million to show. Any organization would fold pretty quick spending that kind of cash every two weeks unless ppv purchases increased tenfold.


whatever you say must be right WRONG!!! Fuckin GLORY just paid $200K for the winner. I was just giving an example. No matter what guys don't make enough unless they're HUGE names. I'm a big fan of Overeem but what has he done to get paid large $cake..... not much so far. No one said anything about a that large of a pay scale that bigger names need millions. And according to your math $2.4mil is a million less than normal gates anyway. NO NOT ALL GATES... if thats what you want to come back with. I'm just saying fighters deserve more PERIOD. oh and if you think a billion dollar corporation would go under paying out 5-10 million per fight when they pull in 20-50 you're fooling yourself... why do you think they don't tell how much they make or pay
6/27/13 2:33 PM
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dabigguy
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Marketing guy - You cannot compare a undercard "rookie" UFC fighter's pay to that of an NHL rookie per year. The amount of performance time is DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT. Do it by performance to get an accurate comparison. Hockey rookies play 82 games per year. If you break it down per game, that is $9,756.00 per game. Seems pretty similar to me. Do they get a win bonus?

most rookie play about 6-8 minutes per game and they don't get the shit kicked out of themselves. they train hard but not as hard. getting punched in the face everyday and being punished is a lot harder than training for hockey, I've played over 30 seasons of hockey... apples and oranges. a guy cant fight 3 times a week, he'd be dead
6/27/13 2:39 PM
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pegson123
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i have tuned in more time to sf to watch sarah kaufman fight  than kennedy. 

6/27/13 3:16 PM
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RicGillespie
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Macedawgg - 
RicGillespie - 
Macedawgg - 

Let's list the propaganda items that are spewed ad nauseum: 

1.  We don't have any idea what they are making!  They all get fat stacks with secret checks!

Slowly but surely--this myth is being debunked. 

2.  All those who reported on the story in the past were frauds and inventing!

Sure.

Next, you have the appeal to the fans, and how the current "model" is actually in their best interest. 

3.  Fighters making more will be less "hungry." 

4.  Fighters making more will have more options, and thus, you won't see the fights you want to see.

Sure.  Canelo-PBF anyone?  Oh yeah, we never did get to see Fedor-Couture did we?  How about Eddie Alvarez v. Gil or Benson?  We see that? 

These are professional athletes in the most extreme type of competition that exists.  They are HYPER motivated already to perform. 

Then you have the position of Elvis, who takes the UFC's position as paying the most as a sign that they should be exempt from any sort of criticism.  This ignores the "system" that has been installed to lead to exactly this result.  Let's use Fedor again as an example. 

Despite never having competed in the UFC, he was, for around a decade, not only the number 1 ranked heavyweight, but the number 1 overall ranked mixed martial artist.  His promoters must have done something phenomenal to obtain this status despite never having competed in the UFC.  Could they co-promote a fight?  No.  Could they take a 1 fight deal with the UFC to see who was better?  No.  Could they take a 1 fight deal with a rematch clause?  No.  Could Fedor promote himself and compete against the UFC's best?  No. 


Yes, the propaganda from an ambulance chaser with his own agenda is somehow more compelling then the ones you have listed.

Ambulance chaser--I don't, Oh!  I get it, all lawyers are ambulance chasers!  Witty! 

Agenda?  My agenda isn't hidden at all.  I've announced it hundreds of times. 

What in my post do you find inaccurate? 


Where did I say you had a hidden agenda? Everyone knows what your agenda is. That's why disingenuous threads like this are so humorous.
6/27/13 4:42 PM
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Macedawgg
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What is disingenous about this thread?

You know my agenda.  Is this not in line with that agenda?

What in my prior post do you find inaccurate?  You didn't comment. . .

6/27/13 5:04 PM
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RicGillespie
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It's disingenuous because you're trying to use Kennedy's opinions as an example that the UFC doesn't pay very well. When in fact he has never fought for the UFC and has never signed a contract to fight for the UFC(I certainly don't count his Strikeforce contract as a UFC contract).
6/27/13 5:09 PM
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Macedawgg
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It is an example of Kennedy's opinions.  I didn't say it--Kennedy did.  Kennedy isn't the only one.  The list is long.  ESPN's John Barr was called a fraud when he reported on this issue, as was Josh Gross, as was myself.  Why?  Because the sources wouldn't go public--yet there were quite a number of them. 

I also assume (presumptuous of me) that Kennedy knows his payscale, and the payscale of those similarly situated. 


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