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7/2/13 4:01 PM
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IIAces
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Vikingknee - Fertittas bros are billionaires right? If you make just 5% return on a billion dollars you are making 50 million a year. Or 137,000 a day. They could pay fighters on interest alone without tapping into anything business related with profits ect. Phone Post 3.0
Their casino business isn't tied to Zuffa. So their wealth has nothing to do with it. They have many business like Viacom. So tell bellator to bump their pay too since they are so fucking wealthy.

Zuffa doesn't gross $500 million a year like many think. That's currently what Zuffa is worth if they sold it. They don't make that yearly.

Either way it's privately owned so no one knows the real numbers. All the expenses for merchandise, payroll for employes (lawyers, people in the office ect.), fighter pay, production cost, venue and hotel rental, plus many many many other things. And they do this every event, besides the office stuff. It's not fucking cheap to put events on. Phone Post 3.0
7/2/13 4:06 PM
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smoogy
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If you read the comments Dana made it's pretty clear he is NOT in favor of giving lower fighter raises and is only talking about cutting performance bonuses as a scare tactic to change the conversation toward the trivial, as he tends to do. It's a really disingenuous way of addressing all the recent talk about fighter purses in UFC being so low.

Keep in mind that people like CindyO are 100% aware of this and continue to lard threads like this with her garbage talking points anyway. Once UFC is set on a message, people like her and MMALogic just seek to spread that message as much as they can, knowing what kind of stupifying effect it has on genuine debate.

7/2/13 4:10 PM
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IIAces
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newjack900 - I would assume Bc the UFC has become such a global brand they are pulling in serious revenue. I think that's what is causing the confusion / unrest. We are constantly being reminded by Dana how huge the ufc has become yet the fighter pay hasn't seemed to have changed that drastically (at least at the bottom of cards). I don't think its a reach to think the fighters could be paid a little more while the bonuses remain.
Many of the older stars we love to watch so much started at 3/3 I think. New fighters are starting out at 6/6. They have doubled it. The UFC was in the red when they bought it. It stayed there for a while and they invested a fuck load of money into it before it was a success and in the green. That took years to accomplish. So I think they compensate better as the sport grows as they have. Just like the NFL, NBA, and MLB have done. They aren't nearly the size or mainstream of those sports. Dana says they are the top level for their sport like the NFL, MLB, and NBA. But they aren't even close to the size, revenue ect as the main stream sports. Phone Post 3.0
7/2/13 4:12 PM
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Kneeblock
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I can't wait to read the rest of this thread later tonight, but all I'll say for now is this passive aggressive statement is a clear divide and conquer tactic and is the oldest management trick in the book.

7/2/13 4:25 PM
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lookoutawhale
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epwar - 
Wonkamaster - Like they can't afford to do both? Lol.

This.  

Dana & Lorenzo discussing doing this to look magnanimous.  The fact is they can easily do BOTH!    


+1

hehe UFC making themselves look like they are barely scraping by financially like some neighbourhood startup company.

there seriously needs to be a union in play here.

7/2/13 4:46 PM
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MITman2k
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Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this has been posted already:

From Bloodyelbow citing more comments from dana about this:

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/7/1/4485134/dana-white-increase-ufc-fighter-pay-but-no-more-f-ing-bonuses-mma-news

"

"You don't like the structure? All right, we'll pay the lower-level guys more money – no more f--king bonuses," Dana White said. "You guys come in, you negotiate your contracts, and we do away with all bonuses. That's what I'm thinking about doing."

"The bonuses are something we've been doing out of the kindness of our f--king heart," White said. "It was something we liked to do. Apparently, people don't like it. They want the lower-level guys to get paid more money."

7/2/13 6:15 PM
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BUFFGEO
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Dana and the F bro's never intended this to be a sport, this was a business investment that later turned into a huge cash cow FOR THEM. I dont think they care about fighters pay and I think they see fighting as something you do in your free time, not as a primary job.... and the top 1% who have made financial security I think they just believe those guys were smart enough to leverage the system in thier favor.

I think that Dana uses the illusion that he is out to 'develop the sport' as a rouse to keep the support his way and keep the cash flowing. When he has had enough i think he will drop the whole UFC thing like a bad habit and never look back...


Just my opinion, hope im wrong but i dont see it
7/2/13 6:36 PM
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kingwank
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Okay, so I've read the whole thread...

Loads of bullshit and irrational-ness with a few moments of logic.

So, I started looking into how this might affect fighters.

  1. I went back to UFC 155 and looked at every event since then.
  2. I counted the number of guys making less than 15/15 in any given event and noted that.
  3. I looked at the difference in dollars if all those guys were making 15/15 and added up the total.
  4. I then looked at the winners and totaled the difference between what their win bonus was and 15.
  5. That gave me a total per event of "extra" money UFC would pay out (yeah, different guys could have won, but it's close enough)
  6. I calculated the OTN bonuses they paid out for each event and totaled that up.
  7. Then, for shits and giggles, I noted KOs and Subs by event and totaled those up.
So, here's my chart:
 
Event GB15 $DIFF $WIN TOTAL BONUS KO SUB
161 14 104 67 171 200 1 1
FUEL10 20 150 69 219 200 2 8
160 8 30 11 41 200 5 1
FX8 18 136 49 185 200 4 3
159 11 79 35 114 195 4 2
FOX7 9 39 13 44 200 8 0
TUF 17 110 54 164 200 5 4
FUEL9 21 151 65 216 240 3 4
158 14 87 25 112 150 5 0
FUEL8 12 84 34 118 200 3 0
157 8 67 27 94 200 1 4
FUEL7 16 131 54 185 200 2 1
156 8 45 24 69 200 3 2
FOX6 11 79 42 121 200 4 2
FX7 12 90 40 130 200 2 4
155 11 41 25 66 260 3 1
  210 1423 634 2049 3245 55 37
 
 
 
 
7/2/13 6:36 PM
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kingwank
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Here are my conclusions:
  • If you upped minimum pay to 15/15, you could have affected 210 guys on the 16 cards so far this year. They'd be making between $1-$9k more to show per fight.
  • It would cost UFC $2.049 mil to cover those costs.
  • In those 16 events, the UFC gave out $3.245 mil in OTN bonuses.
  • Also, there were 55 TKO/KO finishes and 37 submissions in those events.
 
Without asking UFC to blindly "do both" and worrying about revenue and EBITDA and all that shit, let's just work with what we have. 
 
It would seem to me:
  1. The UFC could bump fighter pay to 15/15.
  2. UFC could take the remaining money (between $1-1.5 mil) and give out one $50-75k FOTN bonus (x2 fighters) AND they could pay $10k in finish bonuses. 
  3. If they did this, they'd be within $500,000 of what they're already paying out given most recent results.
  4. And hell, even if every fight was a finish, it wouldn't go more than $1 mil more than what they're currently committed to and you can damn sure that if every fight was a finish, they'd be so stoked they'd be happy to give $10 finish bonuses to every fighter.
 
I'm certainly not in the business of telling dfwjr how to run his business, but I think it can be done in a meaningful way that captures some of the best ideas in this thread and still works within a reasonable budget that the company can afford.
 
Just my 2 nickels worth. Let me know if my numbers don't make sense. Also, I appreciate reasonable discussion on my conclusions.
7/2/13 6:55 PM
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IIAces
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Don't forget the company's $425 million term loan that is due in 2015. Phone Post 3.0
7/2/13 7:27 PM
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Immaculata
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Wonkamaster - Like they can't afford to do both? Lol.

.


7/2/13 8:19 PM
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JimmersonzGlove
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7/2/13 8:57 PM
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mclay
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RicGillespie - Put all the bonus money into one big pool and split it up for every fighter on the card that has a finish.
Nice!! Phone Post 3.0
7/2/13 9:55 PM
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newjack900
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IIAces - 
newjack900 - I would assume Bc the UFC has become such a global brand they are pulling in serious revenue. I think that's what is causing the confusion / unrest. We are constantly being reminded by Dana how huge the ufc has become yet the fighter pay hasn't seemed to have changed that drastically (at least at the bottom of cards). I don't think its a reach to think the fighters could be paid a little more while the bonuses remain.
Many of the older stars we love to watch so much started at 3/3 I think. New fighters are starting out at 6/6. They have doubled it. The UFC was in the red when they bought it. It stayed there for a while and they invested a fuck load of money into it before it was a success and in the green. That took years to accomplish. So I think they compensate better as the sport grows as they have. Just like the NFL, NBA, and MLB have done. They aren't nearly the size or mainstream of those sports. Dana says they are the top level for their sport like the NFL, MLB, and NBA. But they aren't even close to the size, revenue ect as the main stream sports. Phone Post 3.0

I'm not talking about where they were at in 2004. I'm talking about in just the past few years all of the new markets that have opened up - I always hear about these huge numbers the UFC is doing in Brazil, that has to have made an impact in revenue no? They have also become quite popular in Canada and the UK.. Idk it just seems like I keep hearing how much it has grown on the global scale in the past few years I would expect the revenue to dramatically increase with that popularity. Just think about all of the recent television deals the UFC has been making in the past 2 years.
7/2/13 10:02 PM
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Lebronfloppedhisnutsonmyface
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Wonkamaster - Like they can't afford to do both? Lol.

Exaaaaaactly...!

7/2/13 10:15 PM
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Mertvaya Ruka
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lol, dana and lorenzo are clever. I'm 100% sure most fighters are against removing the bonuses.

It's a good way to see the "crabs in a bucket" theory.
7/2/13 10:26 PM
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CindyO
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BeatonHauff -  The worst players in any professional sports are making a decent living, I bet NFL kickers make more in a year then the top ufc fighters make in a year, and don't have nearly the amount of expenses. Is it even possible to make a living fighting for 12 grand every couple months after taxes, managers fees, gym fees? Imagine trying to plan for your future with no retirement or pension plan, and not being able to save money I'm not saying they can afford to do both, but when Dana brags about losing a million dollars in one night gambling, and you have lower level fighters that would never be able to get by without a second job, it makes the situation laughable, the UFC is suppose to be the big leagues. And stop fucking bring up bellator, it's about the UFC. Phone Post

Should millionaire actors pay their staff substantially more than their peers doing the same thing make just because they can "afford" to? When Gates gets a fat check does he spread the wealth to his workers just because he is a nice guy, a baller and can afford to? Or do they get reg. raises that are inline with their peers? If I had to guess, I think his maid must be a millionaire by now with that logic.

EVERYONE wants to make more money. Just because your boss is a baller it doesn't mean he owes the same to his staff, especially when a contract outlining pay was agreed upon and signed by both parties.

As long as Zuffa is paying better than anyone else, offers better benefits and bonuses, provides insurance that none of their "competitors" do, as well as ensures an even playing field via drug testing 100% of their athletes, they are doing MORE (and better than ) than the rest so I don't see the heartburn, really. Wah!

 

Cindy


as well as ensures an even playing field via drug testing 100% of their athletes,

I'm sorry did the ufc recently implement random 24/7/365 drug testing that I am not aware of?  Did they agree to do the best testing available? Oh they didn't? Oh you're saying 'but, but, but the government regulates them!" Oh well then...

 


LOL@ you!! EVERY athlete on EVERY card in EVERY country is tested if they're in the UFC. The ACs don't require 100%. And the UFC pays for it. Its not fair to compete on a professional level and NOT be tested... EVERYONE. Do you disagree?

 

Cindy

7/2/13 10:41 PM
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Team GDP
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CindyO - 
Team GDP - 
CindyO - 
BeatonHauff -  The worst players in any professional sports are making a decent living, I bet NFL kickers make more in a year then the top ufc fighters make in a year, and don't have nearly the amount of expenses. Is it even possible to make a living fighting for 12 grand every couple months after taxes, managers fees, gym fees? Imagine trying to plan for your future with no retirement or pension plan, and not being able to save money I'm not saying they can afford to do both, but when Dana brags about losing a million dollars in one night gambling, and you have lower level fighters that would never be able to get by without a second job, it makes the situation laughable, the UFC is suppose to be the big leagues. And stop fucking bring up bellator, it's about the UFC. Phone Post

Should millionaire actors pay their staff substantially more than their peers doing the same thing make just because they can "afford" to? When Gates gets a fat check does he spread the wealth to his workers just because he is a nice guy, a baller and can afford to? Or do they get reg. raises that are inline with their peers? If I had to guess, I think his maid must be a millionaire by now with that logic.

EVERYONE wants to make more money. Just because your boss is a baller it doesn't mean he owes the same to his staff, especially when a contract outlining pay was agreed upon and signed by both parties.

As long as Zuffa is paying better than anyone else, offers better benefits and bonuses, provides insurance that none of their "competitors" do, as well as ensures an even playing field via drug testing 100% of their athletes, they are doing MORE (and better than ) than the rest so I don't see the heartburn, really. Wah!

 

Cindy


as well as ensures an even playing field via drug testing 100% of their athletes,

I'm sorry did the ufc recently implement random 24/7/365 drug testing that I am not aware of?  Did they agree to do the best testing available? Oh they didn't? Oh you're saying 'but, but, but the government regulates them!" Oh well then...

 


LOL@ you!! EVERY athlete on EVERY card in EVERY country is tested if they're in the UFC. The ACs don't require 100%. And the UFC pays for it. Its not fair to compete on a professional level and NOT be tested... EVERYONE. Do you disagree?

 

Cindy


The ufc refuses to implement the drug testing required for there to be a level playing field. that drug testing would need to be 24/7/365 random and they would have to test for stuff like HGH and synthetic test and EPO. 

now why the random testing and the actual testing they do is important. the more expensive PEDs like HGH, Test, and EPO are much harder to catch. special testing is required which the UFC refuses to pay for. right now the fighters who earn the most money have the ability to purchase these drugs and because of the testing it is unlikely they will get caught. because of this, the playing field is not level. 

7/2/13 10:48 PM
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daba
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this.
7/2/13 11:08 PM
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CindyO
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Whambo - 
CindyO - 
BeatonHauff -  The worst players in any professional sports are making a decent living, I bet NFL kickers make more in a year then the top ufc fighters make in a year, and don't have nearly the amount of expenses. Is it even possible to make a living fighting for 12 grand every couple months after taxes, managers fees, gym fees? Imagine trying to plan for your future with no retirement or pension plan, and not being able to save money I'm not saying they can afford to do both, but when Dana brags about losing a million dollars in one night gambling, and you have lower level fighters that would never be able to get by without a second job, it makes the situation laughable, the UFC is suppose to be the big leagues. And stop fucking bring up bellator, it's about the UFC. Phone Post

Should millionaire actors pay their staff substantially more than their peers doing the same thing make just because they can "afford" to? When Gates gets a fat check does he spread the wealth to his workers just because he is a nice guy, a baller and can afford to? Or do they get reg. raises that are inline with their peers? If I had to guess, I think his maid must be a millionaire by now with that logic.

EVERYONE wants to make more money. Just because your boss is a baller it doesn't mean he owes the same to his staff, especially when a contract outlining pay was agreed upon and signed by both parties.

As long as Zuffa is paying better than anyone else, offers better benefits and bonuses, provides insurance that none of their "competitors" do, as well as ensures an even playing field via drug testing 100% of their athletes, they are doing MORE (and better than ) than the rest so I don't see the heartburn, really. Wah!

 

Cindy


MMA isn't a perfect competition model, therefore the few companies (one in particular) hold a ton of power over the market place in terms of what they can charge and what they can pay employees.

The fact that you don't associate the UFC doing well with an incentive to increase the fighters pay should be told to every single fighter employed by Zuffa. Keep preaching it Cindy, and I want Dana to come on here and state he agrees with that because it's gonna get this sport unionized that much faster. This is why the big 4 sports unions fight tooth and nail for revenue sharing.


Zuffa/UFC is a BUSINESS. These guys are contractors not employees and they negotiated and agreed to specific dollar amounts to compete in/for the UFC. They had representation. They would be paid no matter what. The show could lose millions and they'd never know because it doesn't impact their rate (purse and win). They don't lose a single cent.

On top of those agreed upon rates, the UFC pays them THOUSANDS more in discretionary performance based bonuses for leaving it all in the cage. And of those great performances, 4 fighters will get another $50 in OTN bonuses. These contractors are wwwwwwwwwwell taken care of, no? SO MUCH above and beyond what EVERY other promoter in the history of MMA (and probably well beyond other pro sports) can begin to offer. They're getting paid.

Oh, now add to it that the UFC also pays 100% of the premimums for a medical insurance policy so their guys can be the best they can be in treating injuries during training. This is HUGE and no one else does it. Outstanding.

So to be crystal clear, I see absolutely zero reason to compensate them even more just because they UFC does well because they aren't in business together. They are not owners. They didn't invest a single penny in the UFC. They didn't negotiate a profit-sharing clause in their contracts.They do not take hits when Zuffa doesn't do well and their contractual increases are honored with a smile. They are not financially impacted in any way.  They don't take less when there's less so why should they get more when three's more?

The Zuffa machine generated the revenue, which they are a part of, and if a fighter is entitled to a portion contractually, he gets it with a smmmmile! I can't think of a single instance where a fighter has ever even said he didn't get anything he was entitled to contractually, but I can think of a ton who have expressed gratitude in the media for having gotten waaaaay more. And the things they do behind the scenes for a lllllllllot of these guys and their families are beyond compare. They are treated with respect and very well, IMO. There are very few instances where that has not been the case and its hammered out.  These guys don't go above and beyond what they contractually agree to do but Zuffa does. Hell NO they aren't entitled to more when they didn't do more.

Not sure why you think even a single fighter on the UFCs roster gives a shit about my opinion coincerning ANYTHING. If they're obsessing about a screen name on the UG instead of training well, I just don't know what to say. I don't work for the UFC or anyone associated with any of them so LOL@ anything I have to say being important=)

 

Cindy

7/2/13 11:08 PM
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CindyO
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SmackyBear - Not getting into the Cindy-Mace debate on either side, but I did wonder what Zuffa's EBITDA was after a previous thread where Mace estimated one thing, and I thought it was less. So I looked at the most recent stuff from rating agencies that I didn't have to spend money to get.

According to Moody's, who do credit ratings:

"the company's debt-to-EBITDA leverage (including Moody's standard adjustments) increased to 4.6x at year end 2012 from 3.3x in 2011"

http://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-assigns-Ba3-rating-to-Zuffas-Ba3-CFR-new-bank--PR_265693

It's been a long time since college, so if someone has done this more recently than I have, feel free to step in.

EBITDA is one measure of profit from operations. It's an acronym for Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization.

Since we know:

debt = 4.6xEBITDA

EBITDA = debt/4.6

If I remember correctly, which might be a big if, GAAP says a credit revolver is only a liability in the amount it's drawn down. So their debt would be $450M if the revolver is full and $510M if it's empty.

So if debt was $450M, EBITDA was ?$98M.

If the revolver was drawn down, debt was $510M, and EBITDA was ?$111M.

Now you're just making up words:)

 

Cindy

7/2/13 11:20 PM
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CindyO
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willyboy - Not sure if brought up yet, but, what about the guys that have been in a the ufc while and already have 15/15 contracts? Now some new kid starting out is making the same? Is that fair? So I guess they get a raise to 25/25? and the guys who already make 25/25 go up to 50/50?And on and on up the ladder. Phone Post 3.0

Voted up for bringing something new and thought provoking to the thread! Everyone else should do the same!

 

Cindy

7/2/13 11:26 PM
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CindyO
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smoogy - 

If you read the comments Dana made it's pretty clear he is NOT in favor of giving lower fighter raises and is only talking about cutting performance bonuses as a scare tactic to change the conversation toward the trivial, as he tends to do. It's a really disingenuous way of addressing all the recent talk about fighter purses in UFC being so low.

Keep in mind that people like CindyO are 100% aware of this and continue to lard threads like this with her garbage talking points anyway. Once UFC is set on a message, people like her and MMALogic just seek to spread that message as much as they can, knowing what kind of stupifying effect it has on genuine debate.


Nnnnnope, try again. Haven't talked about about shit like this in a while. To me, contracts are contracts. If one wasn't breached kindly STFU and honor it, no?

 

Cindy

7/2/13 11:28 PM
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CindyO
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FeardBucker - 
Sliva_Plated_Fedor - Currently, watching the fighters ask if they won FOTN or KOTN bonus on Dana's vlogs is like watching starving dogs beg for scraps.

The UFC is making more than enough to leave the bonuses as is and increase base pay. If they weren't, they'd disclose the revenue Vs fighter pay figures instead of hiding behind "we're a private company" slogan.

Do you really think that if fighter pay was even remotely close to 50% of the take for an event Dana wouldn't be screaming it from the rooftops??? "Fuck you goof, we pay out X% of our revenue to fighters"

I would be astounded if fighter pay made up 20% of revenue for any event in the past 3 years. Zuffa could easily get an independent accounting firm in to calculate this and publish this without disclosing any other financial info. Phone Post 3.0
You post your pay stubs and w-2 on the forum then you can have the tight to cry about someone else's. It's not your business. You have absolutely no right to their finances. Phone Post

VTFU!

 

Cindy

7/2/13 11:29 PM
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CindyO
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whitejoe - 
KingofBJJ -
daba - 
CindyO -
BeatonHauff -  The worst players in any professional sports are making a decent living, I bet NFL kickers make more in a year then the top ufc fighters make in a year, and don't have nearly the amount of expenses. Is it even possible to make a living fighting for 12 grand every couple months after taxes, managers fees, gym fees? Imagine trying to plan for your future with no retirement or pension plan, and not being able to save money I'm not saying they can afford to do both, but when Dana brags about losing a million dollars in one night gambling, and you have lower level fighters that would never be able to get by without a second job, it makes the situation laughable, the UFC is suppose to be the big leagues. And stop fucking bring up bellator, it's about the UFC. Phone Post

Should millionaire actors pay their staff substantially more than their peers doing the same thing make just because they can "afford" to? When Gates gets a fat check does he spread the wealth to his workers just because he is a nice guy, a baller and can afford to? Or do they get reg. raises that are inline with their peers? If I had to guess, I think his maid must be a millionaire by now with that logic.

EVERYONE wants to make more money. Just because your boss is a baller it doesn't mean he owes the same to his staff, especially when a contract outlining pay was agreed upon and signed by both parties.

As long as Zuffa is paying better than anyone else, offers better benefits and bonuses, provides insurance that none of their "competitors" do, as well as ensures an even playing field via drug testing 100% of their athletes, they are doing MORE (and better than ) than the rest so I don't see the heartburn, really. Wah!

 

Cindy

Your Bill Gates argument is terrible.

At companies like Microsoft, Intel, Facebook, etc. employees were rewarded when their companies exploded in growth. In some cases the lowest paid employees like office assistants became millionaires because they had shares and options in the company.

When those companies grew the employees shared in the wealth. Phone Post 3.0

I was going to reply to that blatantly ridiculous argument, but you beat me to it.

Lmfaoooo

UFC is hella cheap Cindy cmon. Phone Post

LOL! *hugs yall*

 

Cindy


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