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7/2/13 2:36 AM
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CindyO
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This.  

Dana & Lorenzo discussing doing this to look magnanimous.  The fact is they can easily do BOTH!    


I suppose they can but this is no chump change. They put on 33 events, at their current 50K bonus, thats 6 mil 600k extra to share.

$6.6 million is chump change to a company that makes over $500 million in revenue.


Unless you have some idea as to the yearly expenses, don't make assumptions.

Dana recently said the Boston problem has been taken care of, the foreign fighters will be able to fight. The UFC has an office whose main job is to deal with visas, work papers and whatnot. The company employs 400 people, the majority of which are not $10 an hour people, they are highly skilled and often among the best at what they do.

Revenue does not equal profits.

Fighter pay should continue to improve, but I don't think the UFC has quite the profit level that some seem to think.

At $100,000 per employee (which is way high), you are at $40 million in employee costs. 

How much do you think the staff costs? 

We have a very good idea as to the revenue--they themselves state it is over $500 million. 

It is far from impossible to get a very good idea as to the other expenses as well. 

 

That said, this is a good move.  Pay should be guarantied base. 


Mace, what are their expenses? Do you have a breakdown of what it cost to run this well oiled machine? That might help to determine what tney net. Maybe just even ONE event example? You pick the event and tell us how it all shakes out. These guesses aren't very effective, are they?

 

Cindy

7/2/13 2:41 AM
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Macedawgg
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Nah, not going to do your dance Cindy O.  Unless the data was signed by Dana and Lorenzo, you wouldn't accept it anyway, would you?

Yes, I have a very good idea. 

7/2/13 2:42 AM
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Macedawgg
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I always enjoy the part where everyone assumes they know that the UFC can afford to do both.

What is the proof?

Affliction could do both! Pride could do both! Strikeforce could do both!

Funny thing is we know for a fact that Viacom can do both. They can also afford health insurance . Fuck I bet their entry level office staff gets health insurance. They pay less, they have no insurance, but the complaining fans only bug the UFC over pay somehow. At the same time they defend them over the Alvarez thing as "just business."

 

 

And VTFU;)

 

Cindy


We do however have a very good idea what Bellator is making, don't we Cindy O? 

Is Bellator making money?

7/2/13 2:43 AM
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Macedawgg
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Mike_in_CA - "The UFC is in the neighborhood of the major professional sports in terms of payout percentages compared to revenue generated in the same way as I am in the 'neighborhood' of challenging for Anderson Silva's middleweight title," Maysey said.

After examining pay-per-view numbers, live gate proceeds
and other revenue streams, Maysey estimates the UFC has annual revenues between $350 million and $450 million.

Yet the median per fight income for fighters remains low, between $17,000 and $23,000, figures he said he obtained from his many conversations with current fighters.


http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/UFCpay/ufc-fighters-say-low-pay-most-painful-hit-all

Yup--those quotes, from memory, were given in July of 2011. 

Those figures have increased. 

7/2/13 2:44 AM
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CindyO
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Sliva_Plated_Fedor - Currently, watching the fighters ask if they won FOTN or KOTN bonus on Dana's vlogs is like watching starving dogs beg for scraps.

The UFC is making more than enough to leave the bonuses as is and increase base pay. If they weren't, they'd disclose the revenue Vs fighter pay figures instead of hiding behind "we're a private company" slogan.

Do you really think that if fighter pay was even remotely close to 50% of the take for an event Dana wouldn't be screaming it from the rooftops??? "Fuck you goof, we pay out X% of our revenue to fighters"

I would be astounded if fighter pay made up 20% of revenue for any event in the past 3 years. Zuffa could easily get an independent accounting firm in to calculate this and publish this without disclosing any other financial info. Phone Post 3.0

Viacom specifically got into the MMA business by buying majority ownership in Bellator so they could call the shots. How much can Viacom afford to pay THEIR athletes?

 

Cindy

7/2/13 2:48 AM
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CindyO
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Mike_in_CA - "The UFC is in the neighborhood of the major professional sports in terms of payout percentages compared to revenue generated in the same way as I am in the 'neighborhood' of challenging for Anderson Silva's middleweight title," Maysey said.

After examining pay-per-view numbers, live gate proceeds
and other revenue streams, Maysey estimates the UFC has annual revenues between $350 million and $450 million.

Yet the median per fight income for fighters remains low, between $17,000 and $23,000, figures he said he obtained from his many conversations with current fighters.


http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/UFCpay/ufc-fighters-say-low-pay-most-painful-hit-all

Would lllllove to see Mace's documentation of these figures and actual expenses instead of just "estimations" of revenue because we all know revenue generated is NOT profit.

 

Cindy

7/2/13 2:52 AM
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Macedawgg
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The figures have been reported in multiple sources Cindy O.  Go to google, type in "UFC $500 million" or "annual revenue" or "half a billion."  You will find them.  Chump sources like Fast Company, Bloomberg, Fortune--small fry like that. 

As to "profit"--ALL the other sports pay on gross figures Cindy-O--not net. 

7/2/13 2:52 AM
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CindyO
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Macedawgg - 

Nah, not going to do your dance Cindy O.  Unless the data was signed by Dana and Lorenzo, you wouldn't accept it anyway, would you?

Yes, I have a very good idea. 


Source(s) Mace! I have asked you numerous times over the past 2 years and you have NNNNNNNNNEVER provided anything. This is the UG son. Source or GTFO, no?

 

Cindy

7/2/13 2:55 AM
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McCorkledbyMartialArtsMixed
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This.  

Dana & Lorenzo discussing doing this to look magnanimous.  The fact is they can easily do BOTH!    


I suppose they can but this is no chump change. They put on 33 events, at their current 50K bonus, thats 6 mil 600k extra to share.

$6.6 million is chump change to a company that makes over $500 million in revenue.


Unless you have some idea as to the yearly expenses, don't make assumptions.

Dana recently said the Boston problem has been taken care of, the foreign fighters will be able to fight. The UFC has an office whose main job is to deal with visas, work papers and whatnot. The company employs 400 people, the majority of which are not $10 an hour people, they are highly skilled and often among the best at what they do.

Revenue does not equal profits.

Fighter pay should continue to improve, but I don't think the UFC has quite the profit level that some seem to think.

At $100,000 per employee (which is way high), you are at $40 million in employee costs. 

How much do you think the staff costs? 

We have a very good idea as to the revenue--they themselves state it is over $500 million. 

It is far from impossible to get a very good idea as to the other expenses as well. 

 

That said, this is a good move.  Pay should be guarantied base. 


Mace, what are their expenses? Do you have a breakdown of what it cost to run this well oiled machine? That might help to determine what tney net. Maybe just even ONE event example? You pick the event and tell us how it all shakes out. These guesses aren't very effective, are they?

 

Cindy


He will just pull numbers out of his ass because he knows some promoters and industry insiders hahaha.

Btw, I support the upwards direction of fighter pay and hope it continues. A finish bonus pool sounds like a sick idea. Definitely lessen the OTn stuff. Fighter minimum pay is higher than ever and I think we will see it continue to improve. The more legit completion for the UFC, the higher the fighter pay will be.
7/2/13 2:57 AM
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CindyO
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I always enjoy the part where everyone assumes they know that the UFC can afford to do both.

What is the proof?

Affliction could do both! Pride could do both! Strikeforce could do both!

Funny thing is we know for a fact that Viacom can do both. They can also afford health insurance . Fuck I bet their entry level office staff gets health insurance. They pay less, they have no insurance, but the complaining fans only bug the UFC over pay somehow. At the same time they defend them over the Alvarez thing as "just business."

 

 

And VTFU;)

 

Cindy


We do however have a very good idea what Bellator is making, don't we Cindy O? 

Is Bellator making money?


If folks can throw around DW and the Brotitta's for their spending instead of taking care of their fighters then how come the 50% owners of Bellator get a pass? I mean, we ARE talking about who can afford what and Viacom CRUSHES Zuffa money, huh?

To grow the sport you must invest in your promotion not run it like the athletes are cheap whores trying to make their way off of welfare. Viacom should be doing better, because they can afford to, period, IMO of course... not yours.

 

Cindy

7/2/13 2:58 AM
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Macedawgg
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Yes, yes--that is exactly what this board said when I said revenues were $400 million. . .

Turns out, they are now $500 million.  . .

Guess I wasn't just pulling out my ass, afterall. 

The board said the same thing--it was amusing, when I called the UFC a Billion Dollar Company--well before the Wall Street Journal did the same. 

7/2/13 2:59 AM
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Macedawgg
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Also the same thing this board said when I said repeatedly, the athletes are extremely disgruntled by their pay. . .

Maysey just talking out his ass. . .

Yup--just talking out my ass, and been right, over and over. 

Just lucky, I guess.

7/2/13 2:59 AM
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McCorkledbyMartialArtsMixed
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Completion = competition lol autocorrect
7/2/13 3:00 AM
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Macedawgg
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I always enjoy the part where everyone assumes they know that the UFC can afford to do both.

What is the proof?

Affliction could do both! Pride could do both! Strikeforce could do both!

Funny thing is we know for a fact that Viacom can do both. They can also afford health insurance . Fuck I bet their entry level office staff gets health insurance. They pay less, they have no insurance, but the complaining fans only bug the UFC over pay somehow. At the same time they defend them over the Alvarez thing as "just business."

 

 

And VTFU;)

 

Cindy


We do however have a very good idea what Bellator is making, don't we Cindy O? 

Is Bellator making money?


If folks can throw around DW and the Brotitta's for their spending instead of taking care of their fighters then how come the 50% owners of Bellator get a pass? I mean, we ARE talking about who can afford what and Viacom CRUSHES Zuffa money, huh?

To grow the sport you must invest in your promotion not run it like the athletes are cheap whores trying to make their way off of welfare. Viacom should be doing better, because they can afford to, period, IMO of course... not yours.

 

Cindy


I don't partake in how Dana or Lorenzo spend their funds. 

That said, Dana and Lorenzo have also, between them, taken hundreds of millions of dollars out of Zuffa (the UFC)--not independent businesses. 

So Viacom really isn't comparable--is it, since Bellator does not make money.

7/2/13 3:01 AM
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CindyO
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Wonkamaster - Like they can't afford to do both? Lol.

This.  

Dana & Lorenzo discussing doing this to look magnanimous.  The fact is they can easily do BOTH!    


I suppose they can but this is no chump change. They put on 33 events, at their current 50K bonus, thats 6 mil 600k extra to share.

$6.6 million is chump change to a company that makes over $500 million in revenue.


Unless you have some idea as to the yearly expenses, don't make assumptions.

Dana recently said the Boston problem has been taken care of, the foreign fighters will be able to fight. The UFC has an office whose main job is to deal with visas, work papers and whatnot. The company employs 400 people, the majority of which are not $10 an hour people, they are highly skilled and often among the best at what they do.

Revenue does not equal profits.

Fighter pay should continue to improve, but I don't think the UFC has quite the profit level that some seem to think.

Lorenzo told me that when they do events around 1,000 people get checks and a lot goes into  planning an event from its inception, pre-promotion, press conferences, media, marketing, bout agreements, transportation, accommodations, travel, arena, etc, etc, etc. From start to finish its a beast. Would lllllllllllove for epwar to take a stab at estimating/giving a breakdown of event expenses instead of always preaching "rrrrrevenue, revenue, revenue" as if its profit:)

 

Cindy


Since you're so close to Dana and Lorenzo please ask them if they paid themselves $269 million in 2 special dividend payments as estimated by Moodys and Deutsche Bank. Please also ask them if they really made $100 mil to $200 mil from the sale of 10% of the company to Flash Entertainment, And please, please ask them if they really had an EBITDA of 40% in 2007 and 2011 and made over $200 mil in profits from those two years alone. If you could get them to confirm or to correct those numbers that would go a long way to trying to determine if fighters are getting the short end of the stick or not.

I'll ask them what they did with their money if you ask Viacom why they aren't using theirs to advance Bellator to a level where the guys can make enough to train full-time, have insurance, as well as drug test their guys (100% like the UFC and WSOF with their 100k gates do) to ensure an even playing field. Deal???

 

Cindy

7/2/13 3:03 AM
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CindyO
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Macedawgg - 

The figures have been reported in multiple sources Cindy O.  Go to google, type in "UFC $500 million" or "annual revenue" or "half a billion."  You will find them.  Chump sources like Fast Company, Bloomberg, Fortune--small fry like that. 

As to "profit"--ALL the other sports pay on gross figures Cindy-O--not net. 


But NNNNNNNNONE of the other sports are MMA. Different business models, no?

 

Cindy

7/2/13 3:08 AM
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CindyO
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Macedawgg - 

Yes, yes--that is exactly what this board said when I said revenues were $400 million. . .

Turns out, they are now $500 million.  . .

Guess I wasn't just pulling out my ass, afterall. 

The board said the same thing--it was amusing, when I called the UFC a Billion Dollar Company--well before the Wall Street Journal did the same. 


So are you going to be getting to their EXPENSES any time soon? I'm sleepy but wanna stick it out if you have something to share. So do you? Yes or no?

 

Cindy

7/2/13 3:11 AM
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Macedawgg
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Macedawgg - 

Yes, yes--that is exactly what this board said when I said revenues were $400 million. . .

Turns out, they are now $500 million.  . .

Guess I wasn't just pulling out my ass, afterall. 

The board said the same thing--it was amusing, when I called the UFC a Billion Dollar Company--well before the Wall Street Journal did the same. 


So are you going to be getting to their EXPENSES any time soon? I'm sleepy but wanna stick it out if you have something to share. So do you? Yes or no?

 

Cindy


I already told you no.  Unless they are certified by Dana and Lorenzo personally, you will claim they are bogus, followed by "Maysey pulling out his ass."

I'll save you the time--just assume I'm pulling out my ass (yet, with remarkable accuracy). 

7/2/13 3:13 AM
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CindyO
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I always enjoy the part where everyone assumes they know that the UFC can afford to do both.

What is the proof?

Affliction could do both! Pride could do both! Strikeforce could do both!

Funny thing is we know for a fact that Viacom can do both. They can also afford health insurance . Fuck I bet their entry level office staff gets health insurance. They pay less, they have no insurance, but the complaining fans only bug the UFC over pay somehow. At the same time they defend them over the Alvarez thing as "just business."

 

 

And VTFU;)

 

Cindy


We do however have a very good idea what Bellator is making, don't we Cindy O? 

Is Bellator making money?


If folks can throw around DW and the Brotitta's for their spending instead of taking care of their fighters then how come the 50% owners of Bellator get a pass? I mean, we ARE talking about who can afford what and Viacom CRUSHES Zuffa money, huh?

To grow the sport you must invest in your promotion not run it like the athletes are cheap whores trying to make their way off of welfare. Viacom should be doing better, because they can afford to, period, IMO of course... not yours.

 

Cindy


I don't partake in how Dana or Lorenzo spend their funds. 

That said, Dana and Lorenzo have also, between them, taken hundreds of millions of dollars out of Zuffa (the UFC)--not independent businesses. 

So Viacom really isn't comparable--is it, since Bellator does not make money.


Mace, can Viacom afford to do better for the athletes in the promotion they own 50% of??? Yes or no?

Zuffa invested in their promotion and Lorenzo covered payroll mmmmmany times because the UFC wasn't making money from 2001 until after TUF (after 4th or 5th season maybe?) really took off... so how come Viacom shouldn't do the same for their guys? Shit just ain't fair, huh?

 

Cindy

7/2/13 3:16 AM
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BeatonHauff
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The worst players in any professional sports are making a decent living, I bet NFL kickers make more in a year then the top ufc fighters make in a year, and don't have nearly the amount of expenses. Is it even possible to make a living fighting for 12 grand every couple months after taxes, managers fees, gym fees? Imagine trying to plan for your future with no retirement or pension plan, and not being able to save money I'm not saying they can afford to do both, but when Dana brags about losing a million dollars in one night gambling, and you have lower level fighters that would never be able to get by without a second job, it makes the situation laughable, the UFC is suppose to be the big leagues. And stop fucking bring up bellator, it's about the UFC. Phone Post
7/2/13 3:17 AM
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CindyO
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epwar - 
Wonkamaster - Like they can't afford to do both? Lol.

This.  

Dana & Lorenzo discussing doing this to look magnanimous.  The fact is they can easily do BOTH!    


I suppose they can but this is no chump change. They put on 33 events, at their current 50K bonus, thats 6 mil 600k extra to share.

$6.6 million is chump change to a company that makes over $500 million in revenue.


Unless you have some idea as to the yearly expenses, don't make assumptions.

Dana recently said the Boston problem has been taken care of, the foreign fighters will be able to fight. The UFC has an office whose main job is to deal with visas, work papers and whatnot. The company employs 400 people, the majority of which are not $10 an hour people, they are highly skilled and often among the best at what they do.

Revenue does not equal profits.

Fighter pay should continue to improve, but I don't think the UFC has quite the profit level that some seem to think.

Lorenzo told me that when they do events around 1,000 people get checks and a lot goes into  planning an event from its inception, pre-promotion, press conferences, media, marketing, bout agreements, transportation, accommodations, travel, arena, etc, etc, etc. From start to finish its a beast. Would lllllllllllove for epwar to take a stab at estimating/giving a breakdown of event expenses instead of always preaching "rrrrrevenue, revenue, revenue" as if its profit:)

 

Cindy


Since you're so close to Dana and Lorenzo please ask them if they paid themselves $269 million in 2 special dividend payments as estimated by Moodys and Deutsche Bank. Please also ask them if they really made $100 mil to $200 mil from the sale of 10% of the company to Flash Entertainment, And please, please ask them if they really had an EBITDA of 40% in 2007 and 2011 and made over $200 mil in profits from those two years alone. If you could get them to confirm or to correct those numbers that would go a long way to trying to determine if fighters are getting the short end of the stick or not.

I'll ask them what they did with their money if you ask Viacom why they aren't using theirs to advance Bellator to a level where the guys can make enough to train full-time, have insurance, as well as drug test their guys (100% like the UFC and WSOF with their 100k gates do) to ensure an even playing field. Deal???

 

Cindy


What does asking Bellator to do more, which we should anyway, have to do with asking more of the biggest, most powerful promotion in the sport? Is that the standard we should hold the UFC to? that they at least do more than a second rate promotion that makes a fraction what the UFC does on gate, tv, sponsors, merchandize, or ppv? Seems like a mighty low bar.

Oh, I didn't realize you had Zuffa's financial info to know what their revenue is as well as their expenses, which is how you would determine their profits! Dude, you gotta share that info because it makes all the difference in the world! Can you PM it to me? Thanks.

 

Cindy

7/2/13 3:18 AM
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Macedawgg
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I'll defer to Mr. Whipple's post which addresses this issue, quite well. 

7/2/13 3:19 AM
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CindyO
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Yes, yes--that is exactly what this board said when I said revenues were $400 million. . .

Turns out, they are now $500 million.  . .

Guess I wasn't just pulling out my ass, afterall. 

The board said the same thing--it was amusing, when I called the UFC a Billion Dollar Company--well before the Wall Street Journal did the same. 


So are you going to be getting to their EXPENSES any time soon? I'm sleepy but wanna stick it out if you have something to share. So do you? Yes or no?

 

Cindy


I already told you no.  Unless they are certified by Dana and Lorenzo personally, you will claim they are bogus, followed by "Maysey pulling out his ass."

I'll save you the time--just assume I'm pulling out my ass (yet, with remarkable accuracy). 


You KNOW you're my boy therefore I will be open-minded with your research. And I never said you were pulling figures out of your ass so don't put that on me. PM me what you have and I just might see the light=)

 

Cindy

7/2/13 3:22 AM
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Macedawgg
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Hahaha! 

Good stuff Cindy-O. 

7/2/13 3:28 AM
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fasthandssam
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I don't know- I really like the OTN bonuses! Maybe cut them in half, and create a flat "finish" bonus that every fighter can earn. Like an extra 8k on top of your win bonus if you also finish. I think that would benefit the guys at the bottom, and provide even more incentive to keep things lively.

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