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UnderGround Forums >> UFC considers removing bonuses to pay for...


7/2/13 3:43 AM
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Chiron
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stack321style -  Less incentive to go for broke means more fighting not to lose instead of fun fighting to win Phone Post

Exactly. Dropping incentive pay to raise base pay is only going to result in more pointfighting, which means more lackluster and controversial fights. Which may also hinder the growth of the sport and a slower increase in fighter pay right along with it. It would be a very bad idea.
7/2/13 3:44 AM
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daba
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CindyO -
BeatonHauff -  The worst players in any professional sports are making a decent living, I bet NFL kickers make more in a year then the top ufc fighters make in a year, and don't have nearly the amount of expenses. Is it even possible to make a living fighting for 12 grand every couple months after taxes, managers fees, gym fees? Imagine trying to plan for your future with no retirement or pension plan, and not being able to save money I'm not saying they can afford to do both, but when Dana brags about losing a million dollars in one night gambling, and you have lower level fighters that would never be able to get by without a second job, it makes the situation laughable, the UFC is suppose to be the big leagues. And stop fucking bring up bellator, it's about the UFC. Phone Post

Should millionaire actors pay their staff substantially more than their peers doing the same thing make just because they can "afford" to? When Gates gets a fat check does he spread the wealth to his workers just because he is a nice guy, a baller and can afford to? Or do they get reg. raises that are inline with their peers? If I had to guess, I think his maid must be a millionaire by now with that logic.

EVERYONE wants to make more money. Just because your boss is a baller it doesn't mean he owes the same to his staff, especially when a contract outlining pay was agreed upon and signed by both parties.

As long as Zuffa is paying better than anyone else, offers better benefits and bonuses, provides insurance that none of their "competitors" do, as well as ensures an even playing field via drug testing 100% of their athletes, they are doing MORE (and better than ) than the rest so I don't see the heartburn, really. Wah!

 

Cindy

Your Bill Gates argument is terrible.

At companies like Microsoft, Intel, Facebook, etc. employees were rewarded when their companies exploded in growth. In some cases the lowest paid employees like office assistants became millionaires because they had shares and options in the company.

When those companies grew the employees shared in the wealth. Phone Post 3.0
7/2/13 3:47 AM
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Chiron
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RicGillespie - Put all the bonus money into one big pool and split it up for every fighter on the card that has a finish.

I like that idea better. That would definitely be a better way to do it than to ditch the bonuses entirely.
7/2/13 4:29 AM
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CindyO
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Macedawgg - 

We can put this debate to rest once and for all--ask Dana and Lorenzo to open their books.  If the argument is as you say, they should be all to happy to prove their benevolence. 


LMFAO! Yeah, because Lorenzo is going to let a UGer go through the books=) That's why I'm asking YOU! What's stopping you from PMing me since you claim to "know" what's up????????????????????????????????????

 

Cindy

7/2/13 4:31 AM
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in before 11er
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cant wait until i can V cindy TFD..
7/2/13 4:31 AM
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CindyO
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daba - 
CindyO -
BeatonHauff -  The worst players in any professional sports are making a decent living, I bet NFL kickers make more in a year then the top ufc fighters make in a year, and don't have nearly the amount of expenses. Is it even possible to make a living fighting for 12 grand every couple months after taxes, managers fees, gym fees? Imagine trying to plan for your future with no retirement or pension plan, and not being able to save money I'm not saying they can afford to do both, but when Dana brags about losing a million dollars in one night gambling, and you have lower level fighters that would never be able to get by without a second job, it makes the situation laughable, the UFC is suppose to be the big leagues. And stop fucking bring up bellator, it's about the UFC. Phone Post

Should millionaire actors pay their staff substantially more than their peers doing the same thing make just because they can "afford" to? When Gates gets a fat check does he spread the wealth to his workers just because he is a nice guy, a baller and can afford to? Or do they get reg. raises that are inline with their peers? If I had to guess, I think his maid must be a millionaire by now with that logic.

EVERYONE wants to make more money. Just because your boss is a baller it doesn't mean he owes the same to his staff, especially when a contract outlining pay was agreed upon and signed by both parties.

As long as Zuffa is paying better than anyone else, offers better benefits and bonuses, provides insurance that none of their "competitors" do, as well as ensures an even playing field via drug testing 100% of their athletes, they are doing MORE (and better than ) than the rest so I don't see the heartburn, really. Wah!

 

Cindy

Your Bill Gates argument is terrible.

At companies like Microsoft, Intel, Facebook, etc. employees were rewarded when their companies exploded in growth. In some cases the lowest paid employees like office assistants became millionaires because they had shares and options in the company.

When those companies grew the employees shared in the wealth. Phone Post 3.0

Can you tell me that story or post a link? Sounds like a great read. Thanks:)

 

Cindy

7/2/13 4:36 AM
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CindyO
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mrwhipple - "Oh, I didn't realize you had Zuffa's financial info to know what their revenue is as well as their expenses, which is how you would determine their profits! Dude, you gotta share that info because it makes all the difference in the world! Can you PM it to me? Thanks.

Cindy"

No, I am only going off what has been said or released.

First are you arguing that they are not a vastly bigger promotion than Bellator? That they don't have much larger revenue on tv deals, advertising, gate, merchandize, and ppv?

Secondly, is Dana and the Fertittas lying when they tell Fastcomany that the UFC brings in close to $600 million in revenue a year or when they say it worth more than $2 billion? Hard to imagine a company going from $2 million to $2 billion in 12 years if was barely squeaking by.

Third, is Moodys wrong when it reports that several times its EBITDA has been 40%? If that's is accurate why should we assume that not making any profit, especially when ppv sales alone have been north of $200 mil a year since 2006.

I;m not saying that the owners of Zuffa are actually doing anything wrong. They own a company and they are trying to make as much as possible off it,. But why are people so intent on pretending that they haven't been successful at that endeavor? That they aren't actually make truckloads of money?

I don't deny their success and neither does anyone else. The problem is folks who claim to "know" on this board don't "know" the basic concept of revenue vs profit, therefore it makes their point nothing more than a guess. Do YOU know the rev vs profit figures? You could put this whole debate to rest and we'd alllllll vote you UP for the effort=)

 

Cindy

7/2/13 4:37 AM
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CindyO
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in before 11er - cant wait until i can V cindy TFD..

LMFAO!!!

 

Cindy

7/2/13 4:40 AM
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Team GDP
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CindyO - 
BeatonHauff -  The worst players in any professional sports are making a decent living, I bet NFL kickers make more in a year then the top ufc fighters make in a year, and don't have nearly the amount of expenses. Is it even possible to make a living fighting for 12 grand every couple months after taxes, managers fees, gym fees? Imagine trying to plan for your future with no retirement or pension plan, and not being able to save money I'm not saying they can afford to do both, but when Dana brags about losing a million dollars in one night gambling, and you have lower level fighters that would never be able to get by without a second job, it makes the situation laughable, the UFC is suppose to be the big leagues. And stop fucking bring up bellator, it's about the UFC. Phone Post

Should millionaire actors pay their staff substantially more than their peers doing the same thing make just because they can "afford" to? When Gates gets a fat check does he spread the wealth to his workers just because he is a nice guy, a baller and can afford to? Or do they get reg. raises that are inline with their peers? If I had to guess, I think his maid must be a millionaire by now with that logic.

EVERYONE wants to make more money. Just because your boss is a baller it doesn't mean he owes the same to his staff, especially when a contract outlining pay was agreed upon and signed by both parties.

As long as Zuffa is paying better than anyone else, offers better benefits and bonuses, provides insurance that none of their "competitors" do, as well as ensures an even playing field via drug testing 100% of their athletes, they are doing MORE (and better than ) than the rest so I don't see the heartburn, really. Wah!

 

Cindy


as well as ensures an even playing field via drug testing 100% of their athletes,

I'm sorry did the ufc recently implement random 24/7/365 drug testing that I am not aware of?  Did they agree to do the best testing available? Oh they didn't? Oh you're saying 'but, but, but the government regulates them!" Oh well then...

 

7/2/13 4:43 AM
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Larry Appleton
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Finish bonuses (KO, TKO, or Sub) Phone Post 3.0
7/2/13 4:48 AM
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Larry Appleton
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Chiron -
RicGillespie - Put all the bonus money into one big pool and split it up for every fighter on the card that has a finish.

I like that idea better. That would definitely be a better way to do it than to ditch the bonuses entirely.
every card should have a bonus "pool" of 100K, every fighter who wins by finish gets a piece of pool, and "fight of night" gets piece of pool, so that fighter could win 2 pieces of that pie plus his fight salary Phone Post 3.0
7/2/13 6:06 AM
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CHILLITACO
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CLINT NJHC - Well, they asked for it! Can't complain anymore if Dana does this.
They had this coming I guess. Can't give with both hands at the same time.

I bet the fighters ask to keep the bonus system. Phone Post
7/2/13 6:09 AM
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Chromium
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ironyuppie - 
I always enjoy the part where everyone assumes they know that the UFC can afford to do both.

What is the proof?

Affliction could do both! Pride could do both! Strikeforce could do both!

Pride could have easily done both until they lost their television deal.

And Strikeforce and Affliction weren't netting $400-500 million in annual gross revenue. The UFC's gonna have to really dig deep for that extra $7 milion I guess though.

7/2/13 6:13 AM
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The Sultan
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They absolutely can afford to do both. No one said take away the bonuses. That's weak that they went that route.

The UFC isn doing well. They can afford to do both. Dana routinely tips waitresses 10K showing off. He blows money at the strip clubs balling out.

Why don't you look at your lower level guys and "ball out" with them?

Those bonuses help make your cards more exciting. If you increase fighter pay AND keep the bonuses, you can reasonably expect culture and happiness to improve within your organization while simultaneously making your cards more exciting.

Win win for ufc. Phone Post
7/2/13 6:13 AM
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ChaosOverkill
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Great can't wait for the decisions that will be linked to this decision and then they can come back and say "Don't complain, we made the lower fighter pay better!"

7/2/13 6:15 AM
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Tilla
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So the UFC are robbing from Peter to pay Paul? WOW!

7/2/13 6:16 AM
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The Sultan
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Asking for more pay is NOT the same as asking to get rid of bonuses. That's an absolutely ridiculous and silly notion to even suggest. UFC can afford to do both.

I mean, how much money does the UFC need to make? The whole "they asked for it" bullshit is corporate double talk. Phone Post
7/2/13 6:17 AM
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Chromium
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nobones - Hmmm hilarious how everyone here plays accountant. Do people even realize that Zuffa has a $400 million loan payment due this year? Phone Post

Except they don't, Station Casinos does. That has nothing to do with the UFC and they can and will refinance that easily with a restructured loan like most businesses. What's ironic is how much of the money to refinance Station Casino's debt will come from the UFC, when under 5% of that amount would make a huge different for the lower-tier fighters.

If the UFC wants to be taken seriously as a major league sport then they need to pay their minimum wage fighters at least as well as Major League Soccer does. You think the pay issue is going to be confined to websites and message boards like this one when the UFC is finally taken as seriously by the sporting press as the NHL is? Or even close?

7/2/13 6:22 AM
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SmackyBear
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Not getting into the Cindy-Mace debate on either side, but I did wonder what Zuffa's EBITDA was after a previous thread where Mace estimated one thing, and I thought it was less. So I looked at the most recent stuff from rating agencies that I didn't have to spend money to get.

According to Moody's, who do credit ratings:

"the company's debt-to-EBITDA leverage (including Moody's standard adjustments) increased to 4.6x at year end 2012 from 3.3x in 2011"

http://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-assigns-Ba3-rating-to-Zuffas-Ba3-CFR-new-bank--PR_265693

It's been a long time since college, so if someone has done this more recently than I have, feel free to step in.

EBITDA is one measure of profit from operations. It's an acronym for Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization.

Since we know:

debt = 4.6xEBITDA

EBITDA = debt/4.6

If I remember correctly, which might be a big if, GAAP says a credit revolver is only a liability in the amount it's drawn down. So their debt would be $450M if the revolver is full and $510M if it's empty.

So if debt was $450M, EBITDA was ?$98M.

If the revolver was drawn down, debt was $510M, and EBITDA was ?$111M.
7/2/13 6:25 AM
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Macedawgg
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CindyO - 
Macedawgg - 

We can put this debate to rest once and for all--ask Dana and Lorenzo to open their books.  If the argument is as you say, they should be all to happy to prove their benevolence. 


LMFAO! Yeah, because Lorenzo is going to let a UGer go through the books=) That's why I'm asking YOU! What's stopping you from PMing me since you claim to "know" what's up????????????????????????????????????

 

Cindy


I'm sure we can get an accounting firm (not a UG'er) to conduct the audit.  Will they allow that?

And aren't Lorenzo and Dana UG'ers? 

7/2/13 6:25 AM
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Chromium
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mrwhipple - 
LILBROCK - 
Mike_in_CA -  Lets say the UFC does 500 million revenue. At best I would estimate they clear 3 percent profit after taxes. So let's call it 15 million in profit. Now take if they keep the bonuses and increase fighter pay by equal amount ... Say 6 million now we are looking at 9 million in profit. Phone Post

You believe a company estimated at a worth of $2B to only net $15M a year in profit?

Completely unrelated, but the UG thinks they are going to pay Eddie ALvarez $1M per fight, so if he fights 3 times a year, they are expecting to shell out $20% of their annual profits for him.

According the Dave Meltzer's Wrestling Observer financial experts estimate Zuffa will make up to $130 million in profits this year, equally what they made in 2010. This is after you deduct their loan repayments, which they used to pay themselves some huge dividends. In other words I don't think the UFC is squeaking by.

..................this comment really shouldn't be ignored. They could use fucking 10% of that profit and reinvest it in the fighters and do the right thing and end this fucking argument. I knew the UFC was doing very well but that's fucking amazing.

7/2/13 6:28 AM
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SmackyBear
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Wow, double tilde doesn't come out but is replaced by a question mark?

That's rough. Editing on here is insane, so I'm leaving it. But those two question marks should be the symbol for approximately.
7/2/13 6:30 AM
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Nuevo Haole
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Het mace - why did you travel to CA to support legislation that would have ruined MMA in CA?

 

7/2/13 6:32 AM
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Macedawgg
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Nuevo Haole - 

Het mace - why did you travel to CA to support legislation that would have ruined MMA in CA?

 


Because I don't believe it would have ruined MMA in California at all--and I also believe it will be the nationwide standard.  That law will come into effect.

7/2/13 6:45 AM
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Chromium
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Macedawgg - 
Nuevo Haole - 

Het mace - why did you travel to CA to support legislation that would have ruined MMA in CA?

 


Because I don't believe it would have ruined MMA in California at all--and I also believe it will be the nationwide standard.  That law will come into effect.


Just sayin': this is a separate issue and a derail from the topic.


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