UnderGround Forums
 

BJJGround Forum >> Rafa "Friendly" Roll at Seminar


7/7/13 8:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Rival School
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/11/11
Posts: 4213
What would happen if we said something to his face? Phone Post 3.0
7/7/13 9:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GrahamJ
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/11/13
Posts: 873
'I personally feel its a breach of protocol to dive for a heel hook your opening move of your first roll with somebody giving a seminar at your gym.

Just my opinion.'

- TrumpetDan (from the Sherdog thread).
7/7/13 11:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BackAddict347x
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/17/10
Posts: 154
GrahamJ - 'I personally feel its a breach of protocol to dive for a heel hook your opening move of your first roll with somebody giving a seminar at your gym.

Just my opinion.'

- TrumpetDan (from the Sherdog thread).

This ^^^. Rob, first and foremost, much respect to you, but people arent too far off about Mike. I mean for f*ck's sake's his nickname around circles is "Wack Mike". Its not bad form to try to submit the guy that you brung out for a seminar, but I would consider it bad taste to violently go after one of the most dangerous submissions you can do to a person who you know will be fighting in ADCC in a matter of months. Out of respect to Rafa on that alone he should've just kept things on a lighter note considering that Rafa has something MUCH bigger than a small rinky dink seminar that he's doing for someone. Its the shortsightedness that is annoying people.
7/8/13 12:48 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Caught_clean
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/11/09
Posts: 3306
In Phone Post
7/8/13 8:18 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
CJJScout
46 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/20/04
Posts: 8158
Heel hooks are fair game. We do them in our gym all the time. Good BJJ incorporates all submissions.
7/8/13 9:27 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Gamebred
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/1/01
Posts: 922
Backaddict I would agree 100% if I thought mikey was cranking in those. I believe heelhooks need to be trained but carefully. We can agree to disagree Phone Post
7/8/13 10:19 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vegard
15 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/24/07
Posts: 8700
Not my style, but that said, I've never really seen the Mendes brothers "friendly roll" with any of their sparring partners.
7/8/13 11:30 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
odennis
30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/13/09
Posts: 2147
vegard - Not my style, but that said, I've never really seen the Mendes brothers "friendly roll" with any of their sparring partners.

I don't agree with this at all. Yeah maybe they finish everyone they roll with but I've never really seen them go "after" guys. Most of the time I watch them they let guys work and advance when the guy makes openings/mistakes.
7/8/13 12:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vegard
15 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/24/07
Posts: 8701
I didn't say they go after guys. They just don't give up anything and always finish everyone. I think it is the mindset of an active competitor, champion.
7/8/13 5:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
PayItForward
115 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/4/02
Posts: 15409
you guys are reaching.

what moves are fair game then? neck cranks? straight ankle? Americana? kimura? straight armbar?

are only blood chokes fair game? no windpipe chokes as it may hurt the trachea.

are you really concerned about rafa versus a regular BB?
7/8/13 5:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
checkuroil
164 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/28/03
Posts: 36322
When in the gi I would play ibjjf legal Phone Post 3.0
7/8/13 6:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Phuckles
385 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/21/10
Posts: 11400
Mrbrownfolks - Wacker is the same tool from this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwIOI1SP8b8

That "I win" shit on the end is gay as hell. What a bitch.
7/8/13 11:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BackAddict347x
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/17/10
Posts: 156
PayItForward - you guys are reaching.

what moves are fair game then? neck cranks? straight ankle? Americana? kimura? straight armbar?

are only blood chokes fair game? no windpipe chokes as it may hurt the trachea.

are you really concerned about rafa versus a regular BB?

Were not comparing blood chokes and ankle locks to heel hooks are we? Because last time I checked those dont involve MCL or ACL tears which will take you out of a tournament. Also, how much money does Rafa stand to make from winning ADCC in relation to that seminar that he gave when he really didnt have to? I guess no one else will say it so i'll be the first, it just seemed that Wacker was trying to be that game who tapped a big name at a seminar so he could brag about it. So he went after one of the most devastating submissions that a person could go for that when applied too quickly will almost always result in surgery. Not to mention the fact that you could very easily tell Wacker's intentions behind the heel hooks if you watch how he acted when he got a hold of Rafa's foot, and then compare that to when Rafa got a hold of Wackers foot. Big difference. Now Rafa very easily could've been a dick and just tooled him mercilessly in front of his students, embarrassing him and emasculating him, but instead he chose to be kind, so kudos to him. I just think its unfortunate that opportunists will try so hard to make a name for themselves, hell, just look at his website.

Rob, I'm not disagreeing with you by saying you shouldnt train heel hooks. All i'm saying is that there is a time and a place for everything, and for a submission as delicate as that for someone that you dont know and train with regularly, there should have been much more leniency on stuff like that.
7/9/13 2:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
waveman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/02
Posts: 2128
I rolled with Rafa at a seminar and there was nothing easy about it. He tried to kill me.
7/9/13 2:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Muffinho
20 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/23/09
Posts: 1748
I've rolled with Rafa like 5 times and everytime he was playful. He'd let me escape only to take my back again a second later. He even let me sweep him once, and yes he "let" me do it.

Gui on the other hand, rolling with him, if you get a good angle in guard, you fucking have to work for it.
7/9/13 4:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Triple_B
14 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/25/11
Posts: 738
BackAddict347x - 
PayItForward - you guys are reaching.

what moves are fair game then? neck cranks? straight ankle? Americana? kimura? straight armbar?

are only blood chokes fair game? no windpipe chokes as it may hurt the trachea.

are you really concerned about rafa versus a regular BB?

Were not comparing blood chokes and ankle locks to heel hooks are we? Because last time I checked those dont involve MCL or ACL tears which will take you out of a tournament. Also, how much money does Rafa stand to make from winning ADCC in relation to that seminar that he gave when he really didnt have to? I guess no one else will say it so i'll be the first, it just seemed that Wacker was trying to be that game who tapped a big name at a seminar so he could brag about it. So he went after one of the most devastating submissions that a person could go for that when applied too quickly will almost always result in surgery. Not to mention the fact that you could very easily tell Wacker's intentions behind the heel hooks if you watch how he acted when he got a hold of Rafa's foot, and then compare that to when Rafa got a hold of Wackers foot. Big difference. Now Rafa very easily could've been a dick and just tooled him mercilessly in front of his students, embarrassing him and emasculating him, but instead he chose to be kind, so kudos to him. I just think its unfortunate that opportunists will try so hard to make a name for themselves, hell, just look at his website.

Rob, I'm not disagreeing with you by saying you shouldnt train heel hooks. All i'm saying is that there is a time and a place for everything, and for a submission as delicate as that for someone that you dont know and train with regularly, there should have been much more leniency on stuff like that.

If they were rolling in gi, I could understand why it would be looked down on since this is not a legal move. If the guy starts rolling light and then turns it up to 100% to try and catch someone I could see why you would think that is unfriendly. If he cranks any kind of submission to get a "gym win" than yes he is in the wrong.

Enough with this heel hook nonsense though. It is not the devastating career ending super submission that 90% of the jiu-jitsu world seems to think it is. Can it lead to severe injury? Yes. Does pain come on a little quicker than your average submission? Yea, but it depends.....

If you want to shy away from submissions that have a greater tendency to cause injury that is fine, but I've got news for you a kimura or other type of shoulder lock has the potential to cause even more damage when you consider just how weak the shoulder joint actually is. Why is it that I don't see people shying away from those moves? It's because for most people the first submission they learned was a kimura from guard or an americana from the top. When you've been doing something since day one you get a feel for the line that separates tap from snap.

Now slap a heel hook on a guy that's been training for a while, but has no experience with leg locks. He spazzes out and turns the wrong way, popping his own knee in the process. Instead of addressing the hole in his game, he remembers that heel hooks are seen as dangerous moves only meant for the most high level practitioners, so he just avoids them all together. Even worse is when people just give up and tap because they are sure a career ending knee injury is right around the corner.

Poor gym etiquette is poor gym etiquette. The type of move you are doing has nothing to do with it unless you are doing it with the intent to injure.
7/9/13 11:50 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BackAddict347x
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/17/10
Posts: 157
Triple_B - 
BackAddict347x - 
PayItForward - you guys are reaching.

what moves are fair game then? neck cranks? straight ankle? Americana? kimura? straight armbar?

are only blood chokes fair game? no windpipe chokes as it may hurt the trachea.

are you really concerned about rafa versus a regular BB?

Were not comparing blood chokes and ankle locks to heel hooks are we? Because last time I checked those dont involve MCL or ACL tears which will take you out of a tournament. Also, how much money does Rafa stand to make from winning ADCC in relation to that seminar that he gave when he really didnt have to? I guess no one else will say it so i'll be the first, it just seemed that Wacker was trying to be that game who tapped a big name at a seminar so he could brag about it. So he went after one of the most devastating submissions that a person could go for that when applied too quickly will almost always result in surgery. Not to mention the fact that you could very easily tell Wacker's intentions behind the heel hooks if you watch how he acted when he got a hold of Rafa's foot, and then compare that to when Rafa got a hold of Wackers foot. Big difference. Now Rafa very easily could've been a dick and just tooled him mercilessly in front of his students, embarrassing him and emasculating him, but instead he chose to be kind, so kudos to him. I just think its unfortunate that opportunists will try so hard to make a name for themselves, hell, just look at his website.

Rob, I'm not disagreeing with you by saying you shouldnt train heel hooks. All i'm saying is that there is a time and a place for everything, and for a submission as delicate as that for someone that you dont know and train with regularly, there should have been much more leniency on stuff like that.

If they were rolling in gi, I could understand why it would be looked down on since this is not a legal move. If the guy starts rolling light and then turns it up to 100% to try and catch someone I could see why you would think that is unfriendly. If he cranks any kind of submission to get a "gym win" than yes he is in the wrong.

Enough with this heel hook nonsense though. It is not the devastating career ending super submission that 90% of the jiu-jitsu world seems to think it is. Can it lead to severe injury? Yes. Does pain come on a little quicker than your average submission? Yea, but it depends.....

If you want to shy away from submissions that have a greater tendency to cause injury that is fine, but I've got news for you a kimura or other type of shoulder lock has the potential to cause even more damage when you consider just how weak the shoulder joint actually is. Why is it that I don't see people shying away from those moves? It's because for most people the first submission they learned was a kimura from guard or an americana from the top. When you've been doing something since day one you get a feel for the line that separates tap from snap.

Now slap a heel hook on a guy that's been training for a while, but has no experience with leg locks. He spazzes out and turns the wrong way, popping his own knee in the process. Instead of addressing the hole in his game, he remembers that heel hooks are seen as dangerous moves only meant for the most high level practitioners, so he just avoids them all together. Even worse is when people just give up and tap because they are sure a career ending knee injury is right around the corner.

Poor gym etiquette is poor gym etiquette. The type of move you are doing has nothing to do with it unless you are doing it with the intent to injure.

"Instead of addressing the hole in his game, he remembers that heel hooks are seen as dangerous moves only meant for the most high level practitioners, so he just avoids them all together. Even worse is when people just give up and tap because they are sure a career ending knee injury is right around the corner."

But isnt that what Wacker did the instant Rafa put him in a heel hook and didnt even crank it?
7/10/13 12:15 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ChipW
104 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/2/10
Posts: 2407
^^^to be fair, it didn't look like wacker cranked his either.

I'm sure us armchair quarter backs are making a much bigger deal out of this then rafa. He's a world champion, I doubt he was to worried about it Phone Post
7/10/13 6:53 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
blanko
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/10/05
Posts: 441
honestly, it looked like he wanted a quick tap so he could post it online and his students/other people can start saying "He tapped mendes"
7/10/13 8:43 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BackAddict347x
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/17/10
Posts: 158
blanko - honestly, it looked like he wanted a quick tap so he could post it online and his students/other people can start saying "He tapped mendes"

This ^^^^^. He wanted to hit Rafa with the same "I win!" that he hit Ryan Hall with.
7/10/13 12:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JamesWestfall
24 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/6/08
Posts: 184
I've been to Mike's school in Wappingers Falls, NY. My wife and I were visiting her family in Maybrook. We took a couple days vacation from Glendale, AZ last year. Mike couldn't have been nicer and his students were very good too
7/10/13 2:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Marion Cobretti
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/20/07
Posts: 2197
why cant i open this F'ing link!
7/11/13 4:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Predator2alpha
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/23/13
Posts: 30
BackAddict347x - 
GrahamJ - 'I personally feel its a breach of protocol to dive for a heel hook your opening move of your first roll with somebody giving a seminar at your gym.

Just my opinion.'

- TrumpetDan (from the Sherdog thread).

This ^^^. Rob, first and foremost, much respect to you, but people arent too far off about Mike. I mean for f*ck's sake's his nickname around circles is "Wack Mike". Its not bad form to try to submit the guy that you brung out for a seminar, but I would consider it bad taste to violently go after one of the most dangerous submissions you can do to a person who you know will be fighting in ADCC in a matter of months. Out of respect to Rafa on that alone he should've just kept things on a lighter note considering that Rafa has something MUCH bigger than a small rinky dink seminar that he's doing for someone. Its the shortsightedness that is annoying people.

If Rafa was worried about ADCC, there is always the option to just tap, leave ego out of it and roll with someone who is keeping it friendly for him.

I don't think Wacker is a bad guy for hitting the heel hook because I don't think he cranked them nor do I think he was rolling too aggressively. "I win" was lame, though.

7/11/13 4:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Muffinho
20 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/23/09
Posts: 1754
If he did crank it, Rafa would have broke him.
7/11/13 7:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
LEMon
102 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9443
I didn't see a problem there. Rafa is at my gym today and tomorrow and murdered everyone. That was basically first gear.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.