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UnderGround Forums >> Chuck Liddell: The UFC is not a welfare state


7/10/13 7:55 PM
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yabadaba
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Edited: 07/10/13 8:09 PM
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EckY - The situation for foreign fighters is even worse, some Japanese fighters have essentially had to pay to fight in the UFC and UFC only give them a hotel for 4-5 days around the event which is not nearly enough time, so if they want to come out earlier as they obviously would they have today the difference in airfare and hotels and also they get the problem of being double taxed.

Is the double taxation issue not what tax treaties are for? Pretty sure the US and Japan have one.

When current fighters, knowing they my be treated differently for speaking out, still speak out, you know there is a problem.

No doubt struggling rock stars would speak out if they thought anyone would listen. The rewards of this career choice are huge - but only if you get to the top.

7/10/13 8:08 PM
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Jacinto
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What a joke. Hard to be the best when you can't even train full-time because your pay is so low. Doesn't Zuffa also charge sponsors to even sponsor a fighter thus taking a cut of their sponsorship money as well?
7/10/13 8:46 PM
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CindyO
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JustTheTip - 
CindyO - 
Bellator Fan - The UFC can afford to pay them more fairly for the risks to their health but use performance as an excuse not to. Phone Post 3.0

Viacom can afford to pay them more fairly for the risks to their health but people use Bellators low numbers as an excuse for them not to. Same goes for why they can afford insurance like the UFC does yet doesn't provide it as well as why they don't drug test 100%:)

If the UFC can afford it Viacom dayum sure can, amirite Bellatorfan? :)

 

Cindy


So you want Bellator, a company that's been around for 4 years, to be on par with the UFC who's been around 20+?

Was UFC offering medical insurance in 1997?

Where is the source that they drug test 100% of their fighters?

Where is the source they pay for these drug tests and not the AC's (which you claimed on another thread today)?

So you want Bellator, a company that's been around for 4 years, to be on par with the UFC who's been around 20+?

Ha! So you're saying they should run their promotion like a BUSINESS? Like why pay or do more than they have to just because they can afford it? But its not OK for Zuffa to do the same, although they DO pay better, provide insurance and pay 100% of the premiums, as well as drug test 100% of their cards???

I want VIACOM, majority owner of Bellator, staging fights on Spike (a network they ALSO own) to pay their professional athletes- who put their lives on the line for our entertainment- a livable wage, medical insurance, bonuses, as well as pay for drug testing 100% of their fight cards because they can well afford to do these things for their fighters. They specifically got into the MMA business to compete with the UFC so its well beyond time for them to put their money where their mouths are, no??? Bellator has done around 100 shows so its not like they're just learning the ropes. Spike's not new at this nor is Viacom. They could and should do better, no?


Was UFC offering medical insurance in 1997?

I doubt it, considering the mess former owner Bob Meyrowitz found himself and the UFC in around that time for pimping the "two men enter but only one man leaves" crap that ended up costing him everything. 

Where is the source that they drug test 100% of their fighters?

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/5/30/4379788/ufc-on-fx-8-drug-tests-clean-brazil-commission-explains-belforts-trt

 

"The UFC has been informed by CABMMA that all fighters on the UFC on FX 8 card passed their pre- and post-fight drug tests," today's announcement read. "The UFC fully supports the drug testing efforts of all regulatory agencies. All fighters are drug tested at every event and the organization maintains a strict, consistent policy against the use of any illegal and/or performance-enhancing drugs, stimulants or masking agents."



Where is the source they pay for these drug tests and not the AC's (which you claimed on another thread today)?

You can go state by state but here's Nevada's:

http://boxing.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/boxingnvgov/content/Licensing/EXPECTATIONS1.pdf

DRUG AND STEROID TESTING
Every event will have fight-night drug and steroid testing of contestants. It is the responsibility of the promoter to pay for those costs. The total cost of the testing depends on the total number of bouts, and the total number of title bouts, if any. The overall cost to the promoter usually runs between $1,000 and $2,000.

 

And from Louisiana's commissioner:

http://www.mmafighting.com/ufc/2012/3/30/2911952/peds-in-mma-the-trouble-with-testing

"The fact is, there are still situations in which the UFC works hand-in-hand with state regulators to enforce drug testing, mostly by footing the bill.

Alvin Topham, who chairs the Louisiana Boxing and Wrestling Commission, detailed that process during an interview with MMA Fighting.

When the UFC comes to the state, as they did last September, they insist upon drug testing. The commission will administer the tests, select a laboratory to process them, and pay the initial bill. They will also be the first to receive the results, which they will eventually pass along to the UFC.

The promotion later reimburses them for the cost."

 

Cindy

 

7/10/13 8:46 PM
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GROUNDnLB
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Chuck is getting paid big time by Dana and the fertitas, of course he is going to toe the company line. Phone Post 3.0
7/10/13 8:47 PM
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CindyO
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CindyO - 
Bellator Fan - The UFC can afford to compensate them a little better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minimum. Phone Post 3.0

Viacom can afford to compensate them a LOT better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minumum.

 

Cindy


I'm sorry, but to the average MMA fan Bellator is a feeder organization to the UFC. Hell, any other MMA company is a feeder to the UFC. This is an obvious fact.

Fighter pay should reflect that.

LMFAO that fighter pay should be based on the opinions of the "average fan!"

 

Cindy

7/10/13 8:49 PM
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epwar
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RockyBullwinkle - Anyone remember that story Dana told, how Chuck wasn't happy because he thought the SEG run UFC was underpaying him. And this was when he pretty new and fighting on the undercard, not a headliner. So Chuck's manager had him hold out, even though he was currently under contract. And guess what? SEG gave him a raise. That manager was Dana White.

Surprising that they look down on others doing the same thing.

Hahahahaha!  Awesome.  Voted up!

7/10/13 8:49 PM
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Thacommish
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CindyO - 
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CindyO - 
Bellator Fan - The UFC can afford to compensate them a little better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minimum. Phone Post 3.0

Viacom can afford to compensate them a LOT better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minumum.

 

Cindy


I'm sorry, but to the average MMA fan Bellator is a feeder organization to the UFC. Hell, any other MMA company is a feeder to the UFC. This is an obvious fact.

Fighter pay should reflect that.

LMFAO that fighter pay should be based on the opinions of the "average fan!"

 

Cindy


How about yearly revenue?
7/10/13 8:51 PM
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Oddessa
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Mr. Chuck Liddell  just made me a fan.

A fighter with some sense of the reality of bizness.

 

 

 

7/10/13 8:52 PM
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CindyO
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JustTheTip - Per Cindy from "Bellator's Artoff tests positive for marijuana" thread:

"And those drug standards suck. Thats why Zuffa has 100% of their fighters tested as well as pays for it. I suppose Viacom is too cheap or poor to do the same."

Since when does the UFC test 100% of fighters? From my understanding, they test a portion of the card and main event.

Why do they pay for it? Are you saying commissions have nothing to do with testing or just referring to countries that have no commissions?

Sorry Tip, I post as I read and responded to your questions a few posts above this one.

 

Cindy

7/10/13 8:54 PM
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Oddessa
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fuk..i thought I just typed Realty and not Reality ...of biz..

expected to see response to  the reality of my lack of spelling skilz

 

 

7/10/13 9:00 PM
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Wiggy
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Edited: 07/10/13 9:01 PM
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CindyO - LMFAO that fighter pay should be based on the opinions of the "average fan!"

But isn't that what the UFC does by offering bonuses, higher-paid contracts, etc to fighters that end fights and/or put on a better show?

i.e. - fights that are more exciting to the "average fan"?

Do they care what the "average fan" thinks or not?
7/10/13 9:02 PM
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Wiggy
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epwar - 
RockyBullwinkle - Anyone remember that story Dana told, how Chuck wasn't happy because he thought the SEG run UFC was underpaying him. And this was when he pretty new and fighting on the undercard, not a headliner. So Chuck's manager had him hold out, even though he was currently under contract. And guess what? SEG gave him a raise. That manager was Dana White.

Surprising that they look down on others doing the same thing.

Hahahahaha!  Awesome.  Voted up!


LOL - same here.
7/10/13 9:04 PM
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BTT-RyannVonDoom
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CindyO - 
BTT-RyannVonDoom - 
JustTheTip -
TopGrinder - For the most part yeah but ring whore girls get paid more than most fighters its sad. My real problem is the % of these fighters get paid compared to UFC profits. When total payroll for a UFC ppv is 500-900k and UFC live gate is over 2-3 million plus 400k ppv buys the fighters r royally getting fucked over. Fighters r getting paid what10-15% of total revenue? If that? That is some total fuckery right there Phone Post 3.0

Ha...this. Arianny's estimated net worth is around $1M. I wonder what percentage of UFC's fighters can say that. Maybe 4-5%? It's sad.
Wait what? She was working at ambercrombie and fitch for min wage before she got on as a ring card girl... Fuck man.. The ring card girls are doing better than the actual fighters. Phone Post 3.0

How much did she make when she signed with the UFC 6 years ago and how much does she make now per event?

 

Cindy


I have no idea.. but if it's true about her being worth a over a million, that means she made a shitload during her tenure with Zuffa. One of my best friends worked with her at Ambercrombie and she was making at or near min wage there.. not exactly glamourous and able to make someone a millionaire.

7/10/13 9:08 PM
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CindyO
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Macedawgg - 

C'Mon Cindy O--it isn't Viacom, it is Bellator. 

Can Bellator afford to pay more? 

 


Majority owner of Bellator is who? Viacom. And they wanted to specifically be in this bidness, my friend, not just run MMA shows on another network they also happen to own (Spike). And they can afford it.

You have an MMA association. Surprised you aren't going down this same road with me. Viacom can invest anything they want to. How much would a policy cost them similar to what the UFC provides and pays 100% of the premiums for?

If they made their minimum pay 10k/10k, 12/12, 14/14, how much would it cost them?

And drug testing every fighter on every card... how much would that set them back?

I'm confused on your stance; is it that Viacom shouldn't have to invest in their Bellator athletes, guys working for a promotion they own the majority of and are actively involved in running and call the shots for, even though they can well afford to? If so, I'm very surprised considering who you are and what you do.

 

Cindy

7/10/13 9:10 PM
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CindyO
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jimbonice -  This statement is a wee but ironic coming from Chuck, who was handed a job, for which he was not qualified for, and one in which his boss freely admits he doesn't show up for. He gets paid for no real reason. Do you think that's like welfare? Phone Post

Why isn't he qualified for the job?

 

Cindy

7/10/13 9:14 PM
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CindyO
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MTomlinson - 

these are the type of threads where so many UG'rs oust themselves as having ZERO business savvy.

a fighters worth is EXACTLY, ONLY, and PRECISELY what a company is willing to pay them, and not a dollar more.

If you don't like the contract; don't sign it. No one is forcing ANYONE to sign ANYTHING.

If the UFC was paying unfair compensation, most fighters in the world wouldn't be scrambling to join up - Fact.

we don't live in an idealogical utopia where we get paid what we THINK we deserve. We get paid what someone else is willing to pay us, period.

 


Exactly. Voted up!

 

Cindy

7/10/13 9:23 PM
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LILBROCK
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CindyO - 
jimbonice -  This statement is a wee but ironic coming from Chuck, who was handed a job, for which he was not qualified for, and one in which his boss freely admits he doesn't show up for. He gets paid for no real reason. Do you think that's like welfare? Phone Post

Why isn't he qualified for the job?

 

Cindy


http://youtu.be/CFvHuKAASe8
7/10/13 9:37 PM
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BshMstr
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LILBROCK - 
Wiggy - 
LILBROCK - 
steveAKAslick - 
BuddyRevell -

How much do low-level undercard pro boxers get paid compared to their UFC counterparts?

Chuck said it and it's true, starting out you're lucky to get $100 dollars a round Phone Post 3.0

Ya, and most 0-0 MMA fighters starting out in bumfuck nowhere make $200 + $200 also. What's your point? We're talking about the UFC here. The pinnacle of the sport. The "Superbowl of MMA" says Dana White. The best fighters in the world.

Since these $100 per round guys in boxing keep being brought up, let's see if it's indeed a true comparison.

Where do these $100/round guys on boxing PPV undercards come from? Meaning (and I'm asking b/c I legitimately don't know) are they put on the prelim/undercard (not talking mid-card type guys - the true "guys on the bottom") are they just local/regional fighters put on there to fill out the card? If a card was in Vegas, would most of the prelim/undercard guys be from the area/region? If a card was put on in Atlantic City, they'd all be from the north east, and so on?

Or are these guys getting paid $100/round coming from anywhere from several states to across the country (or even from another country) to be on said undercard - much like you see on every UFC undercard/prelim?

Are we honestly talking about the same "level" of fighter, here?

No...these guys are trying to compare an 0-0 pro MMA fighter competing at a truck pull in the middle of Kansas to a prelim fighter on a UFC card which will be at the worst on Facebook and if it's exciting, will make it as a filler for the PPV.

And I'm sure they do bring in local guys for big boxing shows, but most boxing undercards are fairly experienced guys too and they're making more than $100/round. I went to a Ricky Hatton fight in Vegas years ago and one of the first fights of the night was his brother, who had something like 40 fights at the time.

Look at just the Mayweather/Cotto fight. Mayweather got a guaranteed $45M, Cotto a guaranteed $8M (expected to be closed to $10M), Mosley $750K, and Alvarez a guaranteed $2M.

Just those 4 guys made around $57M with 1.5M PPV buys.

The UFC had an estimated 1M PPV buys for GSP/Diaz and payed out a reported $1.35M. Factor in another 4M for PPV bonuses to the main eventers, that's $5.3M

Boxing: 1.5M buys= $57M payout (not including rest of card)

UFC: 1M buys= $5.3M payout

Yup.
7/10/13 9:37 PM
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CindyO
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Macedawgg - 
CindyO - 
JustTheTip - 
TopGrinder - For the most part yeah but ring whore girls get paid more than most fighters its sad. My real problem is the % of these fighters get paid compared to UFC profits. When total payroll for a UFC ppv is 500-900k and UFC live gate is over 2-3 million plus 400k ppv buys the fighters r royally getting fucked over. Fighters r getting paid what10-15% of total revenue? If that? That is some total fuckery right there Phone Post 3.0

Ha...this. Arianny's estimated net worth is around $1M. I wonder what percentage of UFC's fighters can say that. Maybe 4-5%? It's sad.

How much of that was event pay by the UFC and how much was sponsorships, modeling, videos, etc that wasn't paid by Zuffa? Because what Arianny is doing is exactly what fighters should be doing, leveraging their brand in as many areas possible while using the UFCs platform as their diving board.

But if you think about it, look how many events per year the RCGs work compared to how often a fighter competes. They have zero real down time where they can just be little fatties all kicked back on the couch until the phone rings with an offer to hold up some cards in 3 months. They're in the gym on a regular basis and waxing, manis, pedis, weaves, and cosmetic and/or surgical procedures (if any) aren't free, just like a fighter training isn't.

Ha! I guess if they worked as often and as hard as Arianny does then they would make as much as she does:)

 

Cindy


Oh goodness. 

No, that isn't how sports should work. 

American Idol--sure.  Sports--no. 

Again, is MMA a sport?  If so, competition determines merit. 

The "platform" and "spring board" analogy is inapplicable.  Do the Yankees provide a "springboard" for Jeter?  Did the Colts provide the "platform" for Peyton Manning? 

Give me a break.


Oh goodness. 

No, that isn't how sports should work. 

American Idol--sure.  Sports--no. 

I'm speaking to the fact these guys are self-employeed and are essentially their own brand and business. Are you trying to say it is wrong for them to maximize their exposure while they're on the big stage in order to generate themselves additional revenue to compliment their money made from competing in the UFC??? You know, like most of the big names they aspire to be like in this sport that do movies, endorsements, modeling, seminars, commentating, etc, etc, etc?

Or are you saying they shouldn't "have" to because their UFC purses and win bonuses "should" be enough, even though most only fight 2 or 3 times per year?

Again, is MMA a sport? 

Yep. And the UFC is a promoter within the sport.

If so, competition determines merit. 

In the UFC, competitive performance determines merit and compensation, and those terms are spelled out in a multi-page contract these guys sign and agree to that outlines what they are due. Then the UFC pays them more on top of their contracted amounts. Additional appreciation for performance. I'd be pissed if my employer paid me like that!

The "platform" and "spring board" analogy is inapplicable.  Do the Yankees provide a "springboard" for Jeter?  Did the Colts provide the "platform" for Peyton Manning? 

Give me a break.

I guess you should ask for that break from Ronda, Chuck, Forrest, or other UFC fighters who have used their time inside the Octagon as a platform for successful non-fighting gigs:)

 

Cindy

7/10/13 9:38 PM
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CindyO
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JimmersonzGlove - 

How much of Arianny's net worth came from that hot song she dropped on the interwebz though? Her wealth may not be all of UFC's doing.


LOL!

 

Cindy

7/10/13 9:44 PM
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BshMstr
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CindyO - 
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CindyO - 
Bellator Fan - The UFC can afford to compensate them a little better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minimum. Phone Post 3.0

Viacom can afford to compensate them a LOT better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minumum.

 

Cindy


I'm sorry, but to the average MMA fan Bellator is a feeder organization to the UFC. Hell, any other MMA company is a feeder to the UFC. This is an obvious fact.

Fighter pay should reflect that.

LMFAO that fighter pay should be based on the opinions of the "average fan!"

 

Cindy


why is that so absurd? popular fighters and fan favorites don't get paid as much?

no, the companies they work for typically pay them better due to their rapport with the fans....
7/10/13 9:45 PM
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CindyO
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Jacinto - What a joke. Hard to be the best when you can't even train full-time because your pay is so low. Doesn't Zuffa also charge sponsors to even sponsor a fighter thus taking a cut of their sponsorship money as well?

Why should a small individual sponsor of a fighter be able to gain PPV attention for their brand on the UFC's dime (since they pay for the PPV time they buy)  while event sponsors have to pay the UFC for that right???

How do other sports handle such things? Do they allow their athletes to be billboards for other companies w/o any form of compensation or do they take a piece of the pie, too? This is the only sport I follow. Thanks.

 

Cindy

7/10/13 9:48 PM
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CindyO
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RockyBullwinkle - Anyone remember that story Dana told, how Chuck wasn't happy because he thought the SEG run UFC was underpaying him? And this was when he was pretty new and still fighting on the undercard, not a headliner. So Chuck's manager had him hold out, even though he was currently under contract. And guess what? SEG gave him a raise. That manager was Dana White.<br /><br />Surprising that they look down on others doing the same thing.

Anyone remember Chuck whining after he signed a contract? Because that's what they're bitching about fighters doing- signing the things and then whining about them.

 

Cindy

7/10/13 9:50 PM
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BshMstr
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ordinarily the team gets the sponsor money..... but, most team athletes don't have to pay to train in their facilities (and everythign that goes along with it, travel, trainers, etc), whereas MMA athletes do.
7/10/13 9:52 PM
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CindyO
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Thacommish - 
CindyO - 
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CindyO - 
Bellator Fan - The UFC can afford to compensate them a little better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minimum. Phone Post 3.0

Viacom can afford to compensate them a LOT better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minumum.

 

Cindy


I'm sorry, but to the average MMA fan Bellator is a feeder organization to the UFC. Hell, any other MMA company is a feeder to the UFC. This is an obvious fact.

Fighter pay should reflect that.

LMFAO that fighter pay should be based on the opinions of the "average fan!"

 

Cindy


How about yearly revenue?

That sounds interesting. How would you calculate how much each fighter generates in revenue to determine what they would be owed?

 

Cindy


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