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UnderGround Forums >> Chuck Liddell: The UFC is not a welfare state


7/10/13 9:52 PM
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CindyO
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Thacommish - 
CindyO - 
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CindyO - 
Bellator Fan - The UFC can afford to compensate them a little better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minimum. Phone Post 3.0

Viacom can afford to compensate them a LOT better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minumum.

 

Cindy


I'm sorry, but to the average MMA fan Bellator is a feeder organization to the UFC. Hell, any other MMA company is a feeder to the UFC. This is an obvious fact.

Fighter pay should reflect that.

LMFAO that fighter pay should be based on the opinions of the "average fan!"

 

Cindy


How about yearly revenue?

That sounds interesting. How would you calculate how much each fighter generates in revenue to determine what they would be owed?

 

Cindy

7/10/13 9:56 PM
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Thacommish
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CindyO - 
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CindyO - 
Bellator Fan - The UFC can afford to compensate them a little better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minimum. Phone Post 3.0

Viacom can afford to compensate them a LOT better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minumum.

 

Cindy


I'm sorry, but to the average MMA fan Bellator is a feeder organization to the UFC. Hell, any other MMA company is a feeder to the UFC. This is an obvious fact.

Fighter pay should reflect that.

LMFAO that fighter pay should be based on the opinions of the "average fan!"

 

Cindy


How about yearly revenue?

That sounds interesting. How would you calculate how much each fighter generates in revenue to determine what they would be owed?

 

Cindy


We are talking about the companies, bellator vs ufc revenue and what they can offer to their fighters as a result, are you slow>? stay on topic lmao!!!!!
7/10/13 10:04 PM
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Thacommish
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CindyO - 
RockyBullwinkle - Anyone remember that story Dana told, how Chuck wasn't happy because he thought the SEG run UFC was underpaying him? And this was when he was pretty new and still fighting on the undercard, not a headliner. So Chuck's manager had him hold out, even though he was currently under contract. And guess what? SEG gave him a raise. That manager was Dana White.<br /><br />Surprising that they look down on others doing the same thing.

Anyone remember Chuck whining after he signed a contract? Because that's what they're bitching about fighters doing- signing the things and then whining about them.

 

Cindy


When Chuck was under the seg deal before the renegotiation, did he sign off on that or did they just adopt him from a foreign land and bring him over by boat?
7/10/13 10:06 PM
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CindyO
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Wiggy - 
CindyO - LMFAO that fighter pay should be based on the opinions of the "average fan!"

But isn't that what the UFC does by offering bonuses, higher-paid contracts, etc to fighters that end fights and/or put on a better show?

i.e. - fights that are more exciting to the "average fan"?

Do they care what the "average fan" thinks or not?

You kinda answered the question yourself. Fighter pay isn't determined by fans, neither are win bonuses or rankings. Discretionary bonuses are somewhat fan driven because if a fight sucks for the fans the fighters won't be getting one whereas if they perform well, they will.

Just like if a fighter has a lot of fans in the crowd and is a fan favorite- if his fights suck, it doesn't matter how many folks came out to support him or ordered the PPV to watch him- he isn't getting a performance based discretionary bonus or an OTN check.

If fighter pay was based on the opinions of the fans there wouldn't be an issue with fighter pay, based on the thousands of fighter pay threads on the UG alone.

I'm never against anyone getting more. My problem is when folks willingly sign contracts and then whine about them later, regardless of the organization. That's why I supported Bellator over the Eddie thing- he signed a contract. Blame the judge that made the opinion that Bellators contract was a match not Viacom/Bellator/Bjorn for enforcing it (as much as I want to see him in the UFC).

 

Cindy

7/10/13 10:08 PM
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Bam57Bam
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Stipe -
Bellator Fan - "(Lower paid) guys have got to understand, this is a performance based sport, like all sports,"

Most other sports have unions and lower tier athletes get paid much better in comparison. These guys are taking similar risks to football players but not being compensated fairly. Phone Post 3.0

Yeah.
It is also not just about bringing in the viewers right this instance. It's about building the healty sport.
You must have a good base of the pyramid for that one GSP to come out on top. He has to be beating the Koscheks, and they in turn have to be brushing their skills and beating lower tiers and so on and so on.
The UFC does not have multi billion dollar contracts with the networks either.

Can't make that comparison. Phone Post
7/10/13 10:11 PM
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CindyO
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Bellator Fan - The UFC can afford to compensate them a little better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minimum. Phone Post 3.0

Viacom can afford to compensate them a LOT better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minumum.

 

Cindy


I'm sorry, but to the average MMA fan Bellator is a feeder organization to the UFC. Hell, any other MMA company is a feeder to the UFC. This is an obvious fact.

Fighter pay should reflect that.

LMFAO that fighter pay should be based on the opinions of the "average fan!"

 

Cindy


why is that so absurd? popular fighters and fan favorites don't get paid as much?

no, the companies they work for typically pay them better due to their rapport with the fans....

Hi BM,

See my post to Wiggy just now as what you are saying is similar. Thanks.

 

Cindy

7/10/13 10:13 PM
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CindyO
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BshMstr - ordinarily the team gets the sponsor money..... but, most team athletes don't have to pay to train in their facilities (and everythign that goes along with it, travel, trainers, etc), whereas MMA athletes do.

That sounds pretty cool. Maybe when MMA gets as big as team sports and have same level of sponsorship money to play with it will be the same for these guys.

 

Cindy

7/10/13 10:16 PM
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BshMstr
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CindyO - 
Wiggy - 
CindyO - LMFAO that fighter pay should be based on the opinions of the "average fan!"

But isn't that what the UFC does by offering bonuses, higher-paid contracts, etc to fighters that end fights and/or put on a better show?

i.e. - fights that are more exciting to the "average fan"?

Do they care what the "average fan" thinks or not?

You kinda answered the question yourself. Fighter pay isn't determined by fans, neither are win bonuses or rankings. Discretionary bonuses are somewhat fan driven because if a fight sucks for the fans the fighters won't be getting one whereas if they perform well, they will.

Just like if a fighter has a lot of fans in the crowd and is a fan favorite- if his fights suck, it doesn't matter how many folks came out to support him or ordered the PPV to watch him- he isn't getting a performance based discretionary bonus or an OTN check.

If fighter pay was based on the opinions of the fans there wouldn't be an issue with fighter pay, based on the thousands of fighter pay threads on the UG alone.

I'm never against anyone getting more. My problem is when folks willingly sign contracts and then whine about them later, regardless of the organization. That's why I supported Bellator over the Eddie thing- he signed a contract. Blame the judge that made the opinion that Bellators contract was a match not Viacom/Bellator/Bjorn for enforcing it (as much as I want to see him in the UFC).

 

Cindy


fighter pay is affected by their fan base.... Dan Hardy does not have the record to justify his contract in the UFC, neither does Chael for that matter...

Jon Fitch got cut by the UFC when he was a ranked top 10 fighter.... why? he didn't make the UFC money.

the fan opinion does matter for pay, and to pretend that an athlete's popularity doesn't matter is absurd.

7/10/13 10:17 PM
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12
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CindyO - 
Bellator Fan - The UFC can afford to compensate them a little better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minimum. Phone Post 3.0

Viacom can afford to compensate them a LOT better. Guys are getting knocked out, smashed to pieces etc. They should be compensated for the long-term health risks at a minumum.

 

Cindy


the ufc does that?
7/10/13 10:21 PM
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BshMstr
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CindyO - 
BshMstr - ordinarily the team gets the sponsor money..... but, most team athletes don't have to pay to train in their facilities (and everythign that goes along with it, travel, trainers, etc), whereas MMA athletes do.

That sounds pretty cool. Maybe when MMA gets as big as team sports and have same level of sponsorship money to play with it will be the same for these guys.

 

Cindy


well, it won't be like that...

the MLB or whatever organization provides what the athletes need as part of the job, which justifies keeping the sponsorship money....

however, the UFC does not provide training facilities (or any of the things that the fighters require, minus minor travel expenses), yet requires them to foot the bill. even worse, the UFC acts like being a fighter isn't a real job, but still makes a ton of money of their blood....
7/10/13 11:08 PM
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Wiggy
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BshMstr - 
CindyO - 
Wiggy - 
CindyO - LMFAO that fighter pay should be based on the opinions of the "average fan!"

But isn't that what the UFC does by offering bonuses, higher-paid contracts, etc to fighters that end fights and/or put on a better show?

i.e. - fights that are more exciting to the "average fan"?

Do they care what the "average fan" thinks or not?

You kinda answered the question yourself. Fighter pay isn't determined by fans, neither are win bonuses or rankings. Discretionary bonuses are somewhat fan driven because if a fight sucks for the fans the fighters won't be getting one whereas if they perform well, they will.

Just like if a fighter has a lot of fans in the crowd and is a fan favorite- if his fights suck, it doesn't matter how many folks came out to support him or ordered the PPV to watch him- he isn't getting a performance based discretionary bonus or an OTN check.

If fighter pay was based on the opinions of the fans there wouldn't be an issue with fighter pay, based on the thousands of fighter pay threads on the UG alone.

I'm never against anyone getting more. My problem is when folks willingly sign contracts and then whine about them later, regardless of the organization. That's why I supported Bellator over the Eddie thing- he signed a contract. Blame the judge that made the opinion that Bellators contract was a match not Viacom/Bellator/Bjorn for enforcing it (as much as I want to see him in the UFC).

 

Cindy


fighter pay is affected by their fan base.... Dan Hardy does not have the record to justify his contract in the UFC, neither does Chael for that matter...

Jon Fitch got cut by the UFC when he was a ranked top 10 fighter.... why? he didn't make the UFC money.

the fan opinion does matter for pay, and to pretend that an athlete's popularity doesn't matter is absurd.


Only posting to say I agree.

Done with this argument. UFC mega-supporters keep talking in circles and out of both sides of their mouth when it suits them. I'm not "pro" UFC, nor am I "anti" UFC, but the inability to call a spade a spade here by so many people is borderline trollerific, IMO.

Carry on and have a good night.
7/10/13 11:41 PM
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epwar
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CindyO - 
RockyBullwinkle - Anyone remember that story Dana told, how Chuck wasn't happy because he thought the SEG run UFC was underpaying him? And this was when he was pretty new and still fighting on the undercard, not a headliner. So Chuck's manager had him hold out, even though he was currently under contract. And guess what? SEG gave him a raise. That manager was Dana White.<br /><br />Surprising that they look down on others doing the same thing.

Anyone remember Chuck whining after he signed a contract? Because that's what they're bitching about fighters doing- signing the things and then whining about them.

 

Cindy


LOL!  Holding out and refusing to fulfill your SIGNED contract until you get a raise isn't whining?

7/11/13 2:30 AM
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SonOfThePeepHole
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Wiggy -
BshMstr - 
CindyO - 
Wiggy - 
CindyO - LMFAO that fighter pay should be based on the opinions of the "average fan!"

But isn't that what the UFC does by offering bonuses, higher-paid contracts, etc to fighters that end fights and/or put on a better show?

i.e. - fights that are more exciting to the "average fan"?

Do they care what the "average fan" thinks or not?

You kinda answered the question yourself. Fighter pay isn't determined by fans, neither are win bonuses or rankings. Discretionary bonuses are somewhat fan driven because if a fight sucks for the fans the fighters won't be getting one whereas if they perform well, they will.

Just like if a fighter has a lot of fans in the crowd and is a fan favorite- if his fights suck, it doesn't matter how many folks came out to support him or ordered the PPV to watch him- he isn't getting a performance based discretionary bonus or an OTN check.

If fighter pay was based on the opinions of the fans there wouldn't be an issue with fighter pay, based on the thousands of fighter pay threads on the UG alone.

I'm never against anyone getting more. My problem is when folks willingly sign contracts and then whine about them later, regardless of the organization. That's why I supported Bellator over the Eddie thing- he signed a contract. Blame the judge that made the opinion that Bellators contract was a match not Viacom/Bellator/Bjorn for enforcing it (as much as I want to see him in the UFC).

 

Cindy


fighter pay is affected by their fan base.... Dan Hardy does not have the record to justify his contract in the UFC, neither does Chael for that matter...

Jon Fitch got cut by the UFC when he was a ranked top 10 fighter.... why? he didn't make the UFC money.

the fan opinion does matter for pay, and to pretend that an athlete's popularity doesn't matter is absurd.


Only posting to say I agree.

Done with this argument. UFC mega-supporters keep talking in circles and out of both sides of their mouth when it suits them. I'm not "pro" UFC, nor am I "anti" UFC, but the inability to call a spade a spade here by so many people is borderline trollerific, IMO.

Carry on and have a good night.
My favorite mod

Keep up the good fight wiggy Phone Post
7/11/13 2:32 AM
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SonOfThePeepHole
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I find it hard to take anything Cindy says seriously.

Her biased is clearly enough to warrant not even including her in this conversation Phone Post
7/11/13 2:51 AM
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fightharder
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Luke Thomas weekly wrap....

That is all i am going to say on this subject.Listen to what he has to say about the subject.If you are a reasonable,compassionate human being with an appreciation for what these fucking warrior put on the line for us every time they step into the cage,that is really the only sane standpoint one can agree with.

I love Lidell but he is not going to attract the ''new athlete type of kids'' with these types of comments. ''The times are changing''.
7/11/13 7:39 AM
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Jacinto
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SonOfThePeepHole -  I find it hard to take anything Cindy says seriously.

Her biased is clearly enough to warrant not even including her in this conversation Phone Post

You may as well be listening to Dana White himself when she posts. Only difference is the f-bombs.
7/11/13 9:05 AM
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Tombmatter
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Isn't Chuck's position in UFC a wellfare job from a friend though?
7/11/13 4:39 PM
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EazyG
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The UFC has a virtual MONOPOLY (or monopsony) on high level MMA. There is no free market for fighters. This is Economics 101. Chuck is better at fighting than thinking.

The UFC uses their monopoly to pay relatively low wages to fighters. If there were at least several MMA promotions actively competing to sign fighters, wages would likely rise and you would have more of a 'free market'.

Its quite similar to the situation in major sports such as the NFL, MLB, NBA... and the reason there are strong players unions in those sports.

The decent answer to the UFC monopoly is likely a Union of fighters that negotiates jointly for all the fighters. Basically make the UFC monopoly negotiate with a union monopoly.
7/11/13 4:48 PM
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EazyG
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Cindy-

Can you justify the monopoly/monopsony position of the UFC? That is really the heart of the figher pay argument that you have not addressed.

If the UFC is a monopoly, they are probably grossly underpaying the fighters which is my sense. Can you give us a reasonable counter-argument???
7/11/13 4:52 PM
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MTomlinson
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EazyG - Cindy-

Can you justify the monopoly/monopsony position of the UFC? That is really the heart of the figher pay argument that you have not addressed.

If the UFC is a monopoly, they are probably grossly underpaying the fighters which is my sense. Can you give us a reasonable counter-argument???

Cindy has got to be tired of answering easy and obvious questions like this one so i'll try to chime in.

 

Even though you, EazyG, thinks that the UFC is a monopoly, the FCC does NOT.

 

"The Federal Trade Commission’s Bureau of Competition has been conducting a nonpublic investigation to determine whether Zuffa, LLC’s acquisition of Explosion Entertainment, LLC may violate Section 7 of the Clayton Act or Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act. Upon further review of this matter, it now appears that no further action is warranted by the Commission at this time. Accordingly, the investigation has been closed. This action is not to be construed as a determination that a violation may not have occurred, just as the pendency of an investigation should not be construed as a determination that a violation has occurred. The Commission reserves the right to take such further action as the public interest may require."

 

fortunately, the FCC's opinion about whether or not the UFC is a monopoly outweights EazyG's.

 

and finally, if your assertion that the UFC underpays fighters had ANY truth or made ANY sense - why is it a FACT that most fighters around the world scramble to sign up with the UFC as soon as they can?

7/11/13 4:58 PM
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Thacommish
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MTomlinson - 
EazyG - Cindy-

Can you justify the monopoly/monopsony position of the UFC? That is really the heart of the figher pay argument that you have not addressed.

If the UFC is a monopoly, they are probably grossly underpaying the fighters which is my sense. Can you give us a reasonable counter-argument???

Cindy has got to be tired of answering easy and obvious questions like this one so i'll try to chime in.

 

Even though you, EazyG, thinks that the UFC is a monopoly, the FCC does NOT.

 

"The Federal Trade Commission’s Bureau of Competition has been conducting a nonpublic investigation to determine whether Zuffa, LLC’s acquisition of Explosion Entertainment, LLC may violate Section 7 of the Clayton Act or Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act. Upon further review of this matter, it now appears that no further action is warranted by the Commission at this time. Accordingly, the investigation has been closed. This action is not to be construed as a determination that a violation may not have occurred, just as the pendency of an investigation should not be construed as a determination that a violation has occurred. The Commission reserves the right to take such further action as the public interest may require."

 

fortunately, the FCC's opinion about whether or not the UFC is a monopoly outweights EazyG's.

 

and finally, if your assertion that the UFC underpays fighters had ANY truth or made ANY sense - why is it a FACT that most fighters around the world scramble to sign up with the UFC as soon as they can?


What he is saying is that without strong competition the ufc has no reason to increase fighter pay because they have the top of the market cornered. Its why lombard and alvarez get insane deals walking in through the door, it isnt their value to zuffa it isnt their skills or drawing power. Simply competition between ufc and bellator has dictated it. You are right though ufc is not a monopoly by the fcc, but do you not see how this situation works similarly? Do you not see how all of a sudden fighter pay becomes available when competition dictates? it makes me think whenever anyone says the money isnt there to increase fighter pay, it makes me think twice. Competition is the reason why lombard got an insane deal walking in and renan barao did not. Skill has shown which one is at the top of the division and their records and career arcs were similar before hand, he has a point while its not technically a monopoly you can see how it works right?
7/11/13 5:04 PM
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melendez
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I don't understand how the fan base here can not state universally that something needs to be done about fighter pay. You guys want to see fighters kill themselves for you...you throw things at your TV when they don't throw bombs and haymakers for your entertainment. Further, half of you don't even pay for PPV's, you just stream them online. You thrash fightcards that didn't live up to your expectations etc etc etc.

I also understand and agree with the argument that Cindy is making about a guy signing a contract. If you sign you have to honor that contract and renegotiate a better deal after you have earned more money. But the start-off pay should be more than what it is right now. This is tough to argue when the UFC is passing out Bentleys to certain fighters after they win a fight.

The terrible thing here is that obviously these guys are not enabled to speak out publically for themselves. Anyone who saw what Tim posted about 2 weeks ago will also notice that within about 24 hours of his comments about fighter pay he was immediately issuing a public apology for his statements. Where do you guys think that apology came from?

“If I say something that makes my bosses mad, and they say ‘you need to say something about it,’ then I will," Kennedy said.

Guys are not even permitted to speak their opinion on a situation that directly affects them as well as their families. In other sports the guys have a leg to stand on. In this one they don't and its sort of a shame.

7/11/13 5:04 PM
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Thacommish
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Its just weird how the market will set a value for fighters because of competition waaaaaaaay higher than ufc finds the value of their own interim champs or employees for the most part. Makes me feel like they are getting undersold a bit.
7/11/13 5:04 PM
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EazyG
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^^^ Read it a bit more carefully.

They are somewhat ambiguous and elect to take no action at this time. Not exactly a resounding defense that the UFC is not a monopoly. The Clayton Act and the FTC Act are written somewhat narrowly as well.

You sound like a UFC shill. I hope your economic knowledge outweigh[t]s your spelling capacity.

"This action is not to be construed as a determination that a violation may not have occurred, just as the pendency of an investigation should not be construed as a determination that a violation has occurred. The Commission reserves the right to take such further action as the public interest may require."
7/11/13 5:06 PM
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Macedawgg
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Edited: 07/11/13 5:36 PM
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MTomlinson - 
EazyG - Cindy-

Can you justify the monopoly/monopsony position of the UFC? That is really the heart of the figher pay argument that you have not addressed.

If the UFC is a monopoly, they are probably grossly underpaying the fighters which is my sense. Can you give us a reasonable counter-argument???

Cindy has got to be tired of answering easy and obvious questions like this one so i'll try to chime in.

 

Even though you, EazyG, thinks that the UFC is a monopoly, the FCC does NOT.

 

"The Federal Trade Commission’s Bureau of Competition has been conducting a nonpublic investigation to determine whether Zuffa, LLC’s acquisition of Explosion Entertainment, LLC may violate Section 7 of the Clayton Act or Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act. Upon further review of this matter, it now appears that no further action is warranted by the Commission at this time. Accordingly, the investigation has been closed. This action is not to be construed as a determination that a violation may not have occurred, just as the pendency of an investigation should not be construed as a determination that a violation has occurred. The Commission reserves the right to take such further action as the public interest may require."

 

fortunately, the FCC's opinion about whether or not the UFC is a monopoly outweights EazyG's.

 

and finally, if your assertion that the UFC underpays fighters had ANY truth or made ANY sense - why is it a FACT that most fighters around the world scramble to sign up with the UFC as soon as they can?

 

Not true MT. 

In fact, the FTC's investigation was limited to Zuffa's acqusition of Explosion (Strikeforce). 

Further, the FTC specifically noted in its letter the following: 

This action is not to be construed as a determination that a violation may not have occurred, just as the pendency of an investigation should not be construed as a determination that a violation has occurred. The Commission reserves the right to take such further action as the public interest may require.

http://www.ftc.gov/os/closings/comm/120125explosionllc.pdf


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