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UnderGround Forums >> Chuck Liddell: The UFC is not a welfare state


7/11/13 5:07 PM
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melendez
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MTomlinson - 
EazyG - Cindy-

Can you justify the monopoly/monopsony position of the UFC? That is really the heart of the figher pay argument that you have not addressed.

If the UFC is a monopoly, they are probably grossly underpaying the fighters which is my sense. Can you give us a reasonable counter-argument???

Cindy has got to be tired of answering easy and obvious questions like this one so i'll try to chime in.

 

Even though you, EazyG, thinks that the UFC is a monopoly, the FCC does NOT.

 

"The Federal Trade Commission’s Bureau of Competition has been conducting a nonpublic investigation to determine whether Zuffa, LLC’s acquisition of Explosion Entertainment, LLC may violate Section 7 of the Clayton Act or Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act. Upon further review of this matter, it now appears that no further action is warranted by the Commission at this time. Accordingly, the investigation has been closed. This action is not to be construed as a determination that a violation may not have occurred, just as the pendency of an investigation should not be construed as a determination that a violation has occurred. The Commission reserves the right to take such further action as the public interest may require."

 

fortunately, the FCC's opinion about whether or not the UFC is a monopoly outweights EazyG's.

 

and finally, if your assertion that the UFC underpays fighters had ANY truth or made ANY sense - why is it a FACT that most fighters around the world scramble to sign up with the UFC as soon as they can?


Question: why is it a FACT that most fighters around the world scramble to sign up with the UFC as soon as they can?

Answer: "ehhh...OO-EF-SHEE eez dee beeg sportch een dee worl'...eez dee beeg show...eez normal...im train berry hard for deez fightch..."

7/11/13 5:07 PM
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EazyG
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The UFC shills here do not appear to understand economics.
7/11/13 6:04 PM
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EazyG
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Question: does MTomlinson have an economic interest in the UFC?

His post makes me wonder.
7/11/13 6:05 PM
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MTomlinson
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Guys, i'm an MMA fan, not a UFC shill.

I didn't miss the last line of the FTC's report, which is why I posted it in my original response about the UFC not being a monopoly.

Maybe you guys can help me get past a simple question that doesn't involve any extensive economics:

If the UFC under-pays fighters like you and many others are suggesting, why do the large majority of fighters, both pro and amateur, want to work and fight for the UFC?

Please put more than a few moments of thought into your answer!

 

7/11/13 6:08 PM
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Nonlinear
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It takes brass balls to fight in the UFC.

7/11/13 6:15 PM
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EazyG
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OK,

I will take this.

Do you remember MLB before the Curt Flood anti-trust case? Players were stuck with the team that signed them for basically their entire playing career, unless the team traded them. And they werent paid that well.

Look up the pay levels for the stars back in the 40s, 50s and 60s. Then inflate these wages to today. Then compare them with Pujols and the other stars. They are lower by multiples.

The Curt Flood anti-trust case was the beginning of the end for the MLP owner monopoly power, as the players could now be bid away to other competing teams.

But to answer your question, sorry but it takes a while. Did athletes avoid the MLP before the Curt Flood case when they were underpaid??? No because the MLP was the only real game in town. Kind of sounds familiar....

Here is a classic example - a great Pirate player won the triple crown in the 60s but his team finished last. The owner cut his pay next year and said I can finish last without you.... But did athletes avoid the MLB because of this type of monopoly behavior? I suggest no.
7/11/13 7:10 PM
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deadlysyn
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People complaining about lower tiered guys making more money in other sports compared to MMA are forgetting one thing, you are comparing a team sport! Yeah you have stars on a team such as the NFL and NBA but they don't function with out the rest of the team including the bench. They are all part of a whole. On top of that at the end of the day is the "team" that sells more then the individual it not all about the stars. Yes the stars help in making the team great but it's still the team that's why stars in team sport are a lot more replaceable. If Tom Brady gets cut from the Patriots the franchise is not going to crumble. This happens all the time. Team sports have the backing of the group that are fans of that sport in the city or state of the team.

In MMA it's the single guy. Fill a card with all the no names and guys who only fought on under cards guess now many ticket sales and ppv buys you will have? A mere fraction if even that. So no undercard guys don't necessarily need to be paid more in that argument. And I personally know a lot of guys who are so happy to make it into the UFC and make undercard money. Phone Post 3.0
7/11/13 7:29 PM
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Leghound
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Bellator Fan - "(Lower paid) guys have got to understand, this is a performance based sport, like all sports,"

Most other sports have unions and lower tier athletes get paid much better in comparison. These guys are taking similar risks to football players but not being compensated fairly. Phone Post 3.0

Similar risks?  They fight 15 minutes every couple months instead of playing 60 minute games 20 times a year. 

7/11/13 8:33 PM
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UGCTT_buchu8oolong
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Something Chris Lytle said on TUF stuck out to me then, and still dose. Basically to the effect of wondering how far he could go could he afford to train full time. Obviously, I have no idea what his opinion on the subject is and am not trying to imply mine would reflect his.

The reason that one sticks out though is that he has been one of my favorite fighters for a very long time and it struck me as a shame that the sport was still not at the point where talent could not always put there full focus on improvement at the UFC level. I would just like to see, as a fan, it get to the point that even the bottom card fighters make enough to be able to be "all in" once they reach the UFC to see what that yields in their performance. Phone Post 3.0
7/11/13 9:17 PM
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BTT-RyannVonDoom
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Leghound - 
Bellator Fan - "(Lower paid) guys have got to understand, this is a performance based sport, like all sports,"

Most other sports have unions and lower tier athletes get paid much better in comparison. These guys are taking similar risks to football players but not being compensated fairly. Phone Post 3.0

Similar risks?  They fight 15 minutes every couple months instead of playing 60 minute games 20 times a year. 


And months of traneing UFC for the fight, fucktard. How hard is that to fucking understand?

7/11/13 9:24 PM
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time traveling 12er
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Bellator Fan - "(Lower paid) guys have got to understand, this is a performance based sport, like all sports,"

Most other sports have unions and lower tier athletes get paid much better in comparison. These guys are taking similar risks to football players but not being compensated fairly. Phone Post 3.0

Lower tier athletes don't make it into the unionized sports. Also why doesn't bellator pay more or offer health insurance. That seems like the fastest way to get the UFC to pay more.
7/11/13 11:26 PM
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EazyG
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^^^ you didnt address a single key economic issue in your post. Can you demonstrate a working knowledge of economcs and how they apply to this situation? So far you have failed,in analyzing if the UFC is a monopoly/monopsony.

Can you explain why the UFC isnt a de facto Monopoly that underpays its fighters versus what a free market wage would be?

If not why dont you let the adults discuss the issue?
7/11/13 11:28 PM
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melendez
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EazyG - ^^^ you didnt address a single key economic issue in your post. Can you demonstrate a working knowledge of economcs and how they apply to this situation? So far you have failed,in analyzing if the UFC is a monopoly/monopsony.

Can you explain why the UFC isnt a de facto Monopoly that underpays its fighters versus what a free market wage would be?

If not why dont you let the adults discuss the issue?

Im completely intimidated by your intellect but...."eets normal."

7/11/13 11:58 PM
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EazyG
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^^ I was a bit of a jerk in my post, but FinestScotch completely skipped the key economic issues we were discussing. Yet he seemed to think he was posting an economic argument when he really wasnt.
7/12/13 12:50 AM
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Mr Bungle
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SonOfThePeepHole -  Agreed.

BUT

the UFC is so much bigger now they can AFFORD to pay lower level guys better. Phone Post

What are you basing your assumption that since they are making so much money that they can now afford to pay the fighters more money?  Because you've seen a few (unverified) numbers of how much money they make each year?

Well, factor in that after paying the fighters, they have other employees to pay.  Half of their PPV revenue goes to the PPV provider.  Arena and Venue Taxes. Insurance. Monies that they have to pay to the AC's.  Plus, creditors, A monthly debt payment that is in the 10's of thousands of dollars.  That's just the the things we are aware of, I'm sure there are other costs involved with running the highest level of Mixed Martial Arts in the top Organization in the world.

Moving/Transportation fees, to pack up and move and unpack all the equipment, paying the union workers to pack and move and move and pack racks up a rather large bill, I imagine.

How about this.  We stop assuming we know the things we do not know, for sure we don't know everything involved in costs, and we wait until we actually get some definitive numbers. 
7/12/13 12:53 AM
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melendez
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Mr Bungle - 
SonOfThePeepHole -  Agreed.

BUT

the UFC is so much bigger now they can AFFORD to pay lower level guys better. Phone Post

What are you basing your assumption that since they are making so much money that they can now afford to pay the fighters more money?  Because you've seen a few (unverified) numbers of how much money they make each year?

Well, factor in that after paying the fighters, they have other employees to pay.  Half of their PPV revenue goes to the PPV provider.  Arena and Venue Taxes. Insurance. Monies that they have to pay to the AC's.  Plus, creditors, A monthly debt payment that is in the 10's of thousands of dollars.  That's just the the things we are aware of, I'm sure there are other costs involved with running the highest level of Mixed Martial Arts in the top Organization in the world.

Moving/Transportation fees, to pack up and move and unpack all the equipment, paying the union workers to pack and move and move and pack racks up a rather large bill, I imagine.

How about this.  We stop assuming we know the things we do not know, for sure we don't know everything involved in costs, and we wait until we actually get some definitive numbers. 

Should fighters be paid more? Si o No?

7/12/13 2:11 AM
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Mr Bungle
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@ EazyG:

"Here is a classic example - a great Pirate player won the triple crown in the 60s but his team finished last. The owner cut his pay next year and said I can finish last without you.... But did athletes avoid the MLB because of this type of monopoly behavior? I suggest no."

 

I hope you aren't suggesting the UFC is so callous and frivilous that they would risk the ire of fighters, real fans, other promoters, fighters in other promotions, trainers, and super entitled fans everywhere by treating fighters like how you describe in you example.  

Believe it or not, Zuffa actually cares about the image of the sport and protecting mma so that in the future, there will be a sport for people who choose combat sports as the career they want to pursue. You need future prospects who may have the potential to play Basketball or Football at the college level, but instead choose to enter into MMA. 

 So in other words, it is not only in their best intrests to invest in the future of the sport,  it is more of a mutual benefit thing.  Fans and Everyone else involved inbetween will all benefit from Zuffa's foreshadowing.   Fighters will gradually see a raise in pay, the longer this machine chugs along.  No one ever said it was gonna be easy and no one said  fighter pay would stay the same and never get better.  Some people here may not be aware, but like Chuck said,  Some of the more Regional Organizations and Slightly Smaller than UFC type Organizations paid Terrible amounts of pay,, long before UFC was popular again.  Right before Zuffa bought out SEG, and for a little while after owning them, UFC pay was pretty bad at the time, but back then, people absolutely understood that fighter pay would take a few years before it was enough to cement some fighters livelyhood.

7/12/13 2:28 AM
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Mr Bungle
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melendez - 
Mr Bungle - 
SonOfThePeepHole -  Agreed.

BUT

the UFC is so much bigger now they can AFFORD to pay lower level guys better. Phone Post

What are you basing your assumption that since they are making so much money that they can now afford to pay the fighters more money?  Because you've seen a few (unverified) numbers of how much money they make each year?

Well, factor in that after paying the fighters, they have other employees to pay.  Half of their PPV revenue goes to the PPV provider.  Arena and Venue Taxes. Insurance. Monies that they have to pay to the AC's.  Plus, creditors, A monthly debt payment that is in the 10's of thousands of dollars.  That's just the the things we are aware of, I'm sure there are other costs involved with running the highest level of Mixed Martial Arts in the top Organization in the world.

Moving/Transportation fees, to pack up and move and unpack all the equipment, paying the union workers to pack and move and move and pack racks up a rather large bill, I imagine.

How about this.  We stop assuming we know the things we do not know, for sure we don't know everything involved in costs, and we wait until we actually get some definitive numbers. 

Should fighters be paid more? Si o No?


Only a fool would say fighters shouldn't be paid more.  Of course they should be paid more.  Why you would think I somehow implied they shouldn't get paid, I have no idea.  I don't think anything that I wrote implied I feel different about fighter pay than any rational person.  All I did was point out how no one seems to remember to factor in expenses and costs and taxes and all these other things before they begin to assume UFC can automatically afford to pay them more.  All while using numbers that have no way of being verified.  I pointed out on another post that Fighter Pay will go up, exponentially, over the next few years.  I have no way of knowing this other than by looking at towards history for answers.  And past history of the 4 major sports tells us, yes indeed, UFC will begin to pay their fighters a larger piece of revenue. 

7/12/13 2:44 AM
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Skeletor
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Fighters outside the main event or co-main might not generate many sales based on their name, but that doesn't mean they aren't important.

Kicking off the card with a barn-burner of a fight or two really helps to set the mood for the audience and build enjoyment, especially if the marquee fights don't live up to the hype. People who enjoyed a card are much more likely to watch/purchase future events, and exciting lower-tier bouts play a big role in that.
7/12/13 4:28 AM
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time traveling 12er
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BTT-RyannVonDoom - 
Leghound - 
Bellator Fan - "(Lower paid) guys have got to understand, this is a performance based sport, like all sports,"

Most other sports have unions and lower tier athletes get paid much better in comparison. These guys are taking similar risks to football players but not being compensated fairly. Phone Post 3.0

Similar risks?  They fight 15 minutes every couple months instead of playing 60 minute games 20 times a year. 


And months of traneing UFC for the fight, fucktard. How hard is that to fucking understand?


Yeah and guys in other sports don't train. And when they do train they get paid for it right? Lol.
7/12/13 4:36 AM
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Macedawgg
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Rocky's post is very accurate given the current structure of the MMA market. 

That structure, however, isn't the only one available--it has been dictated and installed quite intentionally.

7/12/13 5:25 AM
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Devlin
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BTT-RyannVonDoom -
Leghound - 
Bellator Fan - "(Lower paid) guys have got to understand, this is a performance based sport, like all sports,"

Most other sports have unions and lower tier athletes get paid much better in comparison. These guys are taking similar risks to football players but not being compensated fairly. Phone Post 3.0

Similar risks?  They fight 15 minutes every couple months instead of playing 60 minute games 20 times a year. 


And months of traneing UFC for the fight, fucktard. How hard is that to fucking understand?

Thats obvious and wrong of.him to miss, but every sport requires insane levels of training to compete at the highest levels, not just MMA. Phone Post
7/12/13 10:15 AM
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EazyG
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RockyBullwinkle -

Nice summary of the UFC monopsony. I think you said it better than I did.

Its pretty much Economics 101, or at least Industrial Organization 101.

Many folks here supporting the UFC wages have not even attempted to address the potential monopsony issue. Without addressing this pivotal issue, their arguments are basically irrelevant.
7/12/13 10:31 AM
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melendez
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EazyG - RockyBullwinkle -

Nice summary of the UFC monopsony. I think you said it better than I did.

Its pretty much Economics 101, or at least Industrial Organization 101.

Many folks here supporting the UFC wages have not even attempted to address the potential monopsony issue. Without addressing this pivotal issue, their arguments are basically irrelevant.

I guess for me its just weird that all these dudes are crazed MMA fans. They love the sport and everything about it. But then they don't want to see better compensation for the people that are providing them with entertainment from week to week. That is the part I find most confusing.

7/12/13 11:10 AM
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EazyG
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melendez - 
EazyG - RockyBullwinkle -

Nice summary of the UFC monopsony. I think you said it better than I did.

Its pretty much Economics 101, or at least Industrial Organization 101.

Many folks here supporting the UFC wages have not even attempted to address the potential monopsony issue. Without addressing this pivotal issue, their arguments are basically irrelevant.

I guess for me its just weird that all these dudes are crazed MMA fans. They love the sport and everything about it. But then they don't want to see better compensation for the people that are providing them with entertainment from week to week. That is the part I find most confusing.


I completely agree with you. I think higher pay would bring better athletes, too. Currently I would guess the best athletes would tend towards high paying sports like MLB, NBA, NFL....

I expect many of these guys are 'free market' types, too, which is bizarre because the UFC is about as far from the free market ideal as you can get in a sport.

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