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UnderGround Forums >> Chuck Liddell: The UFC is not a welfare state


7/12/13 2:28 AM
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Mr Bungle
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melendez - 
Mr Bungle - 
SonOfThePeepHole -  Agreed.

BUT

the UFC is so much bigger now they can AFFORD to pay lower level guys better. Phone Post

What are you basing your assumption that since they are making so much money that they can now afford to pay the fighters more money?  Because you've seen a few (unverified) numbers of how much money they make each year?

Well, factor in that after paying the fighters, they have other employees to pay.  Half of their PPV revenue goes to the PPV provider.  Arena and Venue Taxes. Insurance. Monies that they have to pay to the AC's.  Plus, creditors, A monthly debt payment that is in the 10's of thousands of dollars.  That's just the the things we are aware of, I'm sure there are other costs involved with running the highest level of Mixed Martial Arts in the top Organization in the world.

Moving/Transportation fees, to pack up and move and unpack all the equipment, paying the union workers to pack and move and move and pack racks up a rather large bill, I imagine.

How about this.  We stop assuming we know the things we do not know, for sure we don't know everything involved in costs, and we wait until we actually get some definitive numbers. 

Should fighters be paid more? Si o No?


Only a fool would say fighters shouldn't be paid more.  Of course they should be paid more.  Why you would think I somehow implied they shouldn't get paid, I have no idea.  I don't think anything that I wrote implied I feel different about fighter pay than any rational person.  All I did was point out how no one seems to remember to factor in expenses and costs and taxes and all these other things before they begin to assume UFC can automatically afford to pay them more.  All while using numbers that have no way of being verified.  I pointed out on another post that Fighter Pay will go up, exponentially, over the next few years.  I have no way of knowing this other than by looking at towards history for answers.  And past history of the 4 major sports tells us, yes indeed, UFC will begin to pay their fighters a larger piece of revenue. 

7/12/13 2:44 AM
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Skeletor
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Fighters outside the main event or co-main might not generate many sales based on their name, but that doesn't mean they aren't important.

Kicking off the card with a barn-burner of a fight or two really helps to set the mood for the audience and build enjoyment, especially if the marquee fights don't live up to the hype. People who enjoyed a card are much more likely to watch/purchase future events, and exciting lower-tier bouts play a big role in that.
7/12/13 4:28 AM
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time traveling 12er
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BTT-RyannVonDoom - 
Leghound - 
Bellator Fan - "(Lower paid) guys have got to understand, this is a performance based sport, like all sports,"

Most other sports have unions and lower tier athletes get paid much better in comparison. These guys are taking similar risks to football players but not being compensated fairly. Phone Post 3.0

Similar risks?  They fight 15 minutes every couple months instead of playing 60 minute games 20 times a year. 


And months of traneing UFC for the fight, fucktard. How hard is that to fucking understand?


Yeah and guys in other sports don't train. And when they do train they get paid for it right? Lol.
7/12/13 4:33 AM
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mrwhipple
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RockyBullwinkle - 
MTomlinson - 

Guys, i'm an MMA fan, not a UFC shill.

I didn't miss the last line of the FTC's report, which is why I posted it in my original response about the UFC not being a monopoly.

Maybe you guys can help me get past a simple question that doesn't involve any extensive economics:

If the UFC under-pays fighters like you and many others are suggesting, why do the large majority of fighters, both pro and amateur, want to work and fight for the UFC?

Please put more than a few moments of thought into your answer!

 


EazyG pretty much has it covered, but I will add a little to it.

In the Big Four sports the teams work together as leagues giving them a monopsony over elite level talent in their sports. A monopsony is the reverse of a monopoly, instead of only one seller there is only one buyer. In this case the NFL, MLB, and NBA are the dominant buyer of elite level talent. There's other places you can play those sports and get paid, but the difference between those leagues and everyone else is so great it constitutes a seperate market.

What balances the monopsony power of the leagues is the fact that the players have unions which gives them a monopoly on high level talent. They can tell the owners "well you might be the only buyer of elite players but we're the only seller of elite players so you have to negotiate fairly with us". In the past, before the unions this didn't happen. As EazyG explained before they got rid of the reserve clause players made good money but not nearly what the owners would have had to pay if they didn't have a monopsony.

This is why people argue fighters are underpaid and yet why fighters still sign with the UFC. If you are a football player and you're cut from the NFL you're other options are the Euro league, CFL, and Arena football. Those are places that will pay you to play football, but no one says its the same as playing the NFL. It's kind of the same with MMA, when you're cut from the UFC you're other options are the minor promotions. They offer as much of an option as Arena football does to the NFL.

People should stop their pointless arguing and read this because it describes the situation to a T.
7/12/13 4:36 AM
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Macedawgg
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Rocky's post is very accurate given the current structure of the MMA market. 

That structure, however, isn't the only one available--it has been dictated and installed quite intentionally.

7/12/13 5:25 AM
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Devlin
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BTT-RyannVonDoom -
Leghound - 
Bellator Fan - "(Lower paid) guys have got to understand, this is a performance based sport, like all sports,"

Most other sports have unions and lower tier athletes get paid much better in comparison. These guys are taking similar risks to football players but not being compensated fairly. Phone Post 3.0

Similar risks?  They fight 15 minutes every couple months instead of playing 60 minute games 20 times a year. 


And months of traneing UFC for the fight, fucktard. How hard is that to fucking understand?

Thats obvious and wrong of.him to miss, but every sport requires insane levels of training to compete at the highest levels, not just MMA. Phone Post
7/12/13 10:15 AM
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EazyG
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RockyBullwinkle -

Nice summary of the UFC monopsony. I think you said it better than I did.

Its pretty much Economics 101, or at least Industrial Organization 101.

Many folks here supporting the UFC wages have not even attempted to address the potential monopsony issue. Without addressing this pivotal issue, their arguments are basically irrelevant.
7/12/13 10:31 AM
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melendez
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EazyG - RockyBullwinkle -

Nice summary of the UFC monopsony. I think you said it better than I did.

Its pretty much Economics 101, or at least Industrial Organization 101.

Many folks here supporting the UFC wages have not even attempted to address the potential monopsony issue. Without addressing this pivotal issue, their arguments are basically irrelevant.

I guess for me its just weird that all these dudes are crazed MMA fans. They love the sport and everything about it. But then they don't want to see better compensation for the people that are providing them with entertainment from week to week. That is the part I find most confusing.

7/12/13 11:10 AM
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EazyG
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melendez - 
EazyG - RockyBullwinkle -

Nice summary of the UFC monopsony. I think you said it better than I did.

Its pretty much Economics 101, or at least Industrial Organization 101.

Many folks here supporting the UFC wages have not even attempted to address the potential monopsony issue. Without addressing this pivotal issue, their arguments are basically irrelevant.

I guess for me its just weird that all these dudes are crazed MMA fans. They love the sport and everything about it. But then they don't want to see better compensation for the people that are providing them with entertainment from week to week. That is the part I find most confusing.


I completely agree with you. I think higher pay would bring better athletes, too. Currently I would guess the best athletes would tend towards high paying sports like MLB, NBA, NFL....

I expect many of these guys are 'free market' types, too, which is bizarre because the UFC is about as far from the free market ideal as you can get in a sport.
7/12/13 11:16 AM
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epwar
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melendez - 
EazyG - RockyBullwinkle -

Nice summary of the UFC monopsony. I think you said it better than I did.

Its pretty much Economics 101, or at least Industrial Organization 101.

Many folks here supporting the UFC wages have not even attempted to address the potential monopsony issue. Without addressing this pivotal issue, their arguments are basically irrelevant.

I guess for me its just weird that all these dudes are crazed MMA fans. They love the sport and everything about it. But then they don't want to see better compensation for the people that are providing them with entertainment from week to week. That is the part I find most confusing.


Sadly, I think this behavior stems from some fans seriously thinking Dana White is their buddy.  With Dana's huge online presence and availability, some folks think they are pals with him and have to parrot any stance he takes.  Look at a thread when he appears and notice the number of  replies afterward of dudes going, "OH DANA YOU OWNED THAT GUY" and thinking they are giving him cyber high fives.

7/12/13 11:17 AM
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The Lurker Below
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Meanwhile, every young athletes dusts off their baseball cleats that were in the back of the closet.

Thanks Chuckles
7/12/13 11:21 AM
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The Lurker Below
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Do we wan't well paid, well trained athletes or do we want poorly paid, untrained athletes.

We want to attract the best talent to the sport but we don't want to pay them until they are headlining PPVs. Telling everyone this sport isn't for you fucking sucks. I want to see this thing keep evolving.
7/12/13 11:27 AM
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NYjojo
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epwar - 
melendez - 
EazyG - RockyBullwinkle -

Nice summary of the UFC monopsony. I think you said it better than I did.

Its pretty much Economics 101, or at least Industrial Organization 101.

Many folks here supporting the UFC wages have not even attempted to address the potential monopsony issue. Without addressing this pivotal issue, their arguments are basically irrelevant.

I guess for me its just weird that all these dudes are crazed MMA fans. They love the sport and everything about it. But then they don't want to see better compensation for the people that are providing them with entertainment from week to week. That is the part I find most confusing.


Sadly, I think this behavior stems from some fans seriously thinking Dana White is their buddy.  With Dana's huge online presence and availability, some folks think they are pals with him and have to parrot any stance he takes.  Look at a thread when he appears and notice the number of  replies afterward of dudes going, "OH DANA YOU OWNED THAT GUY" and thinking they are giving him cyber high fives.


Dana and crew built the ufc into a sport we love, he is a good buddy same as Wand is when he goes all out to entertain us. Chuck, Randy and the gang built the sport too, and they were the guys I paid money to see. I buy ppv when there's one or two fighters I have to see, I could care less about most of the other fights and their individual financial dealings.

Fighters make money according to their merit 90% of the time. Most people hate how a baseball player can get injured and be out years or even just play poorly and make 10 million a year. I'm sure the guys that you have to see fight are making great money in the UFC. It's just one of those things -- why are people so concerned about what so and so is making? People talking about how much money a movie made at the box office, like it's of importance to them for some reason.
7/12/13 11:37 AM
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epwar
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Edited: 07/12/13 11:37 AM
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NYjojo - 
epwar - 
melendez - 
EazyG - RockyBullwinkle -

Nice summary of the UFC monopsony. I think you said it better than I did.

Its pretty much Economics 101, or at least Industrial Organization 101.

Many folks here supporting the UFC wages have not even attempted to address the potential monopsony issue. Without addressing this pivotal issue, their arguments are basically irrelevant.

I guess for me its just weird that all these dudes are crazed MMA fans. They love the sport and everything about it. But then they don't want to see better compensation for the people that are providing them with entertainment from week to week. That is the part I find most confusing.


Sadly, I think this behavior stems from some fans seriously thinking Dana White is their buddy.  With Dana's huge online presence and availability, some folks think they are pals with him and have to parrot any stance he takes.  Look at a thread when he appears and notice the number of  replies afterward of dudes going, "OH DANA YOU OWNED THAT GUY" and thinking they are giving him cyber high fives.


Dana and crew built the ufc into a sport we love, he is a good buddy same as Wand is when he goes all out to entertain us. Chuck, Randy and the gang built the sport too, and they were the guys I paid money to see. I buy ppv when there's one or two fighters I have to see, I could care less about most of the other fights and their individual financial dealings.

 

7/12/13 12:22 PM
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EazyG
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^^^ Great reply to empty arguments.
7/12/13 12:35 PM
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MrMead
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EazyG - ^^^ Great reply to empty arguments.

I have really liked a lot of what you are saying in your posts on both the UG and OG. Keep up the good work man.
7/12/13 12:45 PM
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Infamous Ed
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Damn I miss seeing him fight Phone Post 3.0
7/12/13 1:04 PM
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EazyG
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MrMead - 
EazyG - ^^^ Great reply to empty arguments.

I have really liked a lot of what you are saying in your posts on both the UG and OG. Keep up the good work man.

Much appreciated.

7/12/13 1:21 PM
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melendez
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Edited: 07/12/13 1:21 PM
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NYjojo - 
epwar - 
melendez - 
EazyG - RockyBullwinkle -

Nice summary of the UFC monopsony. I think you said it better than I did.

Its pretty much Economics 101, or at least Industrial Organization 101.

Many folks here supporting the UFC wages have not even attempted to address the potential monopsony issue. Without addressing this pivotal issue, their arguments are basically irrelevant.

I guess for me its just weird that all these dudes are crazed MMA fans. They love the sport and everything about it. But then they don't want to see better compensation for the people that are providing them with entertainment from week to week. That is the part I find most confusing.


Sadly, I think this behavior stems from some fans seriously thinking Dana White is their buddy.  With Dana's huge online presence and availability, some folks think they are pals with him and have to parrot any stance he takes.  Look at a thread when he appears and notice the number of  replies afterward of dudes going, "OH DANA YOU OWNED THAT GUY" and thinking they are giving him cyber high fives.


Dana and crew built the ufc into a sport we love, he is a good buddy same as Wand is when he goes all out to entertain us. Chuck, Randy and the gang built the sport too, and they were the guys I paid money to see. I buy ppv when there's one or two fighters I have to see, I could care less about most of the other fights and their individual financial dealings.

Fighters make money according to their merit 90% of the time. Most people hate how a baseball player can get injured and be out years or even just play poorly and make 10 million a year. I'm sure the guys that you have to see fight are making great money in the UFC. It's just one of those things -- why are people so concerned about what so and so is making? People talking about how much money a movie made at the box office, like it's of importance to them for some reason.

 


What Dana and the Fertitta brothers have done for the sport that we all love is beyond description. They took a failing business that nobody cared about, flipped it around and turned it into a billion dollar industry. There is no disputing that and I will always be grateful and appreciate of them for their efforts. Same goes for all the guys who helped build the sport like Randy, Chuck, Tito (who you left out shame on you) and others.

 

All guys are saying is that they would like to see things get a little bit better for the fighters thats all. Nothing more.

Chucks comments were spot on and I agree with what he says about pay. However, Chuck is not in the same position as many of these guys. He will never have to worry about money ever in his life. He has as special job that was created just for him...He is in the good graces of the brass. For other guys I fear that there will be issues down the line. Am I worried too much about how much they make? Possibly. Do I have genuine concern for guys that have given their blood and sweat for my own entertainment? 200 percent.

As for ball players...I dont know what to say about your comment but Ill give you an example-I am a Soldier. If I get injured, I am able to get a doctors permission to stay home for a certain amount of time while I recover. This is called convalescent leave. Should I not get paid becuase I was injured? The same would go for a guy who worked at Wendy's. He slips and falls and breaks his leg at work. Is he then not paid because he can't work? Ohhhhhhhh they have that whole compensation thing for people who are injured on the job right? I wonder if you feel like if you were hurt at work and couldn' t do your job, you should be fired away for "not performing...."

7/12/13 1:31 PM
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Herman Munster
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Edited: 07/12/13 1:38 PM
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Lets see how much money Chuck would have made if he started his career today and had to go through Bones Jones to get himself famous.  The sport has grown Chuck.  It's evolved like all sports do.  When sports grow and evolve, so does the money.  Chuck's arguement is about as stupid as a pro football player talking about what he made in the 70's compared to today.   The talent pool has expanded, new divisions have been introduced and each division has gotten significantly better except for maybe LHW with the exception of Jones, which has always been a weak link division.  The UFC claims itself big league, but doesn't pay their employees enough to not have a secondary source of income.  .  By all means, keep the starting pay low where guys breaking into the UFC can't afford to train full time.  That's not big league, so just be honest about it and dont compare yourself to the biggest sports leagues in the World. The UFC is as big league as the CFL is.

7/12/13 2:03 PM
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UncleGrappler
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"Livable wage" I get so sick of people throwing this term around. They apply in in situations that don't apply. A fighter starting out, get's what they get. Nobody told them they would be paid enough to support themselves or their family starting out. Because someone makes a decision to become a fighter, it automatically makes the organization for which they fight obligated to pay them enough to live???? Supply and demand, simple and true. If a fighter by way of his performance, creates a demand, he or she has better control over the supply and therefore can negotiate more money. It's to a large degree self-regulating. Don't like it? Guess what, you're free to go make a living some other way. This is a highly entertainment-based sport. Everyone should understand it.
7/12/13 2:09 PM
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UncleGrappler
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The funny thing to me is that many posts here reflect the unfortunate changes in our culture. Too many people think they are "entitled". Something for nothing, or something for very little. Guy A thinks he should have everything Guy B has, but isn't willing to work as long and hard, or doesn't have the natural abilities, but still thinks he deserves the same.
7/12/13 2:24 PM
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EazyG
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^^^It continues to amaze me how uniformed some folks here are about economics. The key issue has nothing to do with a living wage.

The key issue is whether the UFC is a monopsony and exploits this to pay below free market wages. If true this is the antithesis of the free market outcome many here worship. This is the issue the Wagner Act and the FTC analyze when determining price fixing issues.

If you cannot construct a logical argument about the key UFC monopsony issue, you are not adding any value to the discussion.
7/12/13 3:55 PM
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time traveling 12er
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EazyG - ^^^It continues to amaze me how uniformed some folks here are about economics. The key issue has nothing to do with a living wage.

The key issue is whether the UFC is a monopsony and exploits this to pay below free market wages. If true this is the antithesis of the free market outcome many here worship. This is the issue the Wagner Act and the FTC analyze when determining price fixing issues.

If you cannot construct a logical argument about the key UFC monopsony issue, you are not adding any value to the discussion.

What is the UFC doing to force Bellator to pay less than them?

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