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UnderGround Forums >> What determines KO power?


7/15/13 7:40 AM
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Bobby Lupo
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Vitali Klit has the hightest KO% of any HW champ (Higher than Tyson, Foreman, Liston, Dempsey, Marciano) and he throws arm punches with very little weight behind them. If he was a beginner in a boxing gym, he'd be screamed at by a coach for thar shit. There's no technical explaination for the damage his punches do. He was just born with it.

7/15/13 7:58 AM
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Bry Bry
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^^this, power is natural..i had a buddy that looked like tim Sylvia yet he could knock a fucking tree down with his punches..he was slow but he had crazy power...when he was in junior high he was hitting the bag harder than many adults..it is just genetic with many folks...
7/15/13 8:20 AM
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Outlaw'd by Lytle
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Power comes all the way down from the foot, it spreads through the legs, ass, hips, core, back and shoulders.

It's the collective torque through these muscle groups that generate power, timing plays a crucial role in this.

It's the 'timing' that can come naturally not 'power'. Phone Post 3.0
7/15/13 8:31 AM
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Devlin
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For.one.hit.ko.power?

Force=mass x acceleration.

Its how much of your own strength you can put into each shot, via turning your hips/shoulders, some are naturally better than others.

Accuracy plays an important part too, so does technique.

And also footwork, how you catch opponents tends to affect perception of power too, look at weidmans last two ko win's, both guys moved straight into the shots, putting pleny of force into the ko's themselves. Phone Post
7/15/13 8:31 AM
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Devlin
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footwork/timing* ^ Phone Post
7/15/13 8:37 AM
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Bobby Lupo
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In youth boxing, tall lanky kids that have room to fill out are ALWAYS the hardest punchers, but they're also the kids in the US with the best pitching/QB/OF arms. Old timer at Gleason's who's trained everyone said that "If you can't throw a ball hard, you can't throw a punch hard."  For the most part, I agree. There's a kid in every school yard that just has a better throwing arm than all the other kids. He's the biggest puncher too.

7/15/13 8:44 AM
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TeamRenzo
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Accuracy and timing
7/15/13 9:06 AM
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Ziga
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I've seen these debate over and over again, and the basis on which it's usually wrong.
F=m a, means very little when talking about KO power.
Lets say a person weights 100 kg. Now, if you jump from 1m to the ground, the force is ~1000N. And if you jump from 100m, the force remains the same, no more. But the jump from 100m kills you, and from 1m it doesn't. But the same force. I hope you see, why F=m a, is not suitable for ko power.

We are talking about momentum, the real engine behind the newtons famed law. G=m v = Ft, and the momentum of the system (fighter 1, fighter 2, octagon)is transfered.
In other words, it's not the speed that kills a falling man, but how quickly he stops.

So in KO sense, it's about how quickly does your fist stop (not you stopping it), in relation, to the beginning speed of the head, after the impact, because these is what determines the momentum. Force has little do with it, when we talk about guys in the same weight class, it's neglectable. It's all about the momentum G=mv=Ft.

This is why a snapping punch cannot hurt your hand, because o matter the power it was thrown at, the object (head) cannot damage it, because the t in Ft is too small to have an effect. And the lower your t is, the lower your momentum (G) is at the moment just after the impact, the higher his is going to be, thus more damaging.

I have a degree in physics, but feel free to look it up yourself.

Again, this is from a physics point of view, it's still genetics and the ability, that make the above happen.
7/15/13 9:21 AM
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Devlin
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Ziga - I've seen these debate over and over again, and the basis on which it's usually wrong.
F=m a, means very little when talking about KO power.
Lets say a person weights 100 kg. Now, if you jump from 1m to the ground, the force is ~1000N. And if you jump from 100m, the force remains the same, no more. But the jump from 100m kills you, and from 1m it doesn't. But the same force. I hope you see, why F=m a, is not suitable for ko power.

We are talking about momentum, the real engine behind the newtons famed law. G=m v = Ft, and the momentum of the system (fighter 1, fighter 2, octagon)is transfered.
In other words, it's not the speed that kills a falling man, but how quickly he stops.

So in KO sense, it's about how quickly does your fist stop (not you stopping it), in relation, to the beginning speed of the head, after the impact, because these is what determines the momentum. Force has little do with it, when we talk about guys in the same weight class, it's neglectable. It's all about the momentum G=mv=Ft.

This is why a snapping punch cannot hurt your hand, because o matter the power it was thrown at, the object (head) cannot damage it, because the t in Ft is too small to have an effect. And the lower your t is, the lower your momentum (G) is at the moment just after the impact, the higher his is going to be, thus more damaging.

I have a degree in physics, but feel free to look it up yourself.

Again, this is from a physics point of view, it's still genetics and the ability, that make the above happen.
Surely a drop from 100 metres has higher accelleration than the drop from 1 metre? since your speed would increase the faster you fall.

Also surely its applicable since if.you decrease the mass of.a puncher.or his speed the force generated.by the shot.drops. Or do i just suck at physics. Phone Post
7/15/13 9:29 AM
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Ziga
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Edited: 07/15/13 9:33 AM
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No, the acceleration is the same, g=9,81 m/s. Yes your speed would be higher, and thus the change in momentum after the impact. But F=ma, is the same is the distance is 1 or 100m, there is no x in the equation. This is why force is not a proper way to think about punching.
Speed increases, that's what acceleration is, but the acceleration/deceleration stays the same, it's just a vector that tells you how much the speed will change in certain time.
Mass matters. I said, that within the same weight class, the force is neglectable, because their mass is more or less the same, so it does not play a factor, as to why one does and one doesn't, at the same weight.
7/15/13 10:36 AM
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Unseen
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Purgey -
Unseen - I've always thought there's at least two types of power (snapping and concussive).

There are also guys who may not have legendary power but have good accuracy like Anderson and every shot is on the button.

Finally there are guys with such good movement that they can catch you at a blind angle or always catch guys coming in like Roy Jones in his prime (like having the ability to sucker punch someone in the middle of a fight). Phone Post 3.0
Examples of snapping power?

Anderson is definitely different, he catches you coming in, on the button, with insane accuracy.

RJJ was one of the trickiest boxers ever, he was incredibly creative and fast with great reflexes. You mean like what he did to James Toney?

I think Gustafsson is a good example of that, he always catches guys coming in. Phone Post 3.0
It's hard to explain. A "perfect" punch has all of the aspects I listed above including both snapping and concussive power.

A technical punch starts in the legs, then comes through the rotation of the torso, then finally the arm with the rotation of the wrist (thumb goes from up to the side). This creates a snapping like force.

Some people do not have perfect technique but have strong strength and/or motion in one or two of the body parts I just mention. They lose the snap but have a thudding type power that just puts people out. I've also seen people with no natural power but perfect technique put people out. Phone Post 3.0
7/15/13 10:51 AM
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BatmanTookMyLunchMoney
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Sub Phone Post
7/15/13 10:52 AM
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BshMstr
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Ziga - I've seen these debate over and over again, and the basis on which it's usually wrong.
F=m a, means very little when talking about KO power.
Lets say a person weights 100 kg. Now, if you jump from 1m to the ground, the force is ~1000N. And if you jump from 100m, the force remains the same, no more. But the jump from 100m kills you, and from 1m it doesn't. But the same force. I hope you see, why F=m a, is not suitable for ko power.

We are talking about momentum, the real engine behind the newtons famed law. G=m v = Ft, and the momentum of the system (fighter 1, fighter 2, octagon)is transfered.
In other words, it's not the speed that kills a falling man, but how quickly he stops.

So in KO sense, it's about how quickly does your fist stop (not you stopping it), in relation, to the beginning speed of the head, after the impact, because these is what determines the momentum. Force has little do with it, when we talk about guys in the same weight class, it's neglectable. It's all about the momentum G=mv=Ft.

This is why a snapping punch cannot hurt your hand, because o matter the power it was thrown at, the object (head) cannot damage it, because the t in Ft is too small to have an effect. And the lower your t is, the lower your momentum (G) is at the moment just after the impact, the higher his is going to be, thus more damaging.

I have a degree in physics, but feel free to look it up yourself.

Again, this is from a physics point of view, it's still genetics and the ability, that make the above happen.

word up.

size matters, in MMA: http://fightnomics.com/featured/size-matters/


i do think technique matters as well, as one can't discount the effect it has on pin-pointing areas prone to KO's (A. Silva), or minimize energy expenditure (Diaz).
7/15/13 11:11 AM
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ChrisJPN
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Affliction Blackbelt - Its usually determined by the amount of logos and sponsored apparel that you wear.

Vitor should be dishing out comas.

7/15/13 11:28 AM
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TuLegit
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Punching power in itself is determined by your chest, shoulder and triceps muscles. Phone Post 3.0
7/15/13 11:33 AM
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Devlin
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Ziga - No, the acceleration is the same, g=9,81 m/s. Yes your speed would be higher, and thus the change in momentum after the impact. But F=ma, is the same is the distance is 1 or 100m, there is no x in the equation. This is why force is not a proper way to think about punching.
Speed increases, that's what acceleration is, but the acceleration/deceleration stays the same, it's just a vector that tells you how much the speed will change in certain time.
Mass matters. I said, that within the same weight class, the force is neglectable, because their mass is more or less the same, so it does not play a factor, as to why one does and one doesn't, at the same weight.
Ah right, i see my error.

Though surely better technique would allow fighters who have equal total mass put more of it into individual shots. Phone Post
7/15/13 11:44 AM
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Devlin
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ChrisJPN -
Affliction Blackbelt - Its usually determined by the amount of logos and sponsored apparel that you wear.

Vitor should be dishing out comas.

He is, lol. Phone Post
7/15/13 11:56 AM
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Scrap7
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Speed.. Speed is everything.. Speed kills.. Speed is a weird/ funny word, and I just realized it. Phone Post 3.0
7/15/13 12:05 PM
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TeamRenzo
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Scrap7 - Speed.. Speed is everything.. Speed kills.. Speed is a weird/ funny word, and I just realized it. Phone Post 3.0

Then why dont the lighter wwights have a higher KO % then HW's

7/15/13 12:37 PM
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Bobby Lupo
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How many plates ya throw up on da bench. 

7/15/13 12:39 PM
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Dmoney35
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STRENPH Phone Post 3.0
7/15/13 12:52 PM
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sniper1026
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Interesting article on punching power...

Old article...

Boxing Commentary & OpinionBoxing Science:
By Bad Left Hook on Mar 15 2011, 4:27a

http://www.badlefthook.com/2011/3/15/2051585/boxing-science-how-manny-pacquiaos-body-has-tricked-analysts-and
7/16/13 5:40 AM
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HULC
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Ziga - No, the acceleration is the same, g=9,81 m/s. Yes your speed would be higher, and thus the change in momentum after the impact. But F=ma, is the same is the distance is 1 or 100m, there is no x in the equation. This is why force is not a proper way to think about punching.
Speed increases, that's what acceleration is, but the acceleration/deceleration stays the same, it's just a vector that tells you how much the speed will change in certain time.
Mass matters. I said, that within the same weight class, the force is neglectable, because their mass is more or less the same, so it does not play a factor, as to why one does and one doesn't, at the same weight.

The mass of the fighters may be the same, but the amount of mass involved in a punch may differ dramatically between two fighters of the same weight.

It's the difference between slapping someone and shoulder charging them. The speed may be the same, but the mass involved is vastly different.

Also there are a whole host of smaller variables that play a role. For example the looser the hand/arm of the striker is held the more energy will be lost and not transferred into the target.

Better technique improves every aspect of punching power.
7/16/13 6:00 AM
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banco
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Scrap7 - Speed.. Speed is everything.. Speed kills.. Speed is a weird/ funny word, and I just realized it. Phone Post 3.0

Foreman and Earnie Shavers weren't particularly fast but were some of the biggest punchers ever.
7/16/13 6:27 AM
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Pencil Neck
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Edited: 07/16/13 6:28 AM
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There are less KOs among lighter weights than heavy weights because the head's ability to take punishment doesn't keep in step with the force that can be applied with the greater mass.

The brain slamming the inside of the skull is a brain slamming inside of a skull, no matter if the rest of your body is light or heavy. There may be some more protection a bigger person has due to larger head or bigger neck muscles or something like that, but the difference over a light person's isn't as dramatic as the greater force that can be generated by the increased bodyweight (provided technique remains the same).

In other words, the body's defensive capability doesn't keep up to the body's offensive capability when comparing small vs large person.

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